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Don,  I want to bring up something from the perspective of a person who is attempting to help others when they ask for honesty, requesting nothing less..This is what I personally find difficult about a process that is NEVER easy for the party trying to help someone else.

By definition, how does a person "Critique" another individual without mentioning areas that can stand some improvement ?  If someone sounds out've tune in a spot, and I mention where that "spot" is... Naturally some will construe what I've done as "ripping a scab" off've a person, or "pointing at their zit". That's not the intent however. Sure, in a sense a Critique can ALWAYS be viewed as negative if that's how a person opts to perceive the process..  I wish Phill had in a heading "Critique for serious singers only", because in actuality it's never a "pretty" process, or copious praise that enables an artist to grow when a real problem exists that people "just don't have the heart" to broach. It was with alot of discomfort that I improved beyond average in certain places, assuming I did in specific areas. What felt natural to me, often ended up a tougher habit to break as time went on. Yet looking back who really helped me.  The people that said "great job little Stevie", and petted me on the head and walked away when I was playing like crap, or those that told me how I could play better ?  Obvious the latter.  How can a teacher teach without ever pointing out error's ?   Similarly, how can a student learn if they are just receptive to hearing praise, and feel beat up at the slightest mention of, "I feel you can stand some improvement in ______ area(s)". If we could all advance to 7-9 rank performers on our own there'd be no logic in having anything such as Critique, or recitals where students and instructors rank fellow students, and we wouldn't grow up in a society that looks at grades, and Cumulative averages, SAT scores, and various other calibrations to determine where a person stands in comparison to others because noone would care. Everyone would be as achieved, or average as they wish to be.  In which case why would anyone care about a "Critique" at all ?  So why do YOU people ask for critiques and ranks if you already know you are 9's on a bad day. Wouldn't it be more honest to just ask for praise, and a fair rank that fall's between 9.0 and 10 ?
Realistically whenever I got too confident, I got my butt kicked and fell off my pedestal crashing to the ground not wanting to get back up. Yeah, I wanted to always get 10's too.. I loved getting superior scores, and excellent scores when I was 4-5 years old, what I didn't realize is that ALL the 4-5 year olds were receiving excellent scores.  It was a psychological thing that was being done to keep us interested long enough until we showed up old enough at 6 and 7 years old, only to receive "very good" learning that NOW there are expectations of us in the real world. Like the sweet kid I was, I threw wicked tantrums telling everyone I hated them when I found out superior was alot better than my now "Very good" score.  I don't know why I always stunk at getting "ranked" even from a young age.  Perhaps it's just the kind've bratty spoiled kid I still am. There were kid's who were MUCH better "sports" than I was, and didn't tell the judges they hated them the following year only to get dragged out.. I sucked at taking criticism, and I held a grudge.

As a result, for me, whether it's a friend, or total stranger, I NEVER feel comfortable offering constructive criticism, because I never know who is mature enough to handle it, assuming they handled it last month, will they take it today ? Do they really want it at all ?  Is my presentation "soft" enough, and balanced ? We never know. Last thing I want to do is step on somebodies toes upsetting them. It's not worth my effort to try to help someone by attempting to be somewhat objective, and NOT assume all are like I am.. Even today I can take a few blows now and then however.  Yet I'd never ask for "rank"... For what ?  How many out've 50 songs in Singer's Showcase can POSSIBLY retain a 9.5 average ?  That's not realistic !  Yet if that is truly what's important, than that's fine too.. Sad thing is, those that want to know realistically how they stand, lose out. Some actually do want to know the truth.

Knowing what I "Critique" will be postive, but also slightly negative, (if for no other reason than the critique also points out weaknesses, or areas that need improvement in order for a person to progress). This is how we grow. To some pointing out the "off-pitch" areas within their submitted work, or offering different ideas,  will often be considered "nitpicking" by some others.  I'd hope a person would realize if I mention an area, it's because I in fact DO NOT believe it is nitpicking... I certainly hope if a person asks me for feedback, or honest criticism, they WILL take what I say as being honest, serious, and accept that ANY Critique I ever give, is given with the intent of NOT building myself up, but doing all I can to help a fellow musician hopefully at one point achieve a "10", Some are better musicians than I ever was, there's no competition in my mind, I learned ages ago I'm just a wannabe "10". I've never been a "10" at anything (with the exception of yacking away in chatrooms making a blazing pain in the sphincter out've myself), I've just got the knack !!

It's intent that must be looked at when a person give's a critique. Few have the time to type up a presentation and deliver an honest critique on a "silver platter" to make it look sweet... That's TOUGH, and really time consuming.  A genuine critique isn't easy for either party, yet many are quick to forget that the person trying to help often becomes the nail sticking out, we dared to be honest... and at times WE are the ones that get hammered.  We never know how we will be received, and we always take a chance of being rejected when we offer a critique.  Even when we've critiqued a person for a LONG time, People have off days and don't want to always deal with what others think.. most importantly, the process ISN'T meant to be a one-upping at all... It's intended to be friends helping friends.. It requires maturity,  and risk. You have to be honest enough with yourself to decide who's doing you the biggest favor assuming it's TRUE honesty you want.  Who it is that is realistically attempting to help you get the highest rank you can achieve in real.


When the person asking for the Critique, and the Critiquing party alike both view the exchange as one that's been  productive, and the person asking for a critique (who it should be safe to assume genuinely wants one), walks away with constructive ideas they'd not otherwise have had, THAT's all that matters. For this very reason, I agree with what CCindy stated earlier in this thread.  There are advantages to Critiques being a private exchange. It's not to ever be the person giving the Critique showing off, or attempting to upstage the performer with their garish display.. It's not about the person giving the Critique at all.  I try to present constructive advice to the individual I'm talking to only.  I try to find out what they want out've the whole experience, if it's obvious they've never had a music course, I don't get into theory.  It's about them, not me... The intent or objective is to help someone else..

Some just want to have fun, other's want to become pro's...  Neither should lose out. Why not have room for both here ?  Listening online people can in fact offer "tips" at times. Not all need instructors in real, yet nothing is beats having the right coach for you.. Thing is, good luck trying to find the "right coach".. Here there's alot of folks.  Most important thing is... People must state their needs, wants, and know just what those are !   Noone else can, and should have to second guess whether you "truly can deal with a Critique".. We're folks on a computer, not clairvoyant's.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven ~
Frankly when I first initiated this thread I was naive in that I didn't read the fine print where it states that a person can choose between 'just for fun" and "critique". I had just noticed that most of the comments were glowing with praise no matter how the song sounded. Yes, maybe there should be two critique options -- "public" and "private" critique for those who want serious criticism but maybe in private instead.  Public is shown to all and Private is PM's sent straight to the singer only.

Hmmm

J - just for fun

C- Sensitive, constuctive critism in public.

BC- Be constructive, but brutal in your critique (in a pm.) These are indepth
critques which may seem harsh, but I designed to nit pick even the best singers.

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Well.  I can't see any point in being "brutal", there's never a need for either extreme, I suppose that's my point. There is accountability BOTH ways.. The person offering the Critique has a responsibility to remain polite IMHO, and present facts as they see them, certainly nothing ad hominem.. There's very little (if anything) constructive in "brutal" , no one should "lay into", or attack a person, that's counterproductive IMHO..but I think you brought up something that many have a tendency to see, which is the all or none extreme aspect of this whole process, that's really what the problem is, a critique can be ANYTHING constructive that helps a person, as much or as little as a person feel's comfortable giving in terms of productive feedback, it doesn't have to be :thorough:, but I don't feel "white lie", or "lie" helps the person that wants honesty...  It requires some skill to constructively critique, if for no other reason than it shouldn't be "harsh" or offensive ... A person should have some understanding of the process.  The whole thing should be thought out. Taking the individual into consideration, and knowing what it is THEY wish to achieve... (Billy brought this up, and it's an excellent point)... It's really a matter of what the performer is trying to do with the song, not what *I* like. It's their thing....I have to try to help them achieve what they might want... (If I can, many times I'm too limited) Also an important thing to know.... (That is what I do not know). One thing that really get's risky is when you don't know what the vocalist is attempting to do with the song.. "Make it their own",  or "cover the original", etc... and they just ask "Tell me exactly what you think"...  Without direction, and asking questions, It's easy for me at that point to inadvertently impinge myself.... The singer should know what it is they wish to achieve, or do with a song.  THere should be some type of objective.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

But if it's something YOU don't like, it should be brought out as well - you as a crtiquer should give all the good & bad of what you heard.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

That's an interesting point Lonman.  It might be another grey area, I suppose SOME of what I feel can improve a piece can be stated as long as I'm capable of remaining open-minded enough to differentiate between what's constructive, and what's my own personal bias which might have no place in such a setting.

What I don't particularly like, might be a favorable embellishment given a certain style or genre. My own feeling is that the objective is to be as "constructive" as I'm able to be realizing at times my preferences and tastes might impede a positive experience for someone else.  I'm not sure if sharing ALL I dislike has a place in a critique of course. What's important IMO is that I help another person assuming I can, and try to remain openminded. I struggle at times with my personal dislikes starting to cross boundaries. Sort've like when playing with a band,  part of the compromise. Sometimes, I have little choice, and my opinion has little place.  I suppose in a similar manner as the "KJ", it's about providing something for someone elses benefit at certain times, while biting my tongue.  I've been asked to critique songs I'm not overly fond of. When teaching music,  I've figured out songs for students that quite honestly, I really don't like at all however differences in personal taste don't always prevent me from helping with specific areas (such as the more rudimentary and even less subjective aspects of a musical composition) by less subjective I mean areas such as pitch, other ear-training aspects, etc. Somethings are just pretty obviously off, and it's not about "style preference" in certain cases.  So while I might not like certain styles personally, I don't see a need for specific aesthetic preferences I have to enter into the picture. I think it's important that I take a deep breath, bite my tongue, and really try to be as constructive as I can be without interjecting too much subjective matter at times.  What I mean by this is assuming someone is attempting to cover a song, I can hear it.  I can recognise skill involved, although I might not like the song, or where they are going with it. I help where I can, and keep it constructive.

I'm wondering about this as we discuss it btw..  You gave some interesting food for thought.  I honestly don't know how much of "me" and "my taste" there is always room for in a constructive process.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Right but even though you may or may not like the rendition, that should be said in the critique.  Could be something even subtle as "I personally didn't care for the style in which.......but felt it was done.....?"  Or something like that.  Not everyone has to like every song.  You listen to certain music or a certain song & may like it, but then you hear a cover version & may dislike the way it was done.  You can say you don't like a version without it being deconstructive, if it is still DONE well, then let them know that too.

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Excellent points.  I didn't see the actual importance of this initially,  yet now I do. It creates a setting for a more open and honest exchange, and let's the other party know where I'm coming from, what my own HONEST likes and dislikes are which realistically aren't parts of myself I should fear sharing, since my own limitations aren't and shouldn't be secretive anyway. In a sense, I can see that in not admitting my feelings, and divulging my own preference, I'm really not being totally honest !

Really good point Lonman.  I didn't see this before.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Nevermind!!  LOL

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Go ahead Charmin, say

"Steve, and this is new's to us because ?  We were wondering when you'd come out've the closet exposing your shortcomings"  


(you know you want to)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

<Had to Edit>

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

My apologies for getting silly on this thread.  I don't want to do that.

I entered this over a "triplicate" post I edited out.  If I had the ability to delete my last post (this current content) that would've happened.  Not sure why dup. and triplicate posts are happening on my end today as well as yesterday.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

MJK,   Give this thread a read when you have a chance..  It'll give you an idea of what's transpired without too much of Pandora's box getting opened.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I usually look for something in the person's submission that was positive and point that out.  Many times they sound like they are putting their all into it and that feeling comes off, even though the whole thing may be imperfect and I comment on those at times.  What is sometimes dispiriting is when a pretty good singer gets just a few comments and someone that sounds like they gargle with old razor blades and have the reverb turned up SO high it sounds like the Vienna Boys' Choir gets a whole avalanche of excellent reviews. I have to be honest, I find myself incredulous reading some of these things.  

I'm fine with constructive criticism because I really want to be a fine singer. I work very hard at it and take it seriously (usually!). Maybe those of us who want this kind of critique should just mention it in the notes when we submit something.

speaking of that Aflac duck, you know, I met the GREAT Gilbert Gottfried a few months ago when he played in town.  Very nice guy and he DOES NOT sound like that at all.  We exchange e-mails and I've sent him some mpegs of my impersonations which he actually took the time to listen to and comment on.  Just thought I'd pass this on. He's a really nice guy believe it or not.

Thank you Steve...I'm unabashedly relieved now!

Don't worry.  It wasn't your imagination.  The situation you were seeing is quite real !


Insatiable Gold star envy exists.  Even among groups of middle-aged children

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I never make a negative comment. If someone complains about their recording, I try and give advice if it's relevant. Honestly though I have had someone say I was off pitch when I know I wasn't, so I don't take comments too seriously. I think that because it's opinion based, it makes it hard to take them seriously sometimes. The scoring system needs to be altered though, I have stopped giving ratings because people are able to make a nice comment then dump the person's score. I think if you give someone a low rating you should have to explain why you did it, so that the person isn't left wondering why they only got an 8.5 or something on a song they feel they sounded good on.

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

8.5 I consider a high score.  I don't think anybody deserves a 10 unless they are just spectacular.  An average score I would give is about a 5 for most performances which is why I don't score.  I have 2 songs in & one even I feel sounds horrid - at least nothing that I would enjoy listening to if I heard it on the radio,  the other is passable maybe a 6 or 7 I would give if I was just listening to it.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You ever think of writing a book Steve  :oh yeah:

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