Karaoke Forums

Here in Port Hardy, B.C. Canada.. I was charging $350. a single show, and down depending on the number of shows a month they booked. In Edmonton Alberta, Canada. Shows run $500. to $700. per show.
My problem: My only competition in town now is charging only $150. per show. I can't afford to work that low. I know they only get what they pay for, but the bar business here is tough as we are a smaller community and  lower quality and lower price seem to be the way of it now that she has cut her pricing. And it was done just to keep me out of the clubs.   She does have a following, as most of them are related in some way or other, they let her only plays music she wants sung, that MOST of the locals don't want, except her little group. But price seems to outway quality here. The majority of customers would prefer my shows, as I have been told by them-selves, but the club owners only see the cheep rates and not the income that would be generated by a better show. I have a lot more money invested than she does and this could put me into bankrupsy. What can I do about it. Ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Well you could gather up all the folks who want your style and show and find a bar that would be suitable to accomodate your crowd and present the owner with an instant boom in business, and then name your price.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Need more info:

Is the other KJ your only competition?
Do you charge a bar the same as you would charge for a private party?
I'm confused that one person could put you out of business.


Is your business only you or do you run multiple systems?

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Get out of my way, I'm moving to B.C.    :drool:  LMAO

There was 3 of us here, but i bought out the one as she was tired of it and her health was bad. That leaves just 2. We are a small town with only 5 bars in town and 2 more near by. My prices are what we all were charging for bars or private. Now that there is just the 2 of us, and because she is family to so many people here, she wants all the business. Not a totally unfair thought, but the way she's going about it is. I can't afford the low prices as I'm just starting paying for my system. Hers is payed for long time ago. Unfortunately, the club owners don't care about why the prices are lower and don't seem to care about the quality of the show. So now, a lot of the singers just don't sing, as she doesn't like the songs they want, and wont play them. The problem is convincing the club owners that a better show, not a cheeper show, would bring in more customers and hence, sales. Unfortunately, they are small town busness owners and seem to be stuck in small business thinking. And that's what I don't know how to deal with.

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

My God, Port Hardy has grown, whoo hoo.  Last time I was there in 1980, there was I think, one bar.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Well, there really is only ONE good bar right now. But they are new and need to change thier prices to reflect the local income. The sinking of the ferry has really hurt tourism here. Tourism is the largest employer here. Or was..

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Sounds like Walmart karaoke just came to town.   You have to stick to your guns or go down in a blaze of glory.

Now that really sums it up well. . "Now in Port Hardy, Walmart Karaoke. Where the lowest price rules. "
I guess I have a hard time with the low pay for my shows as I have been involved with live music for a large part of my life. My family has been in it for a few generations as profesional live musicians. I know how many hours of prep I put into music, and how much i have spent on music and equipment, and just resent not being paid a fair wage.

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Welcome to the world of the undercutters and struggling wannabes.    We all hate it as much or more than you.    I heard of a guy doing one of my old bars for dinner and drinks.....  :shock:  :whistle:  LMAO    Must be spending his "money" on dope.

I would like to know what would happen to wages and attitudes if karaoke is added to AFTRA?

Is there any Union or Federation that supports or includes KJs. Would be interested in at lease looking at it. Not that it would go over well here.

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

There is one part of your argument that I'm not sure that I'm getting.  If I understand it correctly you've been something of a fixture in town up to this point.  Right?

I can understand how your competiton might be able to get jobs by undercutting the price.  What I think I'm missing here is the effect hiring her is having on the bar owners.  

For example, if an owner is used to paying you $350 and knows that his take on any given night will average X dollars he ought to notice some change in that when he hires the competition.  One of several things is likely to happen: 1)  sales will stay about the same in which case the owner is pocketing an extra $200 per night; 2) sales increase so the owner's net take also increases; 3) sales decrease but not so drastically that they completely offset the $200 the owner is saving; or 4) sales decline so much that the owner is losing out even considering the $200 savings.

I would be interested in knowing what result the owners saw when they hired your competitor versus hiring you.  If the owners are losing money on her they aren't going to want to stick with that very long.  I can see that it would be hard to convince someone you haven't worked for that hiring you can make their opeation more profitable.  But you shouldn't have too much trouble talking to the owners that have hired both of you.

I do understand your dilemma.  But you also have to understand that the owner is not now and never will be interested in the investment you've made in your equipment.  That's not his problem.  Making money is his problem and if you can demonstrate to him that he'll make more money with you then his decision should be easy.

One thing you can do is to offer to do a show at the same rate as your competition and then invite the owner to compare his receipts.  If they are a lot higher with you then you should be able to adjust the price back up to where you want it.

This is a very competitive business.  We have a bar in our town that won't hire me for karaoke.  The reason is very simple.  There is a local husband/wife karaoke show that plays this bar.  They do it about 4 times a year.  They charge $100 and bring their friends.  These people are all in their low to mid-thirties and they spend a lot of money at the bar.  The regulars at the bar are all in their mid-forties or over.  The music these people bring in is too loud and their friends are too rowdy.  So that doesn't set well with the regular customers.  They go somewhere elso on karaoke nights.  I talked to the owner and she told me that that the best night's she's ever had are when the husband/wife team are there.

I did karaoke there once.  It went over extremely well.  The regulars loved it and made no secret of that to the owner.  If they had their choice they would bring me back.  But they don't drink like the friends of the other karaoke company.  She won't hire me because I can't give her the income the other show can.  It might be different if the regulars left and stayed gone.  But she knows that as soon as karaoke night is over the regulars will be back.  I don't blame her for not hiring me.  I can't give her the income my competition can.  It's purely a business decision.  She does hire my duo—we play there once a month and she keeps hiring us because we bring in the best crowd she gets on live band nights.  But she won't hire me for karaoke, regardless of the fact that we are good friends.

It's frustrating, but it's business.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

I can only express my viewpoints on the matter from what I've personally experienced.
At the end of a show, live band or Karaoke, I've always made it a habit of talking to the bar owner. I'll ask, 'so how was business?' and sometimes the reply will be, 'we had a bad day'. This is not what you wanna hear, because it doesn't really answer your question. As a performer, I can't control what happens during the day when I'm not there. They may have had a slow lunch, or maybe the regulars didn't come in during happy hour..etc and so forth. What I try to do is find out, how was business during the time that I was performing. I'll ask, 'how was business during the hours that the show was going on', and that will usually lead up to a different answer. Some owners don't want to share the information, and some do. The ones that use the standard 'bad day' may only be saying that as an excuse or just trying to avoid the subject. Maybe it was a bad day, but like I said, that's something that you as a performer can't help. The ones that are open enough to let you in on money made during the shows are usually a little bit more business savvy and like you, want to know if having the show is actually paying off. Chances are, if the owner is honest with you, the numbers will show an increase and that's what you want to concentrate on when you have discussions with them. With my show being new, I of course had to work on building up a regular customer base. Sometimes you may find that the owner is a little lax in doing advertisement. Offer to put up your own flyers in the bar promoting the show, or ask if you can put your show up on the marque. What you're doing here is trying to get a commitment from the owner. If they're open to the idea, then you know you have a good working relationship, if they're reluctant, then maybe you should re-evaluate your situation at this particular bar. What I try to do is develop a co-partner relationship with the owners, with the idea, that it's in both our best interest that the show is a success.
If the subject of equipment were to ever come up, it can always be expressed, that yes, I've invested this amount into my gear, to make the show better, so that when folks do come in, I'm giving them the best experience that I can. They come in to a nice bar and deserve a nice show. Again, you want to establish, the co-partner interest, the win-win mentality of having a better show.
Now please keep in mind that I'm only speaking about my personal experiences, your situation may be totally different, and my ideas may be irrelevant.  I say anythings worth a shot and sometimes it may come down to the 'what have you got to lose' method of doing things.  
Also just as an added comment, today is my only day off during the holiday and yes I did make it a point to let the owner know that I had other gigs during this time. But also I made it a point to let them know, that my other shows came from customers seeing me here at the Marina. I just wanted to to put a bug in their ear, that of course while I'm out at other shows, I always let folks know where my regular performances were, here at the Marina. They liked that, and again, I established the co-partner aspect, the win-win for both of us.  
Sorry if I'm rambling, but this ole boy is tired, and I still have my 50th birthday party on Wednesday to look forward to. No rest for the weary and the wicked don't need none.

James
Maninblack

P.S. while my comments may have strayed from your original subject, I have to add a personal comment. I never discuss what I earn with folks. Not with other KJ's, other bar owners, no body. That's between me and the person who's hiring me.
I mean no disrespect, so please don't take it personal when I say that it's nobody's business but mine. But again, know that I say that with a smile
Ramen Noodles is off the menu at my house, so I'll just leave it at that.....

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I serve no man and am loyal to only one God.

Being critical of a person's success in any respect speaks volumes about the lack of your own.

Love as though you've never been hurt, Dance as though no one's watching, Sing as though God Himself were listening.

YEah I am a bit confused by the original post too.

It all comes down to this....
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for tha bar owner.

I have a regular thrs/fri nite gig every week, and the owner gets a discount off regular porice becasue we only have to setup/teardown once for 2 shows, and he allows us to store our equipment in the back room.  My competion comes in and, as the bar owner said, "was begging and whining" to get booked for a show.  The bar owner booked him for Sat nite (July 1).  He got paid $50 for a 4 hour show.  I am not scared that he is going to take my gig!!!  First off, he has about 1/2 the songs I do.  Old worn equipment, and the personality of a chain saw.  The wife and I checked it out.  We stopped in for a beer.  While there ther were 3 songs played/sung.  The first one, he qued in the wrong song, and took him 2 minutes to find the correct disc.  The 2nd song the mic quit working, and had to restart the song using the 2nd mic after about 1 minute a fiddiling of knobs.  THe 3rd song, a duet, DUH, only one working mic, had to run to the treailer to get another working mic. (about 5 mins).  Plugs that mic in and forgot he had the volume on that channel SPIKED to the top from the non-working mic.  I still have a headache from the feedback.  By now the bar owner is about ready to kill him.  AS the wife and I were walking out I give the bar owner a little (@$%&#!).  "Ya get what ya pay for".  He laughs and says "Ya sure do, I'll see ya next week."

Now my point...All the talking, whining, bitching, complaing, about undercutters is going to get you no where.  IF you make the bar owner more money you will have gigs.  IF you don't make them more money you won't have gigs.  IF you are not getting new gig, or loosing current ones, it is time to re-think your prices.

Ther abviously is some VALID reason, wether you want to admit it or not, of why you are getting booked.  Figure it out and get it fixed.

WHAT??

And, let me repeat.......... WHAT??

I had you figured for the type of person who thought whining and bitching got you EVERYwhere.

ECHO::

If I were you, I'd just stick to your guns, and don't compromise your own ideals of how you run a show, or what you charge. What goes around comes around, and you'll most likely come out on top in the end.

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

All of you make great points. And I understand.
I come from doing live music. The Karaoke business is still somewhat new to me. The price undercutting was never this bad with live music  when I was singing. I also come from years of business exp. of paying fair wages for fair work. So I'm just going into this without the exp. of dealing with undercutting by so much.
I understand that here, if I stick to my price, I WILL NOT get the work. Doesn't matter how good my show is at this point, as I'm the new guy in town. ( Only did a few shows befor I bought out the other lady) She has only cut her price as a way to keep me out of it. ( She admitted it to some bar staff that we got to know ). So if I want to play, I have to bring it down and compromise my ideals. Just not use to it. And being a small community, many trades don't have to do this as there is only one of them in town, so can demand any price they want. Newcomers see this price and put thiers up also. So the bar awnes are eating up the lower priced Karaoke as they are unuse to prices coming down on anything. And for them, that's fair.
I know that most of the problem here, is because it's a small community. At fair prices, there is enough work for both of us. But at these rates, there's not. Ands the investment has been made, so now I need the second job to pay for that investment for now. Was just wondering if there were ways to combat it that I had not thought of yet. Not use to being paid so much less than what fair value is. But it seems that this is a trend for the whole North Island as other communities are also coming down as so many more people start up Karaoke companies. Don't like it, but I guess I don't really have much choices for now if I want to be working in Karaoke locally.
OK, I'm done Whining . ( for now )

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

Sorry I had some comments to say to an earlier post, but I decided not to post them.
They're not worth the effort and chances are they would do nothing but complain and have my post deleted. So let it be known that I would rather delete my own original comments than have someone do it for me. Sorry but it just rubbed me the wrong way.
My apologies.

James
Maninblack

This is a selfedited post.

P.S. Echo, just so you know bro, this has nothing to do with your original question.
I just didn't know how to delete the whole post, so I subbed it for something different.
Nothing but positive vibes for you, I hope things work out.

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I serve no man and am loyal to only one God.

Being critical of a person's success in any respect speaks volumes about the lack of your own.

Love as though you've never been hurt, Dance as though no one's watching, Sing as though God Himself were listening.

James, thanks . I'm just unuse to haveing to deal directly with this kind of business practices and this kind of ethics. ( or lack there of ) It's all a learning process and I'm meaner, tougher and uglier than I use to be, so not as willing to run away. But still wanting to play fair. I do understand that ANY business can become cutthroat, just never liked doing business that way myself. I dislike conflict...
Again, thanks for the well wishes. [/quote]

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"Real life doesn't start untill the music plays." LSK.

$350 is a lot of money for 4-6 hours. That is more of a wedding reception/party type price and not for weekly entertainment. Here in Austin I know $150 is the standard but I do know at least one KJ who makes more, but he won't tell me how much more. He has lost two jobs in the last year that other KJ's took over. There is always someone else around who will do it for less.  If you get $350 you should expect to lose shows because bars have to look at bottom line unless YOU are the one related to the bar owner. There are always people trying to take over a show night.

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Who loves ya baby?