Karaoke Forums

This is the problem I have, with the wannabe issue.   I'm making a stand.....Watch the fire fly now....

Wannabes come on to this site to get info about being a KJ.    Not a problem.

They tell you about the barely passable livingroom stereo system, they want to upgrade with $300, so they can make "big" bucks doing karaoke.   Is it that easy?

Someone, (not necessarily the most qualified) helpfully gives them some suggestions.   Kudos.

No one ever tells them about good business practices.    For shame.

Many of these wannabes end up being the undercutters.... that so many on here complain about... and have lost business to.       Because the limited information they were given..... has set them up to fail.    They have only been told how to make a barely passable home karaoke system.    There is much more to being in the karaoke business than having a machine and some discs.    Working in a bar venue requires more than an upgraded home stereo system.    So now they have to work for less money..... to make up for their lack of initial investment, in the first place.     It's not totally their fault.   They were only given enough information to be dangerous to themselves, to our entire industry and those who work very hard at promoting quality entertainment.    It's a dis-service to them.

I don't think it's right.    I'm not saying it needs to be regulalted....but it needs to be regulated.

They haven't been told about the investment requirements or good business principals like; Ethics, Loyalty, Honesty and about 5,000 other things that are basic needs to run a successful business.    How to sell yourself, building and maintaining a reputable business, etc.   So they end up not being able to survive the "real world" business atmosphere.  

Many on here are guilty, for creating this problem.    Although, it may be unintentional.     [highlight=crimson]WE.... are creating the monsters, (No offence ment to past or present info gatherers) we despise.[/highlight]    My apologies to all that were not given enough information to properly succeed.    

Someone qualified, needs to stand up and tell them, what it really takes as far as time and money.   There needs to be some equipment and business standards, code of ethics and other  guidelines drawn up and issued.    It will be for the benefit of everyone in our industry.     I don't care who gets into business as long as they do it with the intension of promoting good quality karaoke and not some karaoke business killing fly-by-nighter.    Do this, this and this and then we'll talk about this and this.    Make it a step by step process.   Handing out hap-hazard information, willy nilly, isn't helping anyone.   Everyone will be better off, if we help them to be successful.     Somehow we have to uncreate the wannabes, we created.      MY 2 cents.

Some professions are regulated in terms of WHO can practice, or perform.  A person can inquire/ study about how to become a Dr, or Atty until they are blue in the face, however in order to get that respected title, and go into practice, they have to pass boards, or the bar exam to get the title.  In the entertainment industry, what you propose sounds like something that can't and won't happen in such an industry, reason being "good" entertainer, is just an entertainer someone likes..Might be you in your area, or the person you think is a hack in a different bar.. Noone goes to prison, or get's killed by malpractice as the result of a crappy entertainer. His being hired was consentual, If he sucks, he get's fired, if he improves, he stays, and goes on, this system takes care of itself. How are we creating a failure, if the failure get's work ? How are those in here creating anyone ? If someone intends on undercutting in the real world, should we assume all asking questions in here are on probation, and suspects for wrecking the business?  Is it right to go thru life hypervigiliante and that defensive assuming most are prospective killers of a profession they express an interest in ?  We are strangers. That aside, How much in life do we really want to regulate anyway ?  What would that mean, a license, and another organization making money off've us ?  For what really ?  You think they'd play by your books as to what "pofessional means" ?  Regulate something enforce it, and you bring on even more headaches and chaos... The wrong people still slip by ! Many like the concept of a free enterprise, they don't want yet another overseeing beaurocratic organization sticking their nose into YET something else !  Believe me,  I'd have loved to outlaw alot of "bands" in my day, and music types "I" deemed to be crap, but here's the thing... "Good",  "Qualified", what a person can hire without bothering with tumult of excessive regulating, should IMHO be up to the business owner.  If the bar owners are happy hiring crappy DJ's or KJ's, it's their perrogative, if a lounge wants to set up an inhouse system, and let their employee's do the work, that too IMHO should be their individual choice in a free market. Who is qualified to determine whether a KJ should be allowed to perform at some small private business ? If he really sucks, he get's fired.. otherwise the person that hired him is safisfied.. Implement such a overseeing force, and you not only pay for another license,  but you have people snooping around busting others when "other's" might actually decent KJ's, but for whatever reason (such as stolen, or broken equipment) they must make due temporarily with something you or I deem to be subpar, or someone else doesn't say "passes" their subjective rating ?   Entertainment quality is just that, it's entirely subjective, and as I've said,  who wants excessive controls ?  There are always cracks to be found in a regulated system too, and to be quite honest,  that wouldn't stop crappy DJ's or KJ's.... Those that are hacks, and dishonest will still get what it takes despite some superficial plan to stop them, It'd be too easy to bluff, even borrow equipment, and give it "their all" for perhaps two shows, and then slack, Etc.  How could this possibly and fairly be enforced ?  After Barney the hack KJ passes his test, the "Yorxx lime-green smiley face tape recorder and plastic microphone" come out, and the borrowed loaner equipment needed to "feign pro status and pass" goes back to Daddy...

Although from a hypothetical glance, what you bring up is interesting, Personally, I don't think many would want others sticking their beaurocratic noses in the entertainment business, performing artists and entertainers defect from the communist block to come to our country where the best can make money, without being controlled and regulated, Ballet dancers and athletes defect for that very reason, freedom..  

If I can provide something someone wants, let them hire me... Why crimp something else stringently driving those that are good, or in time will become good away from the market ?   Doubt GOOD KJ's would want this either, What next, regulate income ? Have to join an agency ?  Just my feelings as an entertainer in the same setting as you folks for MANY years...I'm not a KJ,  but I wouldn't be happy if some "big bros" gov't or entertainment group told me that if I wanted to play at "J Doe's" bar, I'd need special equipment lest I'd not be "good enough", that's a fallacy in many cases.. It's the person that makes the show, the craftsman, not just the tools.... and unless I had these, and was licensed, what's worse is that I couldn't inquire or be hired at a lounge, OR freely exchange info with piers on the internet ?  That's tyrannical mindset.  There are youngsters that charge less, that want to play in different venues, fewer hours, different styles that provide things I don't.... God love 'em if the bar owners favor them to an old fart like me, with less zeal, and trainable potential, maybe the sucky KJ is better with his crowd than I am.. Maybe they like Nirvana, and KORN loving KJ's..Who knows...They might want "Their own" and not a snob like me....  To each his own,  Live and let live.... Let them hire who they please, and if they can undercut me, and I can't find more work, my time is up....

It's life......  We die,  someone else is born.... They in time find their own path, or sink.... It either is, or isn't meant to be... WHY CONTROL OTHERS ??? Like you alluded to earlier,  we can only control what WE provide ?  Others exist in ALL job markets (competition).... We can't kill them.... Although I've been tempted  

Think about it ?   It sounds quite dictatorial IMHO, doncha think ?

Believe me,  When we were young a person had to pass element's 2,3 and 9 of the FCC exam just to get a microphone for a CB rig..... You didn't have that paper, you couldn't even talk at 1 watt or more very locally.  Today, without a license, look at all the garbage that yacks on the internet all over the world ? Yet is this so bad ?  Not really. People like me can yack without having to pay for another license every two years  LOL

How much do we want enforced in our "land of free exchange", and freedom to hire who we wish ?  How much more beaurocratic intervention do we need sticking their noses into what we love to do ?

Now as for voting,  I'll let the KJ's vote..  I just had to shoot off my mouth  LMAO .  Interesting concept,  but I've never been one to favor excessive intervention, and even more gov't regulation in my life.

JMO

A little more food for thought.  WHile slightly different in concept, when I toured, I often scratched a Good name off've a guitar headstock,  even put a lesser name after-market neck on the guitar, so while it hampered resale, it enabled me to keep it longer... Put the name "Memphis" on an LP Black Beauty, it might last longer.. .... My motive ?  Less likely to get stolen, Despite the name, it was the same guitar, sounded REALLY nice, and advertising what I had would be foolish in some locations...  SOmetimes highend equipment isn't necessary, it's superfluous in fact sometimes...We aren't all made of money, nor should we have to be to get jobs in the entertainment industry IMHO....  I use the equipment that get's the job done, if it's not wise to bring highend to a dive, why should an organization tell me I can't play that gig ? Is it really THEIR business ?  Are they experts, or agencies who've been given the position of only allowing the "elite" to work ? especially in lieu of the fact that it's a real (@$%&#!) to insure your top of the line stuff on the road, or in a bar.... Some great sounding artists use what appears to be "crapola".... ALOT of time it isn't actually crapola,  they just are disguising what they have...in hope of keeping it.... What's in a name ???  One never knows...

To be perfectly honest... EVERYTHING I ever started, in hopes of someday "becoming", at the onset what was my status ?   Wannabe status !

I was a wannabe guitarist at 9.... At 13 I started studying the guitar....

We all start out wannabes...  Some progress, others never do. If a businessman wants to give my nephew a break, and he sucks because he only owns a BSR McDonald turntable, and two "Kustom cabs with 10" speakers"..... good for my nephew... Maybe in three years the kid will be HIS local "Karaoke God"  :D

Or:

I'm lucky, my life afforded me the luxury of pouring money into what I love, music and musical equipment.  Yet some of the most talented blues and jazz musicians I've known are quite poor.. They have other stuff to deal with, and can hardly afford to hang onto a mediocre guitar... Yet they are MUCH more worthy than I am, of playing most gigs...  It's the artist, and the knack and experience,  you can't and should never guage who can get the job done by the label on their speaker cabs... Those Harmony Cabs might be loaded with Altec speakers....and the person behind the cabs might be some amazingly talented pro who just got out've rehab and hasn't a dime to his name....



Is it their fault they were hired ?  Are you angry at the KJ, or the bar who hired the person you believe to be a "hacK". after-all, it was THE BARS choice to hire who they wished to.. If they can't hear a difference, it's their business, let them save money....  Should the American people be angry at the president for getting the "gig" ?  or the voting public assuming some nutcase wins ?   Whos fault is it ?   Even assuming he doesn't win, he's not voted in..  ANYONE in any vocation can and will cheat to get the gig.... you can't regulate certain things fairly.

I don't believe what you are stating is a favorable thing for anyone in the business longer term, nor do I understand how this can actually be enforced by "qualified" individuals in such an industry.  Here's what scares me.  I'm not critical of your post Bigdog.  It's an interesting question.... The first thing that comes to my mind however, is that this takes on a bit of a "fascist" appearance IMHO assuming it's "Only the strong and best shall survive", WHO is qualified to make such a determination ?.... "Only those WE deem best shall survive", OR  "ONLY those we deem credible and wealthy, talented to OUR specs shall be allowed to exchange knowledge on the hobby in the internet".... THAT'S SCARY IMHO... That's tyranny.

To much like that guy with the moustache over in europe

Just a different perspective.  Not one meant to be critical..

Thing with Hack jobs, and those hiring wannabes.. and I know many will disagree with the following statement, however what's more fair then.. (from the business perspective)

"If *I* like you, *I* hire you.  No legs get broken, it's fair American barter, noone get's fired either, I didn't fire ____ because I didn't like him, I know he's good, but I no longer have the luxury anymore of paying out $200 a night. I either pay 60 bucks for your part time High school entertainment, or assuming you don't want the gig, if noone else does for that little cash, I WON'T pay more anyway, it's not worth it to me anymore, revenue aint good, I can't and won't payout 200 bucks anymore.. I'll rent a jukebox instead.. nothing messy.. I save money, and *YOU* make money".  I DON'T NEED A SO-CALLED PROFESSIONAL for my purposes !!

(I think that's the bottomline, who's fault is it if a hack is sufficient to a businessman?). Some of you are over-qualified for what's needed, and what many want or often CAN payout now... Just the way it is I suppose... Who's really to blame here ?  If people are happy with crap... Is it up to me or you to tell them they can't hire crap ?
"Killing the business" according to ??   YOU, sure.... but a dive-bar and the owner ?
Nope !!  Obviously not..  It's all subjective..

I liked those hiring we hacks in Jr High..  I mowed lawns, and shoveled snow... Made spending money being a wannabe  :)  Plow businesses might've hurt a tiny bit, but I made pot money, and the neighbors got their asphalt chewed up...

A good time was had by all !

It's the American way !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The attitude of this thread is the exact reason why I have no respect for this forum at all. I detest liberals who live in a fantasy realm, have no idea what life is about, or a certain life style, but when they enter a new field or move to another state they want to apply their standards or pass new laws or regulations and want to tell everybody how to live and what to think.

The wannabes or newbies don’t return to this forum as it is because most here want to apply their regulations, limited knowledge, and what works in their little venue to all Kj’s or aspiring Kj’s in the world. Not only that now you are wanting to apply the bs to people trying to setup a halfway decent system in their basement. The reason they are setting up more and more in their basements is because your regulations and bs has all but closed down the bars. You call them wannabes but if you have followed this forum over the last year the newbies are more and more asking about personal systems and not pro systems to go into public and make money.

My professional system now sits idle but I make good money advising and setting up basement systems . Simply because as a professional in the electronics industry for any years and while most are sitting in the mud crying and bitching and suing and want to regulate and change the rules I have adapted and evolved to the next  profitable enterprise. I am sitting here posting this with a Compaq Presario 5105us laptop which was payment for setting up a home system…( for those interested the speakers turned out to be a pair of Jbl Eon10 g2’S)

Let me tell you what son… In the last 10 or 15 years I have made more money on the side either doing gigs or as an engineer over 40 years designing and installing sound systems. I consider you a novice and somebody with new ego problems..

I have climbed over counters or bars and half killed people for calling me a liar thief or being illegal.. Do not try to try to force your standards, philosophies, or liberal bullshit on my family, friends, or anybody that works for me. I will show you what a Muscerlero Apache done in Viet Nam…

It took me years to go back to loving attitude but the attitudes on this forum brings back the mean in me…When the regulators on this forum jumped all over a granny in a small outpost in New Zealand for downloading 4 karaoke songs and told her she was breaking the law and was going to ruin the karaoke industry I still remember who you are and if I ever run into you I will kick your (@$%&#!) too..

I suppose this is how I look at something I love..  I love music..  I'm here with you folks as a wannabe singer.  I can't sing.. I know I can't sing... Yet if for some reason hell froze over, and Kappy beat Garth Brooks on the country charts.. Assuming the world was tone-deaf and delerious at that point, shouldn't I have my day rolling in my mud-puddle happy is a pig in #&*^ ?   Why shouldn't dreams come true ?  I suppose like Karyoker,  I try to place logic and fairness over my pride, and ego here..."I can do his job better than him and save you money", is a motto that will live long after we die. It's been around forever, it aint going nowhere.. If your boss is impressed by that, and fires you... Is it your competitions fault ?  This is too much of a real facet of life, and as much as I hate it, it's bigger than me or you.. It's how people sell themselves right or wrong.

If everyone I knew took up guitar MANY more would kick my butt... I might never get a gig.... But I'd still love learning from those better than me, and have to suffice getting jobs from businessmen that gave we wannabe's a break...Maybe I'd network with a few better than myself, and because SO MANY good and bad enjoyed guitar and related music, MANY more would want to listen to it, and there'd be more work...Assuming I couldn't work, I'd likely as a result end up a better guitarist. So I lose, but in a way I win because I have more exposure thru better competition, or those that beat me out, are still my friends.. Realizing at best in life I'm just somewhere around average (hopefully high average) on the pro-scale, I'm NOT the best, I can't be the best.. So I do the best I can and as with most of life, I will repeatedly be humbled.. I get a job realizing what's real. I'm NOT the best, or God's gift to anyone.. My time came, and similarly I'm never impervious to getting knocked on my a$$.. Cause life is good when we rise, and it sucks when we bruise our bottocks after falling hard.. This is what I remind myself.. Never get too cocky.. I'll just all further and make a louder noise when I land hence more will look and laugh at my bruised butt. Is it realistic to get and keep jobs by finding ways to curtail and control competition ? Assuming we could, would that help "maintain quality" ?  Give some people TOO much job security, and they end up getting really sloppy.  It's the competition that keeps SOME straight. I wish the union didn't protect my local UPS football squad that thinks punting my boxes into my kitchen is a feasible means of delivery to the extent it does, these guys can get really complacent.

I look at it this way I suppose..  If times are changing, it's time to put brains and talent into something creative, and originate a new concept for you in your area..Something that the hacks can't do (at least yet). There are now more KJ's perhaps, but there are now fewer local bars that can payout as much as was affordable for them 15  years back when Karaoke was new and novel.   Not all that aren't good performers are unethical, and poor.  Some of the wealthiest, and most crooked louses are "By the books" in the eyes of most. Not by me however.  It's MY throat they slashed to get where they are now. Few others care of course.  That's life  These folks might have ALOT of decent work... They'd pass most tests any agency would use to gage their skill.. Yet they suck as people, have no ethics IN MY PERSPECTIVE, and often they've slashed others throats and have climbed to the top, and there's no way you or anyone will ever put a stop to competitive backstabbing, undercutting, immoral behaviour and corruption keeping everthing honest and clean in a business setting, especially the performing industry. Wouldn't it be nice if kid's didn't learn two diametrically opposed concepts...
1) Love thy neighbor, and do unto others, and pray to God love ensues..
2) Business is business.. Sorry Dad, you're fired. I hold 51% stock shares.
The business world sucks !  People are ugliest when it comes to money matters, and their ego's.... Dog-eat-dog and there's no panacea.

You believe strangers are going to love one-another in the business setting ever across the board, keeping it clean, and scratching one-anothers backs ?

To wish for Utopia is understandable, yet keep it as a wish.  I wish this were wrong. Yet if wishes were horses.... yadda yadda yadda...

Here's my response



Who's standards ?  How could these be enforced ?  At what cost to whom ? Is such an over-seeing system ever honest and evenhanded ?  

Quite honestly,  I think the fairest system is a free system without 3rd party intervention. If you want to hire me,  you are free to do-so.  If you want my shlocky cousin Darrell, you hire him, fire me and I get miff'd..  Not perfect for me but Darrell will be happy and vote you in for another term in congress.

Anyway,  interesting discussion, the ones I have by myself for some reason usually are ! I got me thinking, blew a gasket and now it's time to get some sleep.  Birds are chirping here and the sun will be up soon,  another day comes to an end.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

About the poll.   Everyone should care.

Talking about your guitar.   You bought a guitar with some really big dreams, didn't yea?    Having a guitar didn't guarantee you would make any money or be a huge success.     It didn't guarantee anything.... except that you bought a guitar.   You still had to learn to play it and play it damn good.... to even think about making any money.    Having any kind of a karaoke system doesn't guarantee anything either.  Unless you're a genius, you had to be taught everything about that guitar, from putting on strings to tuning it.    Not counting picking and fingering.   It took a whole lot more than we give the newbies.    I know I play, too.   You proved my whole point to this thread.    

You said you were or are a musician.   Ever hear about the musicians union.    I take it that you didn't belong.    It was implimented to somewhat regulate the pay scale for certain venues.    And to keep musicains from being screwed by night clubs, theaters and bars.  It would have protected you from the crappy bands, that you so despised.     Just like the Teamsters, etc.      Around here we also have talent agencies that for a fee, procure work for bands, DJs & KJs, clowns, magicians, etc.    The jobs usually pay the same or more than we charge.   They seem to be able to get more money for the same gigs.   It's a reputation and trust thing.    The client signs a contract so the money is guaranteed.   The client deals with the agency, you just show up and the agency pays you.     You have to meet their standards to get hired by them.    If you're a secretary, a Temp Agency will test you before sending you to a job, to make sure you can do it the way the client wants it.

This could help the Left Coast $75 a night market place to be on a more even pay scale with the Right Coast.     Is that wrong?    

There are plumber's unions, electricians locals, Teamsters all around the country.
Wouldn't it be nice to know that you could at least make union scale wages for any and every gig you do?

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.    Teach him to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

I am basically referring to the miss leading, miss information some of the newbies get.    They assume for a few hundred dollars, they can be in business.    They can but are they really?    We're giving them a fish.

If someone asked you, "What do I need to race at Indy?" and you just told them all you need is a funny looking, fast car, do you think the they would pick the right one, the first time.   If they showed up with a 440 Road Runner with the big spoiler on the back, could they race?    Yes.  Do they stand a chance in H**l of winning?  NO.   They would be sucked up before the first lap was over.    But they had a funny looking fast car, like you told them they needed.  We set the newbies up to make little or no money.     They get sucked up in the first round and then they are forced to keep working for less and less money, trying to make their business a success.   When in reality.... they never stood a chance.    This hurts everyone.   It gives us, as a whole, a black eye.   It also leads the bar owners to pay less and less, because they see others charging less and less.   It's one great big circle that keeps closing tighter and tighter.   If we don't improve the quality of the newbies, we're all going down.

If you want to be a General Practitioner (Doctor) you go to school for X amount of years and learn to use the different tools of the trade, they teach you how to run your practice and other specific things.     If you want to be a Veterinarian, you skip a few years or you party more.        To be a DJ, KJ you need to know certain things, have certain equipment.  

It's our job to make sure they ask the right questions, to understand everything involved and to help them to become the best they can be.   If that's what they want.    Not to set them up to fail.     These are the things I would want and expect from a site like this.   Take me from point A to point B.     It doesn't have to be a concetration camp.   But, We can surely do better.  

One more thought.     I would say that the entertainment business is totally flooded with dime a dozen KJs.    The entire country looks like hurricane KJ rolled over it.   It's over staturated with KJs, period.   Supply and demand.    We have enough, we don't need any more.   Karaoke has lasted longer and stronger, than anyone ever dreamed.     Most of the music stores around here, jumped out of the karaoke business 10 years ago.    They were selling out of karaoke machines like the building was on fire.   They didn't want to get stuck with all the stuff, when it crashed.    It hasn't yet.

I have too much invested to quit just yet, but if I wanted to make the same money or more spending my night in a smokey bar, with [highlight=crimson]no[/highlight] investment, I'd be a bartender or waitress, on a karaoke night.

That reminded my of something else.    Ever hear of minimum wage.    Isn't it the same all around the country?     We should at least have a minimum fee (wage).

Karyoker, your point is valid and it backs up this issue also.    You might not play out anymore, but you are actually giving hands on, expertise with your knowledge of the equipment and from the playing out experience.   That's what I'm talking about.    Some on here, shouldn't give advice or at least give complete advice.    If you just told your clients some things to do over the phone, you wouldn't be making a living at it.  I'm only trying to end the cycle of newbie failure.    They buy some barely recommended stuff, don't have a clue about anything, dream big dreams and fall flat on their face.    So they wasted time and money and in the process hurt you, me and everyone else.   That was the regulation I was talking about, not government stuff.   Just trying to set a standard to give out quality information to keep everyone on the same page.    Unethical KJs, still hurt the reputation of all of us.

Many of us ended up making our own arrangements depending on many factors. Pay scale varied,  If it was a friend, and place I liked, I had flexibility.. Very unlikely an "imposed" minimum wage today would be ANYTHING a bar would care about, or an entertainer would agree to adhere to.  For such transient part time gigs and bars that don't want to lock into commitments today because many are struggling, things would often be under the table... Maybe not for bigger bars, yet not sure bars or KJ's would want to bother with a third party..  Yet I'll let KJ's answer for KJ's. I;m out've my league answering for KJ's.  I haven't a clue, and I'll admit to this... DJ and KJ today are nothing I know about.  Not sure why a KJ today would bother with a union, and a bar would care to deal with someone protected by a union, and not their own subcontractor yet again,  I admit, I'm out of my league here...


No, it's not wrong, it's ideal, but for only a select few today, things are tenuous now, bars and people that scrounge for work and to make ends meet won't benefit by a union, How would that solve the problems you speak of ?  Assuming bars don't need "Quality" want to pay for it, and in general couldn't care less... Why would a part time KJ struggling just wanting local work care to get with a union ?  I suppose I don't understand.... Undercutters will STILL exist, you can't force a dying bar today to adhere to entertainers unions... times have changed. Where I am many places can't pay even $75 a night, they've closed, it's the same coast as you too Bigdog, poorer than the "left coast".. 20 years ago, it mightve worked however. Yet today what you make is the exception, not the norm. Bars AREN"T going to pay that !  As a bar owner, having a choice NOT to hire you if you are backed by a union, it'd be moot for me as the bar hiring. It wouldn't benefit me, I'd run like hell from you if you weren't your own subcontractor..   As the KJ, you'd get protection assuming it was a better time for bar entertainers,..  bars won't bite.. The days of local suburban lounge performers and bars adhering to entertainers unions (around here) are LONG gone... That's what I'm saying.  Assume you are the bar owner.  Would you want to hire entertainers backed by a union if you could pay some hack 50 bucks for 4 hours once a week ? and that's it .  



Assuming this is so,  times have changed.  It was EASIER for me getting into medical school, than just about ANYONE competing to get into vet med schools. Those looking for NE Vet schools had it VERY hard, about the most competitive medicine to get into !  Easier for both Drs, and Dentists..  Vet undergrads had it VERY hard.  Easier to get into Cornell med than any NE Vet school in the 1970's. Sounds crazy to me too,  yet there were fewer vet schools.

I'm agreeing with alot of your content in other posts btw,  Just not THIS Original post.  I don't think what you state here is possible today.  I don't think most would go for it... Yet perhaps I'm wrong.  

While I agree with your premise as far as being skilled pulls in the best money in some cases, things ARE tougher in most locations TODAY.. I was only disagreeing with your original post in this thread, and what you were proposing here  as some solution, NOT the premise you've made elsewhere when stating "real reputation and skill matter" that's what it takes to make it assuming an area offers the higher payscale enabling the better to stand out, and pay IS commensurate with skill,  in many locations, "better" KJ's can't get 300 a night, in my location that's non-existant today, fortuneately where you are, your ability DOES allow you just-pay,  however even if it doesn't, I don't believe eliminating competition is ever the answer. I belonged to the CT, NY, and NJ unions in the 1970's-early 80's, to get certain jobs I had to as I recall. For solo lounge work it had it's pro's and Con's. For band work well, different story, It got me gigs fill-in gigs so for that I was happy, yet many here aren't traveling entertainers, they don't pack up and play different venues each weekend, and need unions and managers to direct them.. Alot here are local, with a day job..Not all, yet some do a local gig or two..Not tour with the Ringling Bros KJ and Bailey Co. TODAY it's not the same world with the same abundance of work for those of us that WERE in the field and active in the 70's and 80's, a whole different demand, we aren't as wanted in many locations if for no other reason than many of us got the "early forced retirement", we graduated into the realm of "over-qualified". I stepped down for you DJ's and KJ's when the old lounge babygrand, tuner fee's, et al got tossed out to make room for a DJ booth, and bigger dance floor and electronics setup...I couldn't compete with you DJ's, You were en vogue, and I was a has been playing lounge music.. I was sent off to pasture at old farts lounges, and you guys setup at the young fun places... Bars wanted you, not me... NO union could protect me from the new trend in MY area, and I wasn't about to travel anymore for lounge gigs..It was time to hang it up for me. Pay was dropping, and I was getting tired, old, and it wasn't anything I could live on at that point. Thanks god I didn't need to. I got out before I hated everyone and other musicians, and DJ's that were undercutting me. Yet today, would it be advantageous for KJ's to join a union, pay union dues ?  for what ?  You guys are reaching your end too I believe. Not ANYONES fault...just harder times. It's as much the fault of our economy, those hiring the hacks, as it is the hacks you point fingers at.. If there was no market for them, they COULDN'T exist,.. Blame the bars for leaving food scraps for these trolls, but today, it's too late to end this type thing... Most local gigs that most DJ's and KJ's want locally aren't with bars affiliated with unions anymore. (at least where I am), there's no turning back when neither party really wants it..  they'd hire outside a union.  The bars have no need to bother with unions... (yet it's been so long since I've had any dealings with unions, I don't recall stuff from years back)..  In this case, what difference would a union make ?  A bar is going to pay what it wants.  Why would a local bar want to bother with someone affiliated with a union ?  They don't need to. what would the advantages be for a bar owner that wants to scimp on paying entertainment and doesn't care about referral and reputation, wouldn't the smaller bars run like hell from union affiliates ?
Karaoke in bars is no longer at it's height, is it ?  Is it as in demand, and novel as it was 10 years back ?  or is it a fad that's awaiting transition, something that was, and isn't AS strong demand-wise, and today with so many impositions on bars ? Bars are folding.  Not talking about big chains, just average smaller bar owners, I'd want nothing to do with an employee and his union rules and demands.. As a constuction worker, sure... TOTALLY different supply and demand concept in that area.
I suppose what I don't understand is how you think imposing MORE restrictions can be a remedy, when so many bar owners LOATHE the thought of even the restrictions they have putting a squeeze on revenue. It's outside restrictions doing bars in, and bar owners not wanting to payout will say screw your union, "I have a kid that I'll deal with directly and treat as his own subcontractor."   Demands down, the supply is up... I know very few bars who care about MY contract as an entertainer, they all circumvent that stuff today. Entertainer is F___ed today, Bars call the shots, and they are hurting. Frills are in the past..

and I agree, To get good is hard work.  "Good enough" however is always transient. No union, or third party can aid in what's happening now... Bar's are having a tough time. Revenue is down. Economy is bad.  Undercutters would exist despite those that would even bother with a union. DJ's who became KJ's, likely need to diversify and find a new niche.  Hacks that get 40 bucks are a symptom, they are just a manifestation of problemed times IMO, they aren't the actual problem, sort've like the looters that steal from the stores when the area is ravaged, it's the bars hurting, the end of a trend in entertainment, or hopefully just a transition... I don't believe the undercutters are the actual problem.. THey too won't have KJ jobs in a short time.. Bars are hurting. that's the problem.. Blame law-makers, lousy economy, and the end of a fad...not the roaches that survive when the bomb is dropped and live off've scraps.  Why kill them during dire straits ? there's still nothing enabling you to survive.  When you look the picture differently, kill the roaches, a few of you can compete for what they were scurrying for.. NOthing is really out there anymore...Don't put the cart before the horse.....

If it was 1993 again, most that are good would be working, and bars wouldn't settle for second-rate on a new trend that's a huge draw.. Times are different now though... I doubt the lounges that pay 80 bucks, will pay someone else 300 if the kids fall off the face of the earth... They don't have it, so there's more competition for the fewer places that payout.. even less work because there's not the same demand for Karaoke in many places.. Texas Holdem is filling a little space, and people are doing other things now..Karaoke was a novelty to an age bracket that's now middle-aged, stay's home more despite laws making it tough on bars. The younger days of going to bars aren't as prevalent for those that were introduced to Karaoke mid-late 1980's, and to the younger generation of bar dwellers, karaoke isn't exciting, to them it's always existed, just like microwave ovens and cell phones... not a knew concept to their age group... they've done it elsewhere even before they were of drinking age. Karaoke has existed in bars in some way shape or form (at least in my area) since 1986.  It's not new around here... twenty years old.

Food for thought

JMO


{I need to crash my fingers are having a blast here, but my minds nowhere to be found}

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Maybe we are all guilty to some extent, of the things we b*tch about most...jj

I voted NO to reglations.  I don't want someone telling me how to run my shows, or reglating how I do business.  In my area there are a few people that charge a very minimal ammont for KJing/Djing, but you get what you pay for.  If someone wants to hire the dj/kj on  the low end of the price scale, I say let em.  If they are then unhappy with what they get, word-of-mouth will eventualy get around, and people will not hire that person any more.

I guess I am lucky in the area that I live/work in (rural Iowa).  There are a few DJs/KJs that do charge the $50 a nite gig, but is is mostly their hobby, and they really are not in it to make a lot of money.

And here is a quote that I think we should all live by.....

"Succes is simply a matter of doing what you do best, and not worring about what the other fellow is going to do."  John R. Amos

IF you provide a quality service at a resonable rate, yo will get gigs.  It may take a while, but the word will get around, and people will be hiring you.

Music Unions

I was forced to be in the orchestra union at 16 if I wanted to play
in the neighborhood symphony that played in the park every Sunday.
This was a well establshed orchestra that was comprised of mostly adults.
I wanted to do it because I enjoyed playing and it was a great experience.  I made $12 everytime I played. I always recented I had to join. Did they do anything for me?
Better pay - no,    Get me more gigs - no

I belonged to the music union when I played in a band. I think it was the American
Federation of musicians or something like that. It was about 20 yrs ago. The only
thing this union did for us was make a good threat if we had a gig that didn't want to pay.

I have found unions are a joke. If you have a problem getting paid sure they will help you - they steer you towards their lawyers who will charge you for their services.

Do I want to be regulated - no.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I think anyone who visits this forum and reads the information will get educated on ethics, industry etc. without having regulations.

My vote is NO

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I bought & learned to play the guitar because I wanted to learn how to play.  I enjoy it.  I didn't do it for some out of reality dream - although I did play in several bands because I enjoyed it.  No money makers, just had fun.  To me if i'm having fun playing music & somebody else is enjoying it, then I guess you could say my dream came true.  Wasn't trying to become rich or famous.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

By the way, how did you get into the racket?

Michael that got me thinking. Even if you start with the best equipment,
it doesn't necessarily mean you are good at what you do. I have learned so many
things through the years. Everything from crowd control to running the equipment.
Experience counts for a lot. There are just some things you have to learn by doing the job.

How do you regulate experience?

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Hey gang, I'm new here...but for many years I have been a moderator on a DJ forum. We actually have a DJ101 forum there especially for newbies.

Sometimes newbies get short shrift or even ridiculed by some of the longtime or more experienced members. I agree that pointing people in the right direction in terms of professionalism goes a long way - whether that is in their choice of gear, negotiating with venues, performance skills or whatever.

Certain newbie questions are cyclical, and toward that end maybe a page can be set up with links to those "standard" threads that newbies can read through before asking the same questions others have already asked.

We all started somewhere - some of us had the benefit of a mentor or a collected body of knowledge such as this forum. Some of us may feel we are helping a prospective competitor and are hesitant to give others the benefit of our experience. I believe it's worthwhile to adopt a "pay it forward" attitude toward enhancing our industry as a whole.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a wannabe problem if the purpose here is to share experience and knowledge.

Just my 2¢

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Dan McKay
Party Hits Entertainment
Seattle
http://PartyHits.com

Every KJ on this site was a wannabe at one time.  Every body has to start out somewhere and I'd venture to say that most successful KJs started out on the low end of the market and worked their way up the ladder. As far as KJs helping others on this site, a few of them went out of their way to help me and guess what - the equipment that they recommended sounds better than the equipment owned by most of our professional KJs here in our area.  I've owned several businesses and not once did I start at the top.  In the alarm business they call new comers bottom feeders.  But, believe it or not there is a market for the bottom feeders.  If it was not for the bottom feeders most low income families would not have alarm systems.

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Singing just for you

Was this directed to anyone?

I started out about 90-91.  My parents owned one of them all in one Pioneer Laserkaraoke players.  They would go out and sing all the time - karaoke had just started taking off about a year or 2 earlier.  One of the companies they used to follow had overbooked & needed another system, so they rented my parents.  Well when they got it, the didn't know how to incorporate it into their pa.  I was doing sound engineering for bands at the time, so my parents asked if I could help them out - which I did.  After that they asked me to become their equipment manager - paying me better than what I was getting as an engineer.  About a year after that, they threw me in hosting - never looked back.
Started my company in 93.  First system consisted of some new but mostly used from pawn shops & friends.  Peavey Unity 1000 8 channel mixer (bought new), 2 Ross 15" 2 way (used) speakers which I upgraded internal components with new Eminence drivers & bi-amp capable crossover, Peavey CS800 power amp (used), Peavey CS1000 power amp (used), Alesis Midiverb 3 (new), Alesis MEQ230 eq (new), BBE Sonic Maximizer (used), Peavey powered floor monitor (used), Peavey VSX 2 way crossover (new).  I believe the entire system ran me approx. $2500 which I ran for almost 2 years before upgrading.  My library consisted of Pioneer laser discs, that was another huge outlay of cash, but luckily I found a store that would work with me & I got an entire set on a payment plan.  I had cdg future in mind so my player also played cdg (also bought new).  Total cost of my first system with discs approx. $8500-9000.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

In my case Lonman I have to admit. I had PLENTY of dreams. I still do.  Sure I loved the sound of the electric guitar, but I also thought from a young age "now that's a cool" instrument. I'd also not be totally honest if I didn't admit to (in my case) also considering "Chick's dig it".  Probably why I'm here at 50 trying to learn to sing now  LOL  <just kidding,  maybe, dunno>

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Wow, this IS a passionate topic-- haven't read thru all the posts but feel I must jump in on one item here...
You're right on the adapting to the market conditions but...

What is with the liberal bashing?  Yeah, there are cookie liberals and liberal ideas.  But, seems to me, much of the necon establishment is bent on doing the very things you're talking about-- telling you what's good for you,  imposing their morality, violating laws, the constitution and our privacy at every turn.  Let's see, of the top of my head---
-- We will tell you who can and cannot get married
-- We will determine how to keep the US "safe" at any price-- liberties, privacy and even violating the law (FISA, Outing an Agent, Bribes/scandals to win seats, conflicts of interest-Frist)
-- Recording Intl calls w/no warrants, getting "ALL" the domestic call records.
-- Misleading the public and getting us into an unjust and illegal war (Iraq, not afghanistan)
-- Spending us into oblivion (I thought small and less gov. was supposed to be the hallmark of conservatism).  I guess not.

As I said, yeah there are alot of cookie, strange liberal things... But there have also been quite a few good liberal programs, ideas and values.

Assuming you're a conservative, you may want to look at things with a bit more of an objective prism.