Karaoke Forums

Called a long-time KJ in my area to go do a feature article on him and the venue this morning. He answers the phone and tells me he's no longer at the venue, just got back from picking up his equipment that morning! Seems the bar owner pulled the old fog a mirror cheap KJ trick on him ---found some undercutter to take the gig for less. Now Im nuetral on weather this person was worth the amount he was charging. But he does have a HUGE assortment of songs, top-flight gear and lighting and has been doing karaoke and DJ'ing for MANY years. But either way thats just plain out F-D-up to lose a gig that way and have it pulled out from under your feet. I dont care who you are. Unless there was blatent misbehavior or cause then its just plain wrong. But I guess all's fair in love and entertainment...............Just hope none of you ever experience this.

_________________
"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

If he's that good and the undercutter sucks, the crowd will be spinning down the toilet, along with his profit.      :wave:      He will learn a wallet lesson, but it will be too late.

I use to do a VFW private club.    People had to come an hour early to get a seat.   The place would be packed.   People were becoming members for the karaoke.    Had to hire extra help, the whole bit.     One of the club members was a (kj),  meaning he owned a machine and some discs.   He kept bugging the officers to hire him.     Well the whining worked.   They hired him.    They had elections and a new crew took over.    They put a new guy in charge of entertainment.    He got rid of the good bands, the good DJs and me, everyone that brought in a good crowd.     Nobody looked at the cash registers.    They let him have his way.     The club is on the verge of closing.     Bartenders had to find other jobs.     They have no entertainment now.      It only takes one idiot to kill a good business, in a very short time.     Do anything to hurt a karaoke crowd and fall into debt.     They will quickly find other places to sing.   Most of the time, it's not the bar thay come for, it's the KJ.

If you are good they will follow. I feel bad for your friend, but
the nice thing is if he is a good Kj he will be fine and the bar owner
will pay for his mistake. Your friend will probably be asked to come back in a few weeks.  :oh yeah:

again more examples of dumb bar owners - Geezz

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Yet another post whining about undercutters!  

Why does everyone assume that just because someone's price is lower that their show sucks?  

Maybe I would just lower my price to get a foot in the door, and then once I'm established jack it back up to what I usually get?  I can afford to lose $25 a show for a few weeks knowing full well that I'll get it back and then some once I get settled.

Are you folks that hard up that if you lose one place you can't find another?  Shows come and shows go.  Venues close and other ones open.  Do I like it when someone lowballs my shows?  Nope, not a bit.  However, rather than sitting and complaining I beat feet and find something else to do.  If the guy is good, he'll hold the show.  If he's not, I may get the call to come back, in which case I raise my prices $25-50 a show just for the inconvenience and to make them think twice about pushing me out again!

Competition is what makes America great--get over yourselves!

_________________
Spreading the karaoke gospel

Well I know I couldn't find other jobs for my mobile systems, at least for any decent price.  $100 bucks was the max I could get, and that was the 'get the foot in the door' price - when I tried to get my raise to reg price, they said no, so I quit.  They hired another company for even cheaper, they lost ALL of their singers, gained a couple that they brought, but didn't get any new draw otherwise.  That company lasted for less than a month & they tried calling me back - I told them sure, but the price just went up, needless to say they turned it down & now are closed.  
I have a pretty good reputation (14 years in one club alone) in the area - especially at my long running club which still pays me what I ask.  All the clubs I tried to solicit basically said no way when I asked my price, one even told me he didn't care about 'quality' as long as people sat in the seats - which they do there.  I know for fact the guy only charges $75 per night, has a crappy system & yes his show is not very good - LOTS of dead air between singers - sometimes up to 2 minutes we counted, he doesn't talk at all except to call the singer up, he gets his friends up the minute they walk in the door, last new disc was approx 4 years ago, yet people still seem to frequent the club to capacity, so I can see the club managers point of view.  I believe it's more the club than the karaoke for the draw - their drinks are very potent & cheap plus pool tables, darts & video games.  
Bottom line is in this area, you can't get a decent price anymore for club work - as long as singers don't seem to care & continue filling the seats of the crappy shows, then there won't be any improvements nor pay increases in the field - so it's no wonder that the bars go for the cheaper guy.  However it is the cheaper guy that is ultimately killing the business because if they COULD price competively to the better/quality companies, then they wouldn't need to go cheaper to begin with.  
I once asked a bunch of regs that I hadn't seen for awhile where they'd been, they told me they were going to a little bar down the street simply because they could sing all night because no one is hardly ever there, at our show they normally only get 2-3 songs in on busy nights & 4-5 on slower nights.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Demand is down for more costly "top notch" entertainment in certain locations anway.  Why pay a KJ when out've the twenty customers (tops)  Sunday, Monday, and tuesday nights those that want Karaoke can go into a side room, or corner of the bar and play on the self-service CAVS JB-199 Jukebox while the others play pool, darts, stay home and sing on their own Karaoke machines (Karaoke is no longer a novelty for many).  Others would rather play Poker elsewhere and don't want to hear people whining to some KORN song out've key, they'd rather watch sports on the bar TV without noise,,, At 3 bucks a gallon people aren't going out as much, on the way home from work in many suburban areas they stop at the package-store, pick up a bottle or case of beer, and drink at home where they don't have to worry about getting cornered for a DUI... With no license, they'll be forced to hang out in Internet rooms (God forbid, road-rage finds a different vehicle)

If Bar owners didn't want these less expensive forms of entertainment "undercutters" couldn't survive, right ?  People aren't losing entertainment jobs just to cheaper Karaoke hosts.  They  are losing jobs to NO karaoke, Texas Hold'em, Bar TV sets, pool tables (people are going back to what they did pre-Karaoke fad),  What's NOVEL about Karaoke today ?  You can do it on your computer, right ?  You can do it at home, on a machine with no KJ ? Those REALLY into it do it WITHOUT alcohol anyway.. (So, without starting to sound like a Dr. Seuss rhyme) You can't control it when your competition starts coming out've cracks in the woodwork charging 1/3 of what you were getting paid, anymore than you can control bar owners from wanting to hire these critters. One condition can't exist without the other. There are reasons that this is happening.  The demand is down for better paid KJ's. Demand is down for better paid entertainment. Maybe the demand is just down for Karaoke !  How many that go out on a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or wednesday night need a KJ at all ?  Pool's making a big comeback around here... TV's are once again getting alot of attention at bars by those that want to nurse a beer, eat pretzels, and not have background noise on slower nights.

The demand is down. Time to dive into whatever the next new fad is going to be.  Problem is, there's STILL going to be more competition, there are fewer bars than 15 years ago that can payout entertainment costs.   Less food, more hungry hunters, KJ's are standing around shooting each other.  Now what ?

What do bars want now ? What are they willing to pay for in your area ? Why don't they want *YOU* ?  Obviously in many cases the undercutter is good enough. Should a different type ethic exist in the entertainment industry ?  Yeah, Ideally... and that will happen when hell freezes over.

As the demand decreases for some of you (which is what's happening), more and more of you are going to be without "KJ" jobs at bars.

What now ?

I can fantasize, and throw together a nine piece hornband that plays Funk.  But what good will it do if that's not marketable today ?

Seems as though you have control of one issue only.  

1)   Supplying the bars with something they want, can afford and can't get elsewhere.  If you can't meet that criteria, is blaming your competition even logical ?

Mike made a good point, but a point that's been made for a long time.  It's nothing new.  It's going to get tougher.

I suppose that even if certain patron's go to the bar JUST for you... The bar need's those extra patron's to afford you AND some ?  How many bars will fall apart if they fire you, and hire Joe Cheapo ?  Seriously ?   Does the sun still rise and set around top notch Karaoke in bars today Sunday-Thursday nights ?

If you were a Bar owner, and revenue was down, or even if it wasn't... "2006" would you need to payout $300+ a night as frequently as you did 1996 for the better qualified KJ on weeknights ? Do as many customers look forward to Karaoke as they did 10 years ago in as many bars ?  Or are there other things those that go to bars like to do, that bar owners can provide them with at a more affordable cost to the Bar owner ?   Food for thought.  Realistically, what's going on ?

How long do trends, or fads last for ?    Karaoke has already outlived the"Soul"/ "Disco" mirror ball, DJ era by at least 5 years.  Yet assuming it was 1996 today, in lieu of economy, and the squeeze put on bars now, (the fact that in some areas there just aren't as many bars anymore),  wouldn't conditions be favorable for them wanting the "undercutter" ?   If it were now the mid-1990's,  would as many people be going to bars ?  Could they afford to ?   Things are tougher all around today.  These bars alot of you complain about shaving nickles.  It'd be interesting to see profit and loss statements in 10 year increments   1975-1985-1995-2005.  In the suburbs around here...  It's easier to blame legislature discriminating against bars, and the economy..  It's real easy to see that the business MOST bars pull in IS NOT commensurate to paying entertainment on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights.  Few do that well Friday and Saturday nights these days.

Given a choice MOST bars would love to go back to having live bands at least one night a week.  They can't afford it, and haven't been able to for quite some time. Those of you that are getting 300 are pretty lucky.  Quite honestly,  I'd be trying to squeeze out another $100,  charging a cover, and getting a live band that needed some work.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Preach on brother Kaplan!

I know you come from a live band background, and the whole "undercutter" whine is the same thing that we karaoke guys were getting from the average garage band members 10-15 years ago depending on where you are.  

I was constantly hearing from those guys that karaoke @ssholes like me were killing the live music scene because owners would rather hire us for 2-300 bux a nite as opposed to hiring a live band.  

I always explained to them that if their product was good enough people would still buy it.  My point is, why whould a venue pay 700 dollars for a mediocre cover band when they could get karaoke (and music that is arguably just as good) for half that?  Same goes for karaoke.  Unless Big Mike or Lonman or whomever is going to bring in a TON more money than Joe undercutter's karaoke, what's the point?  We have to offer something that the average karaoke guy doesn't.

We all know why karaoke is/was popular.  You are right Steve, as entertainers, we need to keep our ears to the ground and try to find that special something that will keep the people coming out to our shows.  Improvement is not a luxury, it's a necessity!   If we don't evolve within the industry, we're bound to end up sitting on a barstool next to the unemployed musician (is that redundant?) reminiscing about the glory days of karaoke.

_________________
Spreading the karaoke gospel

Mike,  I never looked at it in terms of "blame".  I never "blamed" outside circumstances for my demise.  They either couldn't afford to pay us, or our time was up. Either way, there WAS a reason for what was happening... We just weren't wanted or needed anymore.   What can I say or do ?  They wanted the DJ's.. So did many of their patrons as it turned out..  The reality was the bar was doing what the bar needed to do for IT'S survival... The sun never did rise and shine around "me"... Despite my wishes


My folks always instilled something VERY important in me... Don't quit your day job thinking you'll live off've being a musician.  EIther way, you'll end up hating music. It started as a hobby for me, evolved into a means of making a few bucks on the side, and ended up as a hobby for me.... Because I never allowed myself to lose perspective,  work is transient in the pro entertainment realm..Unless you happen to be The Stones, Zep, The Who, etc....Yet even Fogelberg ended up doing colleges and coffee houses. "Pro" musician for most never equates to 6-digits a year income by any stretch of the imagination....  The odd's are against many from "jumpstreet" that go into entertainment thinking they can survive solely on that area as a means of survival. There are too many outside conditions that have always made such a profession quite vulnerable... You rely on BARS for one... IMHO, never a safe bet.

I suppose I can draw a few analogies... Sometimes we just don't have control over what is.... Sure it sucks losing work...  Yet there is a reason for it.   Just as it might suck losing a girlfriend to a woman... How can I compete ?  I can't... Yeah it's a loss, but why blame ?  It does NO good... We only have control of what we can provide..  Some situations we need to look at reasons, and not just the symptoms.

You brought up a good point however, and that is fantasy vs reality.. It'd be a great world if loyalty did exist in the business world, but some of us suffered in it because it just DOES NOT.   Look at reality.  My dad got his engineering degree MANY moons ago.... Got out've grad school..... CLimbed and climbed, but what ends up happening ?  He get's OLD, reaches his ceiling pay and QUICKLY becomes over-qualified, because things change... At 70 he's not as wanted making 6 digit's a year.  They want the YOUNGER employee they can pay less.  Many get golden handshakes, and early retirements in the business world... Sometimes people DO become overqualified.  Other times passe.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I gotta say I really suprised that karaoke is still free in most places that you go to sing at. As a singer (before my KJ days) I would have been happy to pay $5-10 a night to sing. Come on....for a mere cost of one good quality cocktail you can entertain and be entertained for an entire evening.

Think it will ever come to pass?

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Flipper,  Around here,  a bar could give a person $5 credit to come to their bar (off the cost of drink, etc) yet the reality is SUnday-Wednesday there will be essentially no additional draw, even if they give a free drink.... That $5-10 bucks doesn't even cover one-way to the bar gas-wise. With a "Cover charge" they'll shoot themselves in the foot.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I dunno maybe I'm just dreaming

Would be nice though

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Well, maybe not Flipper.  I can only go by my area.. It's all I know now. Perhaps a VERY different scenerio would exist where you are.  I don't know.   A few bars DO have a $5 cover, yet they also have a band (perhaps once every two weeks) that people travel to listen to.  Still cover charges for bands... (That have a draw). THe bars never make a killing on those nights either.  Which is sad. OFten they lose money.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One thing I have found is that people in a private parties are by far more generous with tips, and don't mind paying extra.

I can't remember the last time that I was paid the exact amount for my services. I'm usually pleasantly suprised at the end of the night when they write the check.  :worship:

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Yep.  That'd be ideal, if more of you can get into the private party areas, In such a case. THESE people want the best... Wedding's aren't something people settle for subpar entertainment in.... (Just subpar mates but I won't go there)...

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Flipper. Maybe this leads to the next point.... "How should the KJ market himself" for the private venues ?  I take it this requires much more aggressive marketing, Newspapers which can run into abit of money, yet what's an effective way for a person to market themselves to get their name out ?  Perhaps that's worth focusing on.  Rather than what isn't... What can work ?

Also,  might it be a time that the "KJ" consider's ALSO becoming a DJ ?  Like "In the beginning" for some ?  Have the ability to do both, and market himself as a DJ rather than a KJ today ?  However a DJ who also does Karoake ? Reason being, more know what a "DJ" is.  Are we back to a time where the KJ will need to have some DJ skill too. and invest in albums with vocal tracks ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Maybe that would best be discussed in another thread. I do have some decent info to share on that subject with those that would have interest.

I made a decision a couple of years ago to begin distancing myself from the bar business. But that is where it all starts....getting visibility from bar gigs then promoting private parties.

Sure solves the undercutting issue! I have never run into price objections there.

_________________
FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I have a good friend that plays in a band.    They do very well drawing a crowd.  Between  2-300 paid to enter, most places.     Thats's pretty good around here.    There are still straight DJ's that just play regular music.      But for the most part, every gig I do makes more for the bar, than Bands or DJs.    Believe me the karaoke scene is saturated with way too many KJs.    Most fall into the crappy to very crappy range.    If Doctors were a dime a dozen, they would have to cut their fees.     Good nurses around here get up to $30/hour or more.   Because there is a shortage.      Karaoke is still the best money making entertainment going, for the bar owners.   It's also the cheapest.     My karaoke people don't want Dj music between the singing.   There are bars around that cater to dancing.    Some to bands and some to karaoke.

No smoking is going to be the norm, very shortly in all public and business environments, so get use to it.   Just as DUI check points.    Gasoline prices are hurting everyone.    Yes people are going out less and opting for more home parties.   People usually walk home from the party or they sleep over.   It's no picinic to get my stuff into someone's house.    I turn down jobs if it's too much work.   There's working for a living and then there's WORKING for a living.   I like the EZ money.    But people can't afford to have parties every week.    And to pay you to be there.    They want to leave the house (cabin fever).

As far as I'm concerned my weekly gigs are my main bread and butter and always will be.    The wedding, private party thing is just icing on the cake.    You may make more money per job, but they aren't steady enough to take the place of my steady gigs.    I haven't done a wedding or PP for way over a year, and I'm not really looking for any.   I'm working steady every Saturday (party nights), anyway.   Even if you work for less money per night, it's still steady income.    It's almost guaranteed income every week.  Slow and steady wins the race.   Parties are too hit and miss.   You can't base anything on them, unless that's all you want to do.   Then you will have to be very good, to get referrals.   Meaning good equipment and also entertaining.
 
It will cost you more money to advertise and to promote.    How many weddings or PP are there on SUNDAY< MONDAY< TUESDAY< WEDNESDAY< THURSDAY????????   That looks like 5 good karaoke nights to me.   Let's see..... 7 steady karaoke nights vs 2 hit and miss party nights.     DAAAAHHHH   What am I missing?        Professor Bigdog has just stepped up to the podium.   Todays  lesson is  "Modern Math"    7 is better than 2  or   7 is > 2.   Both are correct.

HOW flexable can you be????   No matter how you slice it, it's still going to be karaoke.    Music plays, people sing.     People have been singing for thousands of years.    Karaoke is more popular, for longer than anyone thought it would be.    Anybody old enough to remember "Sing Along With Mitch"?   People at home following the bouncing ball, singing along with words on the TV screen, every week.   How original.    Late 50's early 60's.    Very popular TV show.    It was karaoke.    Mitch Miller was the first KJ.   He just didn't know it.

I still say it has to do with professionalism and quality equipment.   PERIOD.    If you can't face the facts, you can reinvent everything you want, but it won't help.    Reinvent your business and equipment.     I'll say this until they pry it from my cold dead lips.     "UPGRADE"    This seems to be the worst word on this site.   It's the most hated word.    WHY?   Because mostly everyone has already settled for crap, wrongly thinking that they have already spent too much.   It's good enough for "KARAOKE."

The cream always rises to the top and stays there.   Even if you shake the bottle a hundred times, it will still go back up to the top.   Right now "KARAOKE" is being shaken....... who will survive?

Which is the biggest reason why most don't upgrade, their crap is filling the seats (at least around here) & has become the norm at many places.  Why would one care otherwise about quality if their crap is doing the job.  
I agree with you about upgrading - this way they cheaper companies could start charging more as well & raising the pay field all across the board, but I guarantee most don't care - including singers, kj's & bar owners.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!