Karaoke Forums

Just a question on comp and limiter. In karaoke the signal from the backing track is relatively consistent. It is the mic signal that has the most dynamic. If the music ch is set below clipping and with some good amount of headroom then we will only have to deal with the mic ch. My question is why not set the comp to control the mic rather than the whole signal after it leave the mixer. I can only see the problem of clipping coming from the mic not from the music .

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I get confused about this but that's what thought too Jian. I have my limiter, DBX166, looping from the first two channel of my mixer, where my mics are connected. Is this not the right way to do it? I have the Midiverb on the output of the mixer and use effect for everything including music and vocal. Maybe this is not the best way to do it but I couldn't figure out any better way. I have Mackie 1604 VZL Pro. Any comments would be appreciated.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Totally true what you and Eben are suggesting. The reason why I put it in line is when you start playing really loud. I come from a live band background, where we needed to "limit/compress" everyone. In a karaoke environment, I would do the mics only, but we KJ and play live with the same system, so changing around is no use.

I have been using this exact setup for 14 years.    Never had a problem with Yamaha speakers.   Never blew a Yamaha speaker.    My 14 year old speakers are still working fine.     Used whatever crossover is in the speakers.    One amp, 4 speakers.    Club models.   2-18" bass cabinets and 2- 15" & horns on the top.    Compress the mikes.    I told you about the PV Speakers that I blew 4 - 18" Black Widows.    The Crown amps I quit using, were the red ones.   My guy at the music store said they were trouble and he doesn't sell them now.    I had 2 or 3 of them and I had trouble with all of them.    I'm running one of the newer Crown models now.

Not all music is recorded equally - especially some of the lesser brands, they don't really master very well before going to press so their music is almost close to live.  
But I do have individual compressors on the vocals as well, the 166 is for overall system protection.

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If you are only using 1 compressor then yes the mics would be my first choice via the mic channel insert jacks.
As far as your effects - You should use an Aux send/return loop - not on the main output of the mixer (which is the way I read it).  Use the effects on the mics only, RARELY would you want to effect the music.  Doing it through the Aux, you can send the mics only to the effect leaving the music CLEAN!

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Yeah them Black Widows generally will blow if they are underpowered.  They usually want at minumum 1000 watts.  I blew my Peavey 18" twice a few years back, but was only pushing 800 watts to them, once I upgrade my amp, the sub now receives 1450 watts - never blew one since.

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Alesis effects, compressors, Yamaha speakers, 1 amp?  You have been stating all this time you have "THE BEST"!?!?  May be the best in your area.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

OK, you caught me, I'm just a settle for guy.    Only thing my system is good for is to let screaming drunks practice blowing out speakers and destroying equipment.      

That's it.....Oh how can I ever repay everyone.....I think I just found a way to supplement my struggling karaoke business income.    I'll produce a video to teach singers how to get drunk and destroy every karaoke system they come in contact with.   The finer points of mike flipping and speaker blowing.     Step by step guide to electronic destruction.  Maybe I could make it a video game.    The winner  will be the one that achieves total destruction in the fastest time.  The one that can master it before the end of the very first song.  

I'm taking applications for financial backing.        You will need to have prior experience.  

You will have to show me exactly where I said I was the best (You're giving me a big head), because I don't remember using those exact words.    But I'll concede, I have been known to be wrong, once.   My area......I'm not in the middle of a corn field.   If by best you mean, way above my closest competition, then I'll accept.    Yes, all of the afore mentioned equipment is the very bottom of the line and is no longer in production, because noone would buy it.    All of those companies have gone belly up.     Oh, the humanity...  :(      They really saw me coming.    I'm so embarassed.    Please let me hang out with you guys and be ...a.... wannabe....please...

remember who said this?

But I'm not a settle-for kinda guy.   If I can't be the best that I can be, then I won't do it


I bought my way to the top.   I bought myself way ahead of the competition.    When I started, I went right to the top, around here and I'm still there, because noone else feels the need to spend that kind of money.  

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

What Jian quoted & the fact you use $600 microphones with $100 so-so processors & ok speaker systems with only 1 amp driving them...which amp do you run, it may have enough power!?!?!?!

Actually I think what Jian quoted you saying "AROUND HERE" is probably the key words there.  Around there you may be "top dog"!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

The best that [highlight=crimson]I [/highlight]can be , doesn't sound to me like I said I was the best everywhere or anywhere.     I never claimed to be better than anyone on here.   There is nooooo way...... that could ever happen....    If you have no desire to be the best at anything, you sound pretty pathetic to me.     I know for a fact where I stand and where my competeition is.     I want to be [highlight=crimson]THE BEST THAT I CAN BE[/highlight].    So don't put words in my mouth.   There are many on here that aren't living up to even that statement.    Self admitted they only want to do what is "good enough for karaoke."   I'd never spend that kind of money for my stuff.    To be a "settlefor, is my big dream."    Don't include me in that group.   Some of you are living in a fairy tale world.    Many have never heard a good system, to know what one sounds like.     I'm the best on my block....    Some of you can't even say that.    LMAO    

My volume controls have never been over half, so I must not have enough power.     To compensate for my lack of amplification power, I pass out horns (like great grandma used) for people to put next to their ears, so the sound is amplified.    Then if that doesn't work, I get them to form a circle, right in front of the speakers.    And last, I hired a person to stand in front of everyone to use sign language during every song.    So you can see that doing this 5 nights a week can be very expensive.   With the cost of the horns and a full time "signer", I pay her benefits.

You just gave me another real good idea.    Sell all of my useless equipment and just use a TV and my "signer."    Who needs amps and speakers and microphones.   Just useless stuff to waste my money.     I'll use tin cans and string for microphones.   What an idiot I have been for the past 14 years....WOW   Man I wasted my life and soooo much money.    :yes:    I'm beggin' now.....please teach me to be like you guys.... PLEASE    :worship:

Well I see you spend $600 for mics but buy lesser quality for your processing.  Yet you made this statement I don't have to waste my money on advertising.   I'd rather spend it on quality equipment.
Sorry Alesis is far from quality equipment, it's ok & does the job, but far from quality...which kind of really doesn't do much for the $600 mic.  



Well, with the speaker system you are running, they are configured in 8 ohms per box, so when they are connected together, they would be 4 ohms per stack.  The tops need a 500 watt amp into 8 ohms...well to be the best, most efficient sound & the subs need 600 watts into 8 ohms.  When configured together, they are now a 4 ohm system which would require a minimum 1100 watts into 4 ohms per channel.  Anything less & you are not pumping clean sound, it may sound good to untrained ears, but chances are it's distorting & you don't even realize it.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Thanks for the advice. I am using Aux send/return loop, which is at the back of my Mackie, not on the main output. One more question Lonman. At the top of my Mackie is Aux send. This is what I use to connect my monitor speaker. Do you think that would be the right way to do it? Thanks in advance.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Yes Aux 1 is typically used for the monitor send - you would still need a powered monitor or amp/speaker combo, while Aux 2 is left for the effect send/return loop.  It's a good idea to insert an eq between the mixer & monitor.

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3-T, clairify this.    Running a stereo amp.    Are you saying that each side requires 1100 watts?   So that would be a 2500 watt stereo amplifier?

Yep, to be efficient & give the speakers their full capacity...YES!  Ask ANY experienced sound engineer & they will say the same thing!!!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I sent an email to Yamaha about the amp, speaker question.     I told them to recommend the size amp for the setup I use.

Here is the spec chart for the amp I use.    They say this is the Maximum Guaranteed Power.  
                              Crown [highlight=crimson]Xs900[/highlight]        Xs1200

Stereo, 2 ohms, (per ch.)     [highlight=crimson]1200W [/highlight]      1600W
   "        4 ohms,      "             [highlight=crimson]900W[/highlight]      1100W
   "        8 ohms,      "             [highlight=crimson]600W[/highlight]       650W
Bridge-mono  8 ohms          [highlight=crimson]2500W[/highlight]         3000W
  "           "      4 ohms          [highlight=crimson]2100W [/highlight]      2300W

Pay attention kids, Bigdog is in electronics class.    :yes:    

Now if I read this right, I'm getting 900W to the speakers, now.   If the 1100W figure is correct, (I'll let Yamaha be the final desiding factor) that would mean they are under powered by 200 watts.    Is 200 watts going to make that much difference?  Will that amount of under power cause any noticeable muddiness or distortion?    

Second question.   During the song (music and vocals) is the wattage reaching the speakers staying steady at 900W or is it fluctuating?    Due to the highs and lows of the performance (song) volume.   Is there any way that it is reaching 1000W or 1100W?

Third question.    How much over the 1100W figure could the speakers safely take?   If there is a fluctuation.   Before they distort or blow.    

Fourth question.   Assuming the 1100W figure is the optimum or ideal wattage for this setup, is there a optimum operating range?    Like is it, 1000W to 1200W or 900W to 1100W or 1050W to 1150W?  

Question #5.    1100+1100=2200W     If you had a 2500W amp, would you have to turn down the amp output volumes, so as not to pump all 2500W to the speakers?      Like would you turn the amp to 3/4 or 7/8 volume?   Or do you have to match the 1100W exactly with a 2200W amp output?    

Question #6.    Does the volume of the mixer output, have any effect on the amp output power to the speakers?   If you run the amp volumes wide open and you turn the mixer up full, if you're running with an 1100W per side amp, will the speakers blow?    Or should it be able to run this way?    Assuming that 1100W is the optimum speaker range.

Yes it is possible that an amp will produce more wattage than it's rated, but anything over it's rating is going to be in the form of distortion as this is when clipping occurs.  A big mistake people make is they see a speaker that handles 250 continuous, 500 program (the rating you want your amp to push as a rule) & 1000 watts peak & they get an amp that only pushes say 200 watts (because the amp s cheaper), what happens is they tend to turn up the volume thinking their amp won't blow the speaker since it's not powerful enough.  This is where the biggest misconceptions come in, that amp will produce  clean power up to 200 watts, anything over it is now into clipping & feeding distortion to the speaker, heating up the voice coils & eventually frying the speaker.   If the amp is providing the correct wattage, the speaker works more efficiently, you do not have to turn the volume up nearly as loud, your sound will be crisp, clear & most important - distortion free.  Yes you can blow speakers with too much power as well, but underdriving a speaker is worse.

Generally for speakers you want the amp to push the program power rating.  Technically it shouldn't go under, it can go over a bit - you don't want to go nuts - maybe a couple hundred watts max.  You do blow speakers with too little power more so than too much power.  More power is better, it gives you cleaner sound at normal listening levels meaning you don't have to turn up the volume as high - you'd still run the amps wide open, you control the volume from the mixer.  When you start running less power than recommended, you run the risk of clipping - and you may not even realize it.  Now grant it 200 watts isn't going to be a huge difference volume wise when you get into the wattage needed, but your speakers may feel it.  More power equals headroom.  

I personally don't think you'd have a problem with your set-up as long as you aren't cranking them nightly.  Only thing different I would recommend would be a second amp & external crossover, you would be blown away by the sound difference.  Subs ROB power & 1 amp driving a 4 ohm load with subs is really hard on the amp by itself trying to reproduce all frequencies.

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I have to agree with Lonman on all but one minor quibble.  It isn't under-driving speakers that is the problem, but OVERdriving an under-powered amplifier.  With a good ear and proper self-control (there is a reason the word control is in "volume control") speakers will never have a problem on a smaller amplifier than what they were designed for.    In the absence of self-control (alcohol induced, perhaps? ), properly adjusted limiters before the amps can be a godsend.

That being said, it IS better to match the power rating of your amps and speakers  properly.   However, on my shoestring budget, this hasn't always been possible for me, but I have NEVER had a speaker fail because an amplifier had too low a power rating, and I have been at this for 18 years.