Karaoke Forums

One of these day's Bigdog,  remind me to ask you why you need, or even want a $600 microphone or anything over and above the Shure Beta series for a Bar setting, and Karaoke ?  I understand and concur with your feelings regarding "very good quality", but you just cited an EXACT reason (as you have before when referencing drunks damaging something of that nature) why first and foremost a $600 dollar microphone in a crowded bar atmosphere with loads of background noise, where drunks abound is not affordable to most, and if it's superfluous (such as a bartender serving draught beer thursday nights in "Fine Waterford leaded Crystal glasses"), what sense does it really make ?   All things set up well, jazz, country, and ballad vocalists are often satisfied with a Shure SM-58 at a venue such as the Metropolitan Opera House... Why do you need a $600 dollar microphone in a crowded bar setting ?




(Just reminding you to remind me to ask you this question one of these days,  Yes, the check has been mailed)  




  Nothing, assuming it's a poetry book someone lends to a good friend at a sunday church poetry reading..   We are talking about a crowded bar where in reality, few could care less about the value of YOUR equipment, except you.   Granted, some will hear the difference between a 20 dollar shure Unisphere, and a 140 dollar Shure Beta...But a $600 dollar microphone at a bar ?    Same reason I won't drive my car into Hartford,  People there seem to enjoy expressing their artistic knacks with their keys using new and nice automobiles as the surface to display their carvings in. ...   Yeah,  I could put a sign on the car window that says....

"Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you",  yet somehow,  I doubt that will put an end to the problem, I'm not going to teach these people proper ethical constructs, and proper etiquette, I will however be running to the store to buy a new costly jacket every other week to replace my stolen or damaged jacket that I shouldn't have worn there to begin with. !  

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Since when does the cost of anything have to do with the amount of respect something or someone deserves???????

Somebody's screwed up and it isn't me.

When it's *MY* $600 dollars the slovenly kiddies are swinging around playing Pete Townshend on !   That's one example for starters !   I can afford to lose a 60 dollar microphone,  If we are that concerned about something because of it's cost, we can't afford to lose it, so why deliberately leave yourself vulnerable to that type loss ?  

JMO

What should be, would be nice.  Agreed.   But what is, aint so nice !

I'd bring it on old farts blues night however !

Just different feelings regarding this I suppose Bigdog,  After a few Camel sport jackets were used as ash trays, and countless 600 dollar leather jackets decided to leave me for other guys at bars.... I learned I'm not going to change the fact that there's such a thing as over-dressing, or "too much" for a certain venue, unless we are in such a high income bracket that if we don't spend our money, the gov't will take it.  Than I'll drive the Bentley to the crowed bar parking lot.... (maybe), Yet until I make that kind of money, I won't bring my ES-775, or Higher end Guitars to the congested dive where few have an easy time standing up for any duration.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There have been a few things that Bigdog has stated in posts I don't agree with. BUT,...this is one I do.  Respecting other peoples stuff.  You can drink; get a little rowdy, but you don't have to act like afriggin idiot!.  The same folks that beat on a mic or the KJ's equipment are the same ones that p!$$ in the bathroom floor; or put the beer bottle in the urinal; crush their cigs out on the floor.  I can promise you the bar owner doesn't like these folks to come in either.  Like Bigdog I use what I consider upper quality equipment also.  (I use Shure 87A wirless) Why? Because I know that it makes the singers sound better and I know how much better it sounds.  

However I also know that I use this equipment at a risk.  So far I have been very lucky.  But I have also made a point early in my 5 year gig to let everyone know I don't tolerate abuse.  Accidents can happen but my crowd has learned to party; have fun; but don't break "Kelly's" rules.  

Every now and then you get the idiot; I shut the music down; mic gets taken away; you don't sing the rest of the night.  You're welcome to come back the next night and try it again.  You screw up again; your out.  No 3 strikes.  This isn't baseball. Everyone should be old enough and mature enough to be told once.  If your not, we don't want you.   Sad to say but many "kids" don't get the teaching at home that I give in the bar.  Word travels fast; but you have to set the tone hard and early in the beginning.  Respect soon follows.

Kelly

I do agree with both of you Kelly, I really do..  Given my OWN upbringing, I learned that whether drunk or sober, I am equally accountable for my actions, and there is no excuse for poor behaviour.  Yet I still won't bring an extravagant guitar to a jam session at a crowed bar where I realize others aren't quite so conscientous. In principle you two are 100% correct in my opinion.  Problem is, I still don't want to leave something precious to me vulnerable assuming it's superfluous and I can avoid doing-so

JMO.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I guess my problem is I have always expected others to act and behave as I do.  LOL  Boy have I learned a thing or two over the years.  I also agree with you and understand your thoughts.  If I was worried too much about my equipment I would pull out my old Beta's and use those.  But I obviously am ok with "taking the chance."  And I in hindsight won't have anyone to blame if something does happen other than myself.

I use what I use cause I like it and can offord to take the chance.  But I would be just as strict with my equipment if I was using a "cheap system."

Did I also tell you to never come to one of my shows and bad mouth or boo another singer?  LOL  That experience has made for karaoke tales in that city.

Kelly

I'll take your point, but would you take a guitar that didn't sound good?   Would you play with a band that sounded crappy, because everyone had cheap sounding equipment.    Would you compromise yourself?    Why do people play a $500,000 Statovarous violin?    If you have something like that, you have to watch it and take care of it just a little closer.    I quit going to any other karaokes because they all sound like crap.   I spoiled myself with great sounding equipment.   I can't help it.    $150 to get a mike fixed.     Had lots of them fixed over the last 14 years.     That's why I get $175 a night.     I don't get, nor do I want the screaming drunk crowd.   Every once in a while one slips through the cracks.    I get the people that have a little more talent and are a little more serious about karaoke.   They are attracted to quality.    They like it.    I'M WORTH IT.   I don't do [highlight=crimson]anything[/highlight] Halfa**ed.    I buy the best stuff I can afford no matter what it is.    TV, stereo, power tools, lawn mower.    I took out loans to buy my equipment.     I never hear anyone talk about doing that.   All I ever hear is, I have a little bit of money, what miracle can I do?    Miracles take more than a little bit of money.   Save your money or borrow more.      I do professional karaoke, not shoestring karaoke.   Truthfully, I don't even like the sound from the $600 Shure SM58's, I'm buying.     I really like the sound of my Audio Technicas, but they stopped making this model.

If you own a Cadillac, do you want them to put Caviler parts on it?   Why have the Caddy in the first place?      I'm singing on a Cadillac system, I want it to sound like a Caddy.

One more thing.... Even if I was at the crappiest karaoke in the world, I wouldn't be dropping the mikes or other abuses that we are regularly subjected to.  

Absolutely.  If the focal point becomes, "Why the heck are you kids handling my $600 dollar microphone like the UPS football team that delivers my fragile items in powder form",  Why continually subject our equipment to something that likely won't change in our lifetime in some of these venues.  Yet assuming it's well worth the risk, because the sound really is that much nicer, and a $600 microphone at the congested rowdy bar does in fact provide us with twice the sound quality of even the $200 microphone,  I'm wrong.  There is a justifiable reason in such a case.  I was only assuming a $600 dollar microphone in THAT type atmosphere (sloppy crowded bar where you must concern yourself with broken valuable items due to attitude, and conditions, while in the background pool balls are smacking each other, TV's are on, and the DB level is raised with noise from people talking and yelling.  Additionally, the room acoustics aren't even that great).. and concerns regarding patrons  handling/ damaging/stealing your valuable equipment becomes an additional source of stress, and you worry, and eye the microphone out've fear much of the time because "It's $600", I agree with T-Town Tenor... What advantage in such a case IS there of bringing THAT microphone on those particular nights ?  Or why not just hide it until someone really good comes along who you trust ?... Have lesser microphones for the other Barbarians.  

As I see it,  if I bring a $600 microphone to a crowded bar with mainly 21-23 year old yelling kids that want to scream Junk (IMO), as well as get into all the histrionics and dramatics of Jim Morrison, Townshend, and put my equipment at risk, *I'M* creating unnecessary additional stress for myself..  Now if as you mentioned Kelly, the equipment DOES sound significantly better even in the opinion of some in aforementioned setting, I'll concede my point. (My assumption is ONLY based on the fact that to my knowledge, you aren't going to get sound that's 6X better than a Shure SM-58, or even twice as nice a sound quality making such a microphone practical given pro's and con's. I base this on THAT environment, which I assume isn't conducive to pristine balanced sound making such a microphone much better sounding a piece of equipment.. Now if Big Dog said,  "I bring the microphone because it really sounds MUCH better than any $300 dollar microphone I've ever used even in that type ambience"... I'd understand why he'd wish to bring it on THOSE nights (Assuming as you stated, it's worth it sound-wise in THAT setting, there's just no comparable way to achieve as good a sound with a less costly microphone,  the pro's and con's are weighed out, and while it's understood damage might take place, without THAT investment you couldn't have achieved as good a sound quality...

In such a case, I'm way off base.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

ADDED IN:  I'll tell you why they DON'T buy the 500K violins, and where they WILL LIKELY NOT ever be seen with such a valuable, at the type bar you are discussing. Those are collectibles, NOONE can afford to lose them. They (like artwork) from the greats have vintage value, and are purchased as appreciating assets. To expose them to unnecessary risk doesn't happen.  They are bought at auctions and treasured, often end up in museums in time... Just Investments. They don't sound "worth 500K"..   Half the time they stay in their case, come out at home in IDEAL and safe conditions, and are polished and nurtured.... They won't be taken into a setting where they might end up sheilding off falling boom stands launched by lesbian mud-wrestlers at the local pub.


Bigdog,  I think I touched on some of this in the last post I made, we were both typing around the same time  LOL

My point in brief is,  It doesn't have to be ALL or NONE... There's ALOT in the middle that's good sounding.  You aren't performing in a setting that warrants the Strad Violin... If Perlman, or Nigel Kennedy went into a crowded bar with one of their prized violins they'd be scared ^&#*less, Likely have a person there who's job it is just to stare at the distance between the audience and 20K violin, A person who's ready to dive in front of the performer to take a prophylactic filled with water to the head, before the violin get's nailed. Yet all this is avoidable,  THere's the $400 dollar violin which sounds great in the crappy setup of a rowdy poorly layed out bar, or even the yamaha electric violin, The room acoustics need to justify such an investment to make the calculated risk worthwhile IMO.... If the better equipment has reached that diminishing returns point, WHY BOTHER ?  A Shure Beta, or MOST Microphones less than half the cost of $600 will sound as good in a room that doesn't provide higher-end acoustics, has loads of extraneous noise, and is essentially a Karaoke environment...

Now if A concert violinist is performing at a Concert Hall in a classical setting, STILL, often-times the $500,000 dollar violin will stay home in glass, Those seldom go on the road without security...  The 25K violin however will be better suited and appreciated given the concert hall setting...

Rowdy young Bar, and Strad IOW, don't belong in the same setting.... Likely your $600 microphone doesn't even belong in the rowdy young bar... Yet I might be wrong. If-so, that's fine too...


In answer to your question, NO, I'd never use subpar sounding equipment..  There's plenty of great sounding guitars that aren't extremely expensive..  Most of my equipment isn't the most costly, nor is it the cheapest...It's in the middle someplace... I'd never buy something I thought sounded like crap....but I'd never bring my best into a warzone either,,,  Between black and white is grey, or good-enough

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The "Majority" of the karaoke clientel don't think like you do, BD.

I know I've seen some beat to death Shures that cost $400 each (more at the time they were bought), and seeing the way folks respected them just bothered me when I decided to get into the karaoke Hosting game.

Heck, even simple mistakes like dropping a mic can seriously hurt even a Shure.

But your violin comparrison is faulty in that you have ONE person touching the violin... the owner. So to use that analogy, go ahead and buy the microphone that you PERSONALY are going to use. But don't get pisey at the clientel that come into your venues if they treat the $600 microphone like a $10 one! Cause that's what they're used to because other venues have decided that drunks and expensive equipment don't often mix well.

For instance, I use a great Audio Technica 9900 series... but even on THAT $240 set, I'm STILL very careful on handing them out to just anybody.

I DO keep a Rat Shack $50 mic for that purpose... and yes, I've had to go after the singer later to have them compensate it. BRAND new out of the box, and the mother f*ker spiked it on the pool table!!

I really wish we could all live in a perfect world, where yes, we can get excellent quality equipment... and our customers would all behave like civilized beings.

But NOBODY really lives in that fantasy world.

If I own a Cadillac I will not let any Tom Dick and Harry to drive it. And I will NOT let a drunk go near it let along drive it. and I will drive it myself.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

If you own a cadillac, get some curb feelers on Ebay, a chain-sawed sunroof, and dice valve covers so I can borrow it, and drive it into Hartford Sunday nights without having to worry about anyone damaging it...Rather than keying it,  most will probably be out washing and waxing it a 2AM....

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Musicians who have expensive instruments do not and will never hand that instrument to anyone, even a fellow musician.  You as a host are working in a bar where there are drunks, clumsy people, and other people you do not know, so yes you are not thinking by using $600 mics instead of a cheaper mic.  Common sense prevails, not that I condone anyone abusing anyone's equipment but you do have to know your environment.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

I would still have the problem with a $5 mike.    Don't destroy anything... that I have worked very hard to pay for.   If you want to destroy anything make sure you paid for it.    That goes for wives, kids and karaoke singers.    The price doesn't determine how big of a jerk you can be.   If you are out in public, you have an obligation to behave as such.  Drugged or drunk has no bearing on that.   If you can't handle yourself in a respectable manner, then stay at home where you can be attended to.   Don't impose your idiot self on others.

If you take Tom, Dick and Harry for a ride, do you expect them to start tearing apart your car?

There is no gray for me.   Everything is in black or white.    If I can't run 26 miles, I won't run 3 and look like a jerk.

So let me get this straight.   We should buy and use, crappy equipment, because that's what the drunks expect?????    What planet would that be on????

Maybe we should end our shows like the Who concerts.    Let everyone destroy all of the equipment.   Then tomorrow, we could buy newer, crappy equipment.

I was born a poor white kid.  I had to work bent over in the fields picking cotton all day long.    Papa died when I was 3.   Mama had to work 4 jobs to feed us 12 kids.   We lived in a 1 room tar paper shack.     I had to walk 20 miles to school everyday.   Uphill both ways, in 20 inches of snow.    I never had a good pair of shoes.   We had to carry water from the creek.  We washed our clothes in the creek.  We had an out house.   Corn cobs and Sears catalogs for toilet paper.    One really bad winter, we had to eat my dog to keep from starving.   Everyone was eyeing up the tender parts of the baby.  Good thing spring came early.    I quit school in the 6th grade, to sing on street corners for food and pennies people would throw.   Mama died when I was 12.  Me and my sister had to take care of the young ones.    We had to eat road kill, if hunting wasn't good.     We dumpster dived to take food home for the kids.  We all slept in the same bed.   In the winter the snow would blow in through the cracks of the boards.   We would wake up and sweep the snow off of the feather tick blanket.    I stole pop bottles off porches to turn in for the 2 cent deposit.   We had to walk the railroad tracks, looking for lumps of coal, that fell off of the coal cars to heat the house.  

During all of the dark days and nights, I prayed that God would smile down on me someday....   Someday.... I  would find a really good job.    Someday...I would never deny myself the smallest of life's pleasures.   Someday .... If I could afford it, I would have at least one of everything.   Someday.... I would deserve it.

Someday ... $600 microphones would be disposable items.    Someday.... I could use Sound Choice discs once, then toss them away.     Someday.... every song book would be bound in fine Corinthian leather, with gold edged pages.   Someday.... every singer would have customised, designer monogramed song request slips.    Someday.... 24 karat solid gold, diamond studded pens would be in each book, for you to take home, just for coming out to sing.     Someday.... I would have my own security people.   Someday.... roadies would set up and tear down the equipment.    Someday.... Every singer would have  a 19' plasma TV sittng at each table.    Someday.... I would have a computer karaoke system to make Bill Gates spit green.      Someday.... I would ride a limosine to and from the gigs.     Someday .... beautiful groupies would line the walk to the limo, for me to make my selection.      Someday ......I would be the Big Dog looking back at all of the envious porch puppies.  

Yes.... Someday.....I didn't think it would ever get here.....Thank you, God....

Now for the rest of you, sing two songs on your crappy system (preferred by equipment smashing drunks 4-1) and call me in the morning.

Yeah I wouldn't let anyone play my Les Paul, but I also wouldn't buy a $600 mic for karaoke simply knowing accidents do happen.  I rum 3 SM58's, 2 of which i've used & run nightly since '94, these 2 particular mics have lasted through drops, swings (which I stop immediately), 1 was even slam dunked - yeah he was/is 86'd permanently from the bar.  Point is these 2 mics still sound great & the initial investment of $200 for both have far outweighed having to replace them every few months for cheaper mics.  I replace the mic balls on them every few months - if needed, I don't use crap, but there is no way i'd use top of the line either for karaoke.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

bigdog, your tale would make a great country song. and it would sound great sung into that $600 mic.

shades of gray aren't a bad thing...they give our black-and-white lives shadows and highlights and texture.

_________________
[glow=darkorchid]Musica delenit bestiam feram[/glow]

Once when I was 12 my uncle to visit us. He was in a jazz band, played keyboards, flugle horn and bass. He set up the whole shebang in our living room with all the mics and pa equipment so he could stay in practice during his visit.

One morning he was showing all of his equipment and how it all worked together when he performed. I picked up a mic while he was playing his keyboards and proceeded to tap on it. By the third tap I suddenly received a whack in the head. My uncle was not in the habbit of whacking kids but this was a different situation.

He proceeded to tell me how microphones worked and how little abuse they could tolerate. I think this is something most people don't know when they first pick up a mic. The smallest amount of abuse will not even seem like abuse to them because they are not educated on the delicate nature of even the cheepest of mics.

Then there are those who just abuse the heck out of anything that they don't own. They should receive a good smack in the head anyway.