Karaoke Forums

Over the years I have read books by and listened to, on tape and in person, many highly successful business and motivational people.    Being in business is a total package.    From your presentation to your preparation.    The more you know about the ins and out of business, the more successful you will be, if you put your knowledge to good use.  (Right Steve.   You've been to these talks.   I read your Bio.)    Because you can sing and have some equipment , is no guarantee to success.   Unfortunately, some on here have made this assumption.    It takes a lot of hard work, sacrifice, time and money.   All of your investment in time and money may not be enough.    Hunderds of businesses fail each and every day.   Look what happened to downtown and Walmart.   You have to be able to compete at or above the level of you competition to survive.      Ma & Pa couldn't buy their goods as cheap a Walmart.   They didn't have the advertising budget, the supply lines and the bulk buying discounts.    Being in business is always an investment in something.    Spending more money at every turn.   Always a new kid on the block.   Walmart still has competition they worry about.    They do what it takes to stay ahead of them.   They have a board room full of experts to advise them.   They adapt and change to every new situation.    Above all, they know the strengths and weakness of the competition and use it to their advantage.     They knew Ma & Pa could last long and they waited them out.    Brutal...yes.    Ruthless.... Yes.   Successful.... YES.

Well that's easy for you to say, like i've told you before around here, the undercutters are so plentiful that several GOOD karaoke clubs have shut down karaoke altogether because the bars won't pay the higher price for the good systems & kj's, or they are just paying the low price & accepting it.  The ones that have gone back to the good companies have done it too late & some of the bars themselves are now closed.  
You must be in an area where you can command your price, if you try to even say anything over $100 bucks here to a bar manager, they will laugh in your face.  I started karaoke back in 89, started my company in 90.  At that point we had 3 systems & 2 companies that worked with us (5 total systems).  Each one was working a better than 5 nights per week at anywhere from $250-350 PER gig - mostly ran lasers until 95 then moved to cdg's as well.  We were very good, had great followings that would move from club to club almost nightly & we kept these prices all the way through the 90's up until about '98 when cd burners started getting more "karaoke" friendly.  At that point there was an influx of "burned" libraries hitting the market.  Karaoke was starting to appear on dang near every corner & some of the clubs that we tried to get & were shot down because of the price now had karaoke because someone could go in with an illegally obtained library & run the show for 1/2 the cost.  Some of these libraries grew tenfold over night surpassing the "legit" libraries quickly.  They were the going into the "legit" karaoke clubs & talking with the managers showing them THEIR book which was quite larger than ours due to the fact that they had no capital invested, they would do shows for $150 or less & the bar managers just figured...karaoke is karaoke, why not save $100-200 bucks per night?  That's just what started happening ALL over, it didn't matter how good the companies were.  In the 90's around here there were approx 10 VERY good companies, awesome sound, GREAT personality hosts, very fair & out of those, none remain (or at least remain to the extent that they once were, either scaling down from multiple systems to 1, or some have even jumped on the illegal wagon as well just to be able to compete).  Like I said, many of the "good" karaoke clubs no longer have it, or are closed altogether.  Most of the karaoke that is running here is less than desireable, the clubs are only paying a max of up TO $100 per night & you are almost LUCKY if you can find a club that pays THAT!

Luckily I still run private shows damn near every weekend.  Got out of the club work a couple years ago...there was no more point.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

In the days when the economy, DUI laws, smoking bans, zoning laws, extra hour licensing, (cops staking bar parking lots) and a few other extraneous factors weren't making things tough on bars (in certain suburban geographic locations), and "The Competition" was the only thing standing in the way of an entertainer's chances at attaining a job in a bar/lounge setting, I'd have agreed with this to a point Bigdog.  The scenerio "You can't change your competition, you must rise to the occasion, and make changes starting with you", or the "You either cut it, or you sink" cliche, of course has merit in a competitive setting where there isn't in fact a paucity of bars that DO pay what they once did. A huge problem for many however, is that during times when a higher percentage of bars are closing down (because they are having a tough time surviving in certain locations now-adays), and considering the fact that when bar revenue declines, entertainment payout isn't as generous; For many entertainers today, there just aren't decent paying positions in the survivng bars, particularly within a type of entertainment (Karaoke) that might very well be a "Fad" on it's last legs.  Some of us just don't live in areas where work is to be found.

Larger bands saw a decline of work in the 70's and 80's in the neighborhood bars that never really could afford to pay them unless they had a hefty cover, and large draw, those of us in horn bands just couldn't make ALOT of money. Those that did patronize the clubs however, just buying booze alone wasn't even enough to pay musicians. But when disco came around, few wanted to pay $5 covercharges weeknights to see us with the advent of one guy spinning a turntable, a decent lightshow and the young girls into their Saturday night fever, and Grease attire, wanting to dance under the mirror ball with strobes being the "in thing"... "That was happening" at that time anyway, and girls were as readily found at the "disco" which was everybit as socially interactive: The days of 7+ musicians were no longer (in an average bar setting weekdays), while many loved the Chicago, BS&T, sound, etc..Spinning Vinyl was MUCH more affordable hence more practical than live bands which bars couldn't afford and providing the DJ had the frills, (sound system, light setup, etc).. In fact bars just built in decent sound systems... It's not that bar owners didn't love bands, they LOVED saving money  :(  They could get away paying out less by hiring the DJ, and face it, if customers don't need to, they don't love paying cover charges on a tuesday night, when the bar next door is jamming with something new.. Musicians couldn't compete, we needed money that wasn't getting paid out anymore, wasn't our fault !  That's the point here I suppose.  There are extraneous factors that hurt entertainment.... We couldn't compete because times were changing, and we weren't needed. Our day of easy bar gig's were in the past.  Noones fault,  times changed....DJ was in...As was Disco..and ONE DJ could provide the entertainment for a few hundred bucks, when we needed to get at least $700, and THAT was cheap (for just a few hours mind you); so Less payout, more money in bar owners pocket..

In singles bars people wanted to have fun and meet, It wasn't the musicians fault we were becoming obsolete because our new competition, a playback device could furnish entertainment that was sufficient for "pickup" joints; Paying a band was never cheap, even when livebands were "in". Never an easy thing for a bar, unless you were a larger bar, or part of a chain bands cost $$$, If a bar has it to pay out, I suppose even then, if they can save money, they will opt to... Yet LOCATION is everything, and there aren't many hot locations today in suburban locations that are actually putting a squeeze on bars making it tougher for them to thrive.

Musicians essentially had to go solo, and do the "One man band thing".. Yet even the duo's, one man band types, were getting displaced by a new trend of Light Show's, and Disco which was coming into vogue. One DJ for a fraction the cost could give the bar-owner what he wanted,  so the bars started hiring DJ's for less money. Perhaps having Sunday night bands, or thursday night 2-fers specials with cover... and CT made that illegal. Cabaret license VERY tough to get.

Now things are tighter. Many can't afford to even pay one person decent money, so they are settling for the "kids" or Karaoke wannabes... Quality for a couple hundred dollars paid out each night means nothing to them when only 10 people are showing up for a short time to drink, and those that show are satisfied sitting at the bar watching sports, or playing pool, or Texas Hold-em, having one drink, and driving home hoping not to get busted for DUI. Too many bars unfortuneately are doing fine with the hack college kid charging $80 a night, and many nights his customer base doesn't even warrant any payout, in fact he can't afford to even pay his overhead and staff and open on the first few weekdays because the customers can't afford luxuries, they drink at home, they watch TV, and play pool, they can't afford to drive to the bar, it's not as exciting anymore anyway. Pool halls, and bowling alley bars suffice. For entertainment they go to coffee houses B&N, Borders, etc...softdrink joints around here are doing OK now.... Go figger  :(  Granted, those with few other commitments can move to locations that do have more bar-work, such as the cities, but most can not.  Life just doesn't make this easy for most with other commitments, most that aren't doing this as a primary source of income to begin with. Things in many suburbs and rural areas aren't the same as 25 years ago.

KJ's and DJ's, have to find alternate means of supplementing income now-adays in many locations. Alot of bars have cut entertainment, alot have closed down around my area, lot's are being bull-dozed, and office building are going up, or super stop and shops... and in many other suburban areas too. Law's make it tough for bars today.  As does the economy in general.  Entertainers get hit harder.

When times are really tough, we entertainers need to either become super creative, stick to music as a hobby, or realize that like certain folks in other fields, we've in essence become "over-qualified", and don't wish to sell ourselves short, by settling for $100 a night.  It's time to make a change, Times, economy, fads evolve..meaning at times what we specialize in has devolved. To improve on what we DID do, might in fact be pouring good money into bad money.  Assuming there's just no market.

Personally, I could've become a DJ.  I did FM radio work in HS, and college for years.. I didn't want to.  Wasn't my thing. Did some solo bar piano for abit, and eventually just accepted that if I'm not willing to tour anymore, and go thru the rigors of studio, it was now time to find a job  LOL...  It was fun while it lasted, and it could still be fun provided I don't need it to live on. We can hang onto what we love, but it's unlikely that we can indefineately know we will have income providing our craft assuming our area of expertise is furnishing entertainment to a business that's struggling. BARS today.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Our club is getting hit because of gas prices.  We are kind of tucked in the middle of nowhere which used to be the allure, but now it's kind of a drive & we have seen a decline because of gas prices cutting into their entertainment spending - yes I have talked with many of our regs that only come in once a week as opposed to 4-5 times per week.  Many have said they are either going closer to home (ALL have said 'accepting' the crappy karaoke - they can still get their 'fix') or they aren't going out at all anymore simply because their budget has changed & can't afford to go out anymore, one even stated that he bought his own system & are having weekend karaoke parties at his house.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I do remember when the music scene was changing between bands & Djs.   Yes, the economy has and is hurting all of us.   My crowds are shrinking, rapidly.    There will be some food and drink places that will not suvive this round.  It is a very big factor in establishing fees.    I had a full bar and 30 singers on Sunday and the bar took in $400.    At least 10 people drinking the free tap water, with a lemon that the bar owner had to pay for.    I have been telling all of my bar owners that they need to have a minimum drink price during the  entertainment.     Meaning that beer, pop and water needs to be the same price.   One guy wants to give free pop refills if you buy dinner.    I told him he can do it all he wants, but when the fork hits the table the free refills should end.    The bottomless glass isn't going to keep him in business very long.    

They want to use the cash register to see how good I'm doing.   That's OK, but don't give away the store and expect me to make up the difference.    NO FREE REFILLS, NO FREE WATER, ONE PRICE DRINKS.    Then it doesn't matter if everyone drinks pop.    We gotcha covered.    Everyone should understand that entertainment isn't FREE and someone needs to pay for it, by making purchases of food and beverage.    But when it's all said and done if you  are a bar owner and you are only willing to pay out so much $.   Would you rather pay it out for a Lonman system or a wannabe system.   The quality should still end up on top.    Bar owners are total idiots.    There are 3 things that affect a bars reputation.    Food, help, and entertainment.   If these suck the bar sucks.    Most of the bars that close are because they made stupid mistakes, aka. stupid business decisions.   If I don't want to pay for quality by hiring cheap idiots to serve food and drink and hire crappy entertainment, if I buy crappy food from my venders, if the place is a rats nest, then I pretty much stacked the deck for my failure.    My reputation for being an idiot will be seen load and clear.

At the end of the day, it is MY firm belief, that by setting yourself above everyone else by having a quality investment and being a top quality professional, you should survive the wrath.    SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.   It's still Big dog eats little dog.    RULES THE WORLD NOW and for the past 200 million years.   Being the best never hurt anyone.    I feel that you will have a better shot than the wannabe.    BUT this may include a reduction of your fee.     I'll pay for Lonman, if he wants to work, but it will be a little less than he usually gets.     BOTTOM LINE will be..... do you want to work or not?    Survival takes being able to adapt rapidly with change.    WE are going into a period (because of the high gas prices) that will require big changes to our fee structure and our spending habits.   Some of US won't make it.    Have you put the odds in your favor?

The bar owner where I work raises the drink cost a quarter
when karaoke starts. Instead of charging a cover charge
he raises drink prices when the entertainment starts. It
seems to work out fine.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Talking about cover charges, has anyone ever seen a cover charge for karaoke?    I never have.

Heard of them, never seen one.   I have seen places that have charged $5 at the door, but in return the patron receives a token worth $5 - to use on whatever they like be it food or drink.  If they choose to drink water  or coffee all night, then they still paid for their seat.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have been to 'pay if you want to sing' karaoke. And I have seen karaoke being used as a fund raising event. Such an event can collect bettween 1-3k $ just from the singing.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I won't do that.  I realize that as someone who can't drink, and is usually a designated driver, that If the bar doesn't make anything on me, (yet I'm taking up space intended for "paying customers"), they'll resent my presence in a short time.  Bar's often won't charge me for coffee, DC, ginger ale, etc..  So in such a case I make sure to tip generously, so bar backs, and bartenders alike develop a fondness for me.  When all is said and done.  I've often left 6 or 7 quarters on the bar...I've been known to pay up to 25 cents an hour for my parking space at the bar.  Now I know some of you are thinking,  "Kappy,  That's really unnecessary leaving such an exorbitant gratuity",  but hey,  It's just the type of guy I am !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

We recently had to convince a bar owner that at least on Karaoke Night ... he needed to start selling bottled water.  The profits from water are usually some the best that can be made.  MANY karaoke singers ... the hard-core "Im here to sing" regulars... often are water drinkers.  Sooooo.... whenever we are asked to do a gig .... we always find out if they sell water.  If not.. we encourage them to do so.  The owner of the bar has actually been quite surprised to see that it has made a noticeable difference in his total sales for the last two weeks.  

I do have to say ... when I first started to see clubs selling water (a few yrs. back).. I was a little shocked... but ... over time I've developed the philosophy that ... if you go out for a night of fun and entertainment ... in a bar or club... it's actually RUDE to think its okay to simply sit at a table and not patronize the bar &/or support them for HAVING entertainment.  We also do several "shout outs" during the night ... 'support your karaoke show ... make a beverage/food purchase' ... OR ... 'don't forget to tip your bartender'.  No one would go to a movie and expect to sit and watch a movie without having to buy a ticket ... or go into a restaurant and not have to buy SOMETHING ... if they intend to sit in the place for a while.  It really should be NO different for folks that come to Karaoke.  :shock:

Now.. I've still not decided on whether or not a cover charge is a good thing .. 'cause that can then become issues with licensing fees .. etc.  However, I sorta like the "exchangable token" concept that Lonman mentioned.  

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Wow what a great idea with selling bottled water. My boyfriend said when he went out with his friends to a club Friday half the bar was drinking bottled water. That really surprised me. Now reading your post it makes sense. I'm going to suggest it to the owner of my bar. Great idea!

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Babs, people usually pay for my ideas......

Here's big 20 Dollar Bill for ya Dog!!!

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ROBDOG *WOOF WOOF*

Is that the queen in the $ bill?

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

NO PROBLEM, Babs.  Happy to share (and at no charge ...  :roll: ) ... We are all in this thing together.  We ALL face the possibility that if the bar/club isn't making money ... then we likely won't have gigs in the long run. The other thing we suggested to the club we are in that doesn't have any food services .. was putting out small plastic bowls of those little round pretzels.  VERY inexpensive .... and WOW ... does it make folks thirsty  :yes: .  

Funny..... several years ago .. one of the first gigs we had ... was at this great bar/restaurant that ran a "15 cent/per hot wing" night.  The wings were flippin' fantastic .... and the place was packed every night.... with very THIRSTY people.  Let me tell ya .... with that special AND Karaoke ... the guy was making megga bucks.  Unfortunately ... he sold the place when his wife got a job transfer .. and the new owners were brainless.  The place went outta business within about 8 months.  

But... back on track, now ... Sometimes adding a few "freebie" snacks at each table or if the place sells food .. running a special during karoake .. can also boost beverage sales.  

Just a few other suggestions .. based on things that seem to work around here.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Jian,  I think you are mixing up two different countries currency.  Queen is on the Greek currency.  You're thinking of the Freddy Mercury dollar.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I hope I don't get into trouble for inuendo.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

what?  I don't see any falic looking bananas.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Oh that ?    Nah.  Don't mistake something symbolic representing a countries "fruit" with something goofy Bab's.....For shame !!!   Incidently there's a reason behind why the US discontinued circulation of the Mercury Dime back when it did.  They had the insight to forsee what the 80's and 90's decades would evolve to.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".