Karaoke Forums

Ok, got my vent out....  After reading the posts I did vote No as well.

No offense folks but KJ/DJing is not rocket science and there really isn't a compelling reason to impose "more" regulation.  As business people, you already have enuf of the gov sticking their nose in your livelihood.  Doctors, lawyers, plumbers, electricians and other trades do need to have some oversight as there is a public trust to be served-- e.g. safety.  

In a competitive market, you will always have a spectrum of people willing provide a product or service.  The low quality, crappy people will die out.  The folks who provide a good service for a good rate will get business.  People who can command a premium will get if they're good enuf and can convince somebody to do it.

Don't compromise your standards.

I just had to add my 2 cents to the pot:
I've always felt that this site was a place to discuss everything karaoke - whether it is advise on equipment, technic (sp) whatever.  I have found the people here, in general, friendly and helpful.
As for helping want-a-bees, well, we all started out somewhere, and as I've seen in my area, it doesn't take long for the bars to be willing to pay a quality KJ, if they've ever encountered a bad one.  And really, do you want to work somewhere when they're not willing to pay you? And as was stated earlier, nothing compares to experience.  This really is a learn-as-you go business, because there are so many variables in any situation.  Just tell the want-to-bees about good equipment, the value in not undercutting, and let them live and learn.....

_________________

I still don't see what's wrong with being a wannabe  :(   Without that initial drive, I'd never have had the perserverance to excel in (hold on,  I need to make a phone call, I forgot how to spell the word)

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Pseudo-erudition and bloviated ersatz

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I vote no.  Legalizing standards will not increase my pay.  They will not make my job easier.  I already make more per gig than 99% of the kj's in my area.  Why? Simply I do a great job and use good equipment.  I started out as a wannabe.  True I took my time and learned (IMO) what makes a great host and I had the money up front to buy great equipment.  I know that's not the norm.  The wannabes right now are what allow me to charge higher rates.  My ability to make an owner understand you get what you pay for is what keeps the wannabes from taking my gigs.  I know there are many owners who could care less.  I don't want to work for those type of owners and I won't.

But I am also not going to (@$%&#!) and moan because some wannabe trys offering to do my show for less money.  It kills me to read all the time about kj's who cry and moan about wannabes and sometimes wrongfully called "bottom feeders"; I find "most" kj's who want guidelines and standards are those who already have well established businesses and they now want this as a protection from new talent and competion. Last I rememeber, Wal-Mart, Lowes, Home Depot all do their best to undercut one another.  That's called free trade.  Business is like life.  Some will win and some will lose.  In fact for someone to succeed financially it is almost impossible unless someone loses.

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, but don't go making rules for my sake.  I prefer to go by my own. And in turn let you operate by yours. If they aren't good ones the customer will let us know.

Kelly

That makes loads of sense to me Kelly.  IMO the best shot we have at "controlling" anything, is for us individually to live what we preach, and in real lead by example. Hope good deads, and kindness get reciprocated. and live the serenity prayer. Doing what WE can do for us, trying not to step on other's toes.. Accepting that we have limited control of others actions, and of course realizing that while none of us feel like showering our competition with gifts, similarly our competition can live without our presence quite comfortably as well. We don't own the field of work we decide to make money in.  We have LITTLE control of what others do. It'd be a sweet world if I could push a button and make all that makes my life more difficult disappear, and then another button next to it that would turn all males that are more attractive than me gay, so all the attractive females would then line up at my door... Or would they ?  Would it be a better world if we could push a button that wiped out all our obstacles in life ? Would we then be able to feel accomplished, as tho we've earned anything. Appreciate what's ours to the same degree ? Know where we stand. Have feelings of self worth ?  Life isn't easier, nor is Happiness abundant as the result of everything we want just dropping into our laps.

This sounds like a very simple case of "I want things to go my way, if it doesn't benefit me I want to make it illegal". It's unrealistic however, totally egocentric, and quite a fantasy...

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

First of all, I am not against competition.    I know there will always be someone knocking on the door.    I hate incompetence.   Who's sitting on my chest?  

Second, I didn't so much mean legalizing regulations like the government is setting up.   It was more like regulating some of the information that is doled out, IMO somewhat hap-hazardly to newbies.

As stated, the bar business is taking a hit from the economy.    As bars are forced to pay less for entertainment, we will be forced to bow down to the lesser pay, if we want to work.    

I still say newbies are getting the short end of the stick, as far as quality startup information.   As it pertains to everything involved with operating a successful karaoke business.  

This is how I started a newbie.    

This was to protect me, in case they decided to rape my knowledge and buy their own system to become my competition.   They have also promised not to hawk any of my gigs.     They are still my competition with one difference, I am helping them, with jobs and other business related questions, etc.   The rest of the money was paid in stages.   As they learned.    They came with me for 6 months, as often as they wanted.   We are almost at one year and I'm still helping them.    I made them load and unload the van.   They set up all of the equipment.    Night after night.    They learned how to mix and screw up once in a while.    They now have 3 nights a week.    I edited and printed their song books.   I designed song book covers, business cards, flyers, slips and ads for them.    Now they are learning to do these things on their own.    When I started I had no help from anyone.    I just went around to a lot of other karaoke gigs and observed what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do.   I did everything but collect their money for them.    They basically did an on-the-job apprenticeship in karaoke.    I have learned a few things from them as well.

As far as them being my competition, this is the kind of competition I like.   Competing on an even playing field.    Identical systems, head to head.   One more thing good about this.    They are asking the same money as me.   This will help to make our price look like the norm.   We will both benefit from asking more money.    Every time someone tells them about their great sounding system, they tell me about it, with a lot of pride.   They are very happy they did it this way and not on their own.   And they know they are a lot further along than they would have been, by themselves.

How many newbies would want this kind of a start?   Do you think my newbies are more likely to fail or succeed?

We [highlight=crimson]are[/highlight] doing the newbies a disservice.   The information handed out to them needs regulated to guarantee them success.     The more they fail,  the more it hurts all of us, by way of lower wages.  I think this alone will be a big factor in desiding the future of karaoke, as it concerns us.     Nobody wants to admit they might have wasted a lot of money in a failing business.     When that newbie is ready to belly flop, the first thing they do in desperation, is cut the price to stay afloat.   The bar owners think this is the going rate and apply it to all others.    We look like we're screwing them, with our price.   One big downward spiral.   The karaoke black hole is sucking, as we speak.     I just want to ensure more newbie success.   It will benefit our cause.

I WANT COMPETITION.   BUT, I WANT QUALITY COMPETITION that will keep our wages up, not substandard competition, that will drag us down.   If you can't see what we are doing to ourselves, we're doomed.  

Think about hot dogs, baseball and moms apple pie.    MMMMMmmmmm  Warm apple pie.  

Vote yes, on proposition "regulation."   It's your future.  

One more thing.   If we make Mexico the 51st state..... they will already be here.  

I don't disagree with you.  You are talking standards across the board. People taking some pride in what they do. Alot of the general mentality today scares me as well.

What does looking at today's mainstream voting public tell you though ?    :(

What will it take to reverse this ?  What's happened to many peoples standards over the years ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I wasn't too clear in the initial question post.    Everyone thinks I want to write Federal laws regulating karaoke....    Hey that's an idea....

Problem is you can legislate making Mexico a 51st state, but it'll still end up

Teikyo Mehico- A division of Matsushita
           (Assembled in USA)



The days of solid American cars,  great construction, electronics items built to last are LONG gone...


"If you create it, and they don't want to pay for the quality. Can you compete"

Is this actually your competition (the group you think is subpar) ?  Would Bar's pay $250 per night if suddenly the $100 per night undercutters fell off the face of the earth today, or are those asking $250 per night being forced into retirement because they are over-qualified today ?    Are you concerned about the quality of competition ?  That's just a symptom. Isn't focusing on the undercutters putting the cart before the horse ?  Perhaps even viewing them as scapegoats in a MUCH bigger problem ?  The demand for good KJ's is down in many locations. Tough times, fewer luxuries. Assuming times weren't tough though,  trends change in terms of what people consider "Stylish" luxury items, and what payout is for luxury items (in this case bars paying for entertainment) changes as well.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If the undercutters drive us all out of business.   They will be able to increase their prices.......to what we use to charge.     Maybe I should start charging less too.   Help them get it done sooner.   I could use a raise.

They are my competition in the fact that what they charge hurts my ability to charge what I want to get, for my worth.    They are not competition as far as head to head.

I take jobs from them, not the other way around.     We have been called in to replace a lot of jerks over the years.

A bar right down the street that we used to do, that didn't want to pay my rate, has a cheap jerk in there right now, chasing away all of the paying customers.    Doesn't seem to bother the owner.    He still doesn't want to pay my rate.    $25 difference between top quality and a jerk.   Guess who I don't want to work for?    They pick jerk time after time.    Screwing himself out of thousands of dollars a year to save $25 a week.

Another guy I use to do, ($6 glass of wine guy, real fancy place) didn't want to pay me full rate.  He always paid money, plus 2 free meal tickets. (dinners are $15-25 or more, each)     I sent the meal tickets to the electric company, with my bill.    They sent them back with a shut off notice.    I can't pay my bills with meal tickets.   He desperately wants me back.    We may talk, this week.    He'll eat out of the palm of my money grubbing paw.   Any bets on this?     This could be Bigdog's second coming.....

What will be the selling price of SM58 if it is still made in the US and not Mexico? 2x?

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Again, I vote no.  Who decides "what" information is given to "wannabes?" You?  Me?  It obvious that not all KJ's agree.  And again, the bar owners are the ones that need educating.  They are the ones who pay the money.  As I stated, I won't work for the owners who can't tell the difference between good karaoke and bad.  Or who only look at what costs less.  I don't mean to sound cold but I could care less if "the competition" know's what their doing or how much they charge.  I don't mind sharing ideas on forums such as these, but I'm not going to start a "school" for the "wannabes" in my area.  The more "good" KJs there are in my area, would mean the less work for me.  

Now true, the fact that I already have a full time job means I can't take every gig that comes down the line.  But at the same time, I like being considered the better KJ around.  Helping the competition sorta defeats that.  Lowes came here about 2 years ago.  It only took them about 6 months to run 84 Lumber out of town.  They weren't ugly with them.  They just offered better prices but also a better product.  

I read DJ and karaoke forums all the time where some preach the need for "regulation."  And the bottom line each time comes across as to improve the quality of the business.  I'm sorry, but the business side of me says that if I build a better mouse trap; regardless if it costs a little more, the customer will buy it.

I have other bars wanting me to quit where I am at now to come to theirs.  they know what I charge and it's more than most of the other kjs.   I guess my thought is, is that the closer we are alike as kjs, (quality of equipment, selection and etc.)  the less difference there is between us.  And I like the difference.  Nature teaches us that in order to survive, somebody has to lose.  Business is the same way.  We can't ALL be successful.  If all stocks stayed the same price nothing would sell and every business would fall. I've talked long enough.  I beginning to act like Steve.

Just kidding Steve.  I enjoy your posts and your sense of humor.

Kelly

(I'd give you the name of a good shrink, but since she's an active participant of this forum, and has asked that her identity remain anonymous, it's best that I don't)

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Bigdog,  Isn't presenting it this way just a sugar-coating of the same idea, which invariably accomplishes the same result ?  This is just a backdoor approach for blocking free enterprise. While it appears appealing to those in a certain segment of the market.  Why would most businessmen want the peripheral BS that also accompanies strict reguation ?  It just can't be done "fairly".  How could this be done at all ?  Where would the money come from assuming it was implemented ?  You'd have to set up sting operations to raid bars and check equipment and monitor such activity.

Jian nailed this situation in a more visual scenerio


Bigdog:   "YES,  The American people will pay that if they must"

Many American People:  "Just as many of us didn't want to buy your American Motors 1979 subcompact car in for 25K in 1979 when the economy was even healthier than today, and just as we opted to buy the Toyota Tercel, Camry, and Honda Accord and Civic  as well as Nissan Sentra's for less than 1/2 the price tag of your "American" product...  We WANT the affordable cars AND microphone... WE WANT to pay less for the Shure SM-58, we want the option of buying the Realistic generic X model of the Shure SM-58 for $49.95".

Bigdog:  "Yes,  but I'm coming from a different segment of the market.  I can't sell my product if free enterprise is allowed"

American People (or in this case bar owners):  "Tough (@$%&#!) Bigdog.  Lower your prices, we don't like Monopoly or Oligopoly.  We want options.  We aren't all upper class, we are struggling. Those that want to pay for you have the option if THEY find your product commensurate with the cost to them. MOST of us can't, and don't wish to be forced to pay your prices."

Bigdog:  "But you see,  It's THAT line of thought which is a microcosm of what's wrong with our country today"

American People:  "We've evolved (or in your eyes devolved), we have different priorities today, btw... What is Mom's apple pie ?  We've never heard if it can you order it on the internet ?"

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The American public will pay higher prices for American products?  Surely you jest.  If that were so Wal-mart and the rest of the big box stores would be out of business.  Americans like any other consumer want a good product at a cheap price.  bar owners are no different that want entertainment as cheap as possible.  NASA sends people into space with the lowest tender.  It's captialism and that is life.  You either play or get out.  Is fair?  Nope, but then again who said life was fair.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Some of us DO miss "Mom's Apple pie", and having tasted it are willing to PAY more for facsimile, I agree,  it has become a rare commodity.  Some of us DO miss old solid American technology (assuming it ever was ALL American technology to begin with, some of it was German, Chinese, Japanese and Russian all along) and those of us that DID grow up with 50's and 60's tube technology (such as myself) DO miss it, and will pay more for it, but it's still voluntarily paying for what WE individually want based on subjective differences/preferences many do, or do not see... Most don't know about "the old days"..  They have no means of comparison, so they don't miss them.

I don't see a solution to what you are saying Big Dog.  But I understand the principle of what you are saying. Our country isn't about to take down the statue of liberty, even though many might agree it'd be the best thing America can do...In reality MOST American's today aint from American blood anyway, Few of us have great grandparents that were ALL native American.. The country has always been a melting pot... There's just no longer a prevalence of the old school patriotic "I only buy American" thought. That got exploited unfortuneately.  It's a catch 22.. People feel that paying top dollar today is no longer necessary, because for many, it's not.  When people catch wind of the school of thought changing from "you get what you pay for", to... "Don't get hoodwinked by American labels, the product isn't actually "American" that's a marketing ploy, it's assembled abroad with many foreign components".... There's no turning back.. Fact is,  we don't ALWAYS get as much as we pay for buying the Alligator Logo on the polo shirt anymore (and of course that was never American anyway).

While I don't want to discount ANYONE that cared enough to invest their capital in top notch equipment and good quality at the onset of their profession. Many don't agree there's a need to.  Who determines who's right or wrong ?  The paying public.  Noone else.

Today for "mom's apple pie", many go to the Polish or Italian bakery. "mom" although she lived in America,  might never actually have been American blooded.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Edit..  Duplicate post.  Board probs.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Dang Bigdog, you sure stirred up some chit!  

I ain't read but the start and Karaoker's reply, but that's nuff for me to see that YOU GOT A FEW OF THEM STIRRED UP ....Karaoker is so mad he might bite the mailman . He might not calm down for a month or more . I bet right now he is digging up his gun/ammo stash and dusting off his cammo undies to go hunting for them regulators and lawyers that are ruining this country....you can believe I'll be watching to see if any old geezer looks like he might "climb over the bar/counter and attempt to half-kill" someone....That's the trouble with them old geezers with too much tude, they can only half-kill, they ain't got nuff stuff left to full-kill so they get all riled up at the least thang and pitch a fit.....I usually keep a straight face till one of them old farts get's all wadded up and screaming and spits his dentures out...