Karaoke Forums

ok i decided to critique songs again, but at the same time try to be nice, i gave a guy a 7 and told him what i felt was wrong...IMO....then i have people with NO balls telling him its not that badddd, here i'll give you a token 10 to pick ur rating up...grrrrrrr....kinda defeats the purpose,

personally i feel if ur flat 4 r 5 times in a song, the best u can hope for is GOOD =7.
i thought i was being fair if not overly....

and i don't care if ur not into giving negitive comments, let the ones that will do it stand on what they feel is right....

its like haveing a child misbehave, 1 parent gets on to him for his on good, when that parent leaves the other steps up and gives him a kiss and 5 bucks saying i no he was wrong hun,  what good did that do?

after being off  quite a few times hes still getting GREAT SINGING, the guys asking for HONEST comments...

o well i've vented now....Billy

I put one song in and was elated to have so many nice comments. After listening to others and reading comments I sort of got the feeling everyone was just being nice even if someone does a poor job. I think that is very sweet. I don't have the balls to
put anything but a nice critique for anyone because it looks like that is the thing to do.
Don't get me wrong - most people sing awesome in the singer's showcase. I realise we'd be nit picking to find fault in a lot of singers.

If you want to critique me - have at it. I wouldn't mind some good old honest critism.
I think I posted my song April 21st.

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

not sure it was right to give a 10 to bring his score up but i do believe that along with hearing what they're doing wrong, they need to also know what they're doing right....i know if all i heard was the negative i would have given up a long time ago (and of course you already know that  ;) )  i liked how hanna gave some concrete suggestions on how to improve....

you're going to run into this whenever you critique though....ahem...remember how you felt when that guy gave me an 8?  

I don't think there is any reason to be nasty to anyone. I'd hate to be the person to cause someone not to input songs anymore. I think there is a nice way to give constructive critism. I'm sure my feelings would have been hurt if everyone cut me to shreads, especially the 1st time submitting a song. I don't beleive anyone is horrible. But like in the other thread when they were talking about cutting back on reverb. I thought that was great.

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

we've had some nasty ones come through and believe me it can really hurt the person who subbed the song....i remembered when it happened to one of my best friends, she was ready to quit singing and believe me she has a terrific voice and is very talented, plussssss she gets so much enjoyment out of singing, it's been a lifesaver for her...some people can let it roll off their back

i like to think i could handle something like that, but we're all human with our little insecurities ya know?

but as it's been said many times before, if you ask for critique, you should be able to handle it, good or bad

hi Babs, i had this long speech typed out and it poofed...l..

i just feel if someone ask for an honest critique they should get one, not more fluff, and if someone has the balls to give it don't go and put my critique down by saying (in so many words) ohhhhhhhh he was to hard on you, heres a 10 to make u feel better, what good did i do by being honest?   i would love to hear ur song babs, but steven and others r the ones to critique you, i'm very basic in my critiques...

milo, i agree in what ur saying, and i thought telling him he could do better was being nice, and a soft low voice was being nice, i felt... i agree with the positive negitive positive, but i also feel there will be people giving him/her enough positive to last a lifetime,  
i'm NOT a singing teacher, nor do i claim to be, i only know what i hear, right r wrong....to say ur not sure if giving a 10 was right r wrong is to say u may have done the same thing...
to me thats like 1 parent telling his child he/she was wrong then the other saying, ohhhhhh its ok baby, heres 5 bucks go out and play you did nothing wrong....what good did the first parent do?  i stand by what i said and meant every word of it, if i didn't sugar coat it enough then i'm sorry, but theres plenty sugar to go around on this site...
this shouldn't be a good cop bad cop thing here....maybe u feel differently....

if someone spent 20 bucks to have there song critiqued and they came down hard on them was that person wrong?  should you get 2 letters in the mail...one  titled...YOU WERE AWESOME....and 1 titled....AN HONEST CRITIQUE....and which would YOU want to read first, if u were being honest?  and which would you learn more from?

i didn't think i was saying it should be good cop/bad cop.....i'm sorry i didn't make myself clear (gosh darn it that happens to me all the d.a.m.n. time!! and, yes i actually said gosh darn  ;) )

i learn more from the positive AND the negative....that's just me...i'm sure it's different for other people....i actually wasn't aware of what i was doing right in my singing until steven told me....

p. s. steven, when you read this....i've got a song i'm really trying to polish, but i 'm running out of time to send them right now....i'll try and get them to you this evening

Out of curiosity, I listened to the song in question and read your review.  You were
100% right when it came to the many flat notes that he sang.  Also the mix wasn't that great -- very muddy sounding.  You were very detailed in your review which I think is good.  It helps the singer figure out the exact spots you're referring too.  Like Milo said, i think it's important to also mention the good points in the song too.  I don't think you were overly harsh or mean.  If a person puts a song up for critique, then they should be ready for whatever comes along I guess. But there's never any good reason for a reviewer to be mean or vicious about it.

I've only actually commented on a couple singers.  This is part of the reason I don't sub - I don't want to be told how great it is when it obviously sucks or ISN'T as great as people SAY it is, I WANT the critisism to learn where & maybe HOW to improve the song, I have 1 in right now that is very warbly, pitchy & I felt wasn't done very well, yet EVERYONE that commented said it was done great - I think 1 actually said a couple criticising comments which I looked at, but it wasn't done very well & it's still rated an 8.5 as of today.  If it were me judging I would have rated it at a 4-5 tops - which is why I don't comment either I feel I would be too hard on them as well as the ones that do ask for ratings/critiques are still getting false ones (how great or good it is) so anyone saying anything other than that, they may take as being hard on them or worse.  There are ways to tell people where they can improve without being a dick about it, but one shouldn't say an obviously low performance is great either.
Recording techniques are another thing I wish people would study a little more - less effects & more natural voice - clearer recordings, yes I know not everyone has the means sometimes, but if you have a computer, you can actually get a pretty good recording these days very cheaply.  When all I hear is the reverb, that is not a good song to listen to - to me anyway.  Effects should be underlying & accentuating the vocals, not taking over & being on top!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Now you're getting back into the contest realm.  Can take losing, can't take criticism, mad for months and won't be back.    Crying continuosly.....hurt feelings.   Violent mood swings.   Kill the judges.....    It's always a contest in their minds.    Numero uno, I'm number one, I'm the winner, I'm the best.    The whole time they are mediocre at best, in their mind.    I don't even want to get into this.....  [highlight=crimson]Nobody can take it.[/highlight]  It shouldn't be discussed, ever.     Just keep reading this over and over.   It may sink in.

I knew this would make it's way over here....Just haven't had time to check it out.  I'm the one who said I would give him a 10 to bring his score up so...I'm the one with no balls.  
Billy, I didn't say that anything you said was wrong but I did tell him that I thought he deserved a higher score than that.  I think you went way overboard on a first time submitter.  You could have pointed out a couple of things that you noticed and let it be.  But you kept on.  If this guy had been around awhile it may have been different if you realized this was what he was really wanting to hear.
One of the things that bothered me was that you mentioned that you sing the song......Just because one of us sings the song doesn't give us the expertise on the song.  You mentioned Conway Twitty....Well, Billy, you can sound like Conway...this guy doesn't have a voice to sound like Conway but it doesn't mean that he can't sing the song.  
The guy wasn't that bad....He has a good voice for country and as for the mixing....forget it...most first time submitter's mixes are not that great.   It was his first sub....give him a chance at least.  One or two pointers and bringing his attention to a couple of things this first time would have been plenty.  I felt like this guy needed some positive feedback after being slammed like that.  I'm sorry that you don't like that.  And you have the right to say what ever you want to but I also have the same right.  And as Milo pointed out...You got upset because someone gave her an 8 one time.   I wasn't upset with you but just felt like this guy needed some encouragement.  So blast me for it if that makes you feel better.
If you had a problem with me you could have PM'd me but no....we have to bring it here.

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

I have to check out just what happened in this particular case. After I do-so, I will edit this out, and enter my feelings on the situation.

OMG !!!  This means I'm even going to have to listen to the individual's submission and try listening objectively as if I've read none of this !!!


The situation's I end up in



ADDED IN:

Billy gave an EXCELLENT "Critique" IMO. He explained what he was doing, He substantiated this was *HIS* opinion (meaning it stands alone, and should be LEFT ALONE and not made to appear negative, it in fact was NOT negative in terms of "Critique").. It was constructive. Billy gave detail as to what he felt could stand improvement, and prefaced *HIS* Critique  (substantiating the JMO part) with the fact that HE does the same song, has *HIS OWN* feelings on what he'd like to see, and he DOES in fact feel the person *CAN* in fact do better, making it clear that he didn't rank or Critique the person outside of the individuals ability or achievable means.

In this particular case there's no need for me to listen to the song. What I feel regarding the performance is moot (in this case), reason being, it's no more correct, or incorrect than Billy's Critique. Billy made it clear that this was HIS opinion, and it was VERY constructive in it's detail, and the fact that Billy made it clear HE DOES FEEL the person is capable of improvement. That was *NOT* a Negative Critique by ANY stretch of the imagination.. This is how Critiquing SHOULD be... It SHOULD be assumed a person entering their material in the "C" category WANTS to hear this type of comment !!  Otherwise they have no right posting their material in "C"

KUDO's Billy,  Great Critique, I hope the person is realistic enough to appreciate your help and constructive effort !

Let's get realistic folks.... Critique does NOT mean "Deliver bouquet of flowers"

JMO


(PS.. and what the heck is wrong with a "7") ?

Have we forgotten what we are striving to do in Singer's Showcase ?  Which is to encourage kindness, AND honesty ?   Billy's Critique was both...


Folks, Isn't this what we are striving for ?  More honesty, and to NOT construe honest opinions as "negative" in a Critiquing context ? There WAS NOTHING negative about his Critique !  Seriously, WHAT was negative about the detailed analysis ? He qualified what he was doing at the onset, Made sure it was known this is HIS Critique, and he even had the ball's to say because of the above points, I can't in clear mind give this anything other than a "good" score... Don't denigrate BIlly's attempt at helping someone who might actually want help. It wasn't negative until it was judged as negative by a following Critique.

This is what we should want to see more of !  He had the ball's to give a Critique.. WHich is what the person asked for... and the person got a Critique and a GENEROUS score commensurate with the Critique..


JMO <--- Meaning while not factual,  It's the best I could do, and is MY
              my own feeling, not yours  (sticking out tongue   )

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

(This is my first. critique me honst honesty is the best way to get better. so hurt my feelings. i have other songs but most are over the 3mb limit to be posted if any body can tell me how to make them smaller that would be a big help. also still learning the mixing part any input would help to. thanks doug)

hi rita, as you can read above i think i gave him what HE wanted not what YOU wanted r anyone else....i wasn't trying to be mean and i didn't think i was...i thought i was prettry easy on him really....

(The guy wasn't that bad....He has a good voice for country)

i completely agree he has a GOOD voice, GOOD = 7... where am i wrong in that? u urself r saying he was GOOD...thats all i said...

the fact that i did sing the song doesn't make me an expert on it ur right, but by me singing the song does get me closer to the song, i wasn't asking him to sound like conway twitty, i did mention he did sing it,  he might not have known that...

(I think you went way overboard on a first time submitter)

he asked for an honest critique was i wrong in giving him one? even if it was JMO. thats all any of us can do....from his comment on his song i didn't feel he would be scared away by what i said,  i do think it will help him tho....again thats what HE asked for.....

I have no problem with YOU r anyone else disagreeing with me, i really don't,  and this theard wasn't just about you, altho u were the only one mention, but i used no name....its the whole i wanna honest Critique thing, then when someone tries to do that then he/shes tagged as being to rough,  i wasn't to rough, he got what he asked for, for someone to be honest with him,

rita he was off key like 5 r 6 times how can u not tell him?  how can you honestly give him higher then a 7, and thats high for being off that many times....i thought he did a good job on it, i did feel he lacked emotion, which i told him so......

to take it to pm with you would have meant it was just YOU, but its not...and we all know it....if someone doesn't want a critique fine....no biggie, i think we all feel that way, yet if someone, NEW r not ask for a honest critique i believe he should get one, again JMO....

you feel i was to rough on him as a newbie, i don't,  i believe he came here wanting to be helped, u look at it as maybe scareing him off...i look at it as if he didn't get an honest critique and just a lotta fluff like we all get i think he might stand a better chance of leaving....

(If this guy had been around awhile it may have been different if you realized this was what he was really wanting to hear)

rita go read what HE asked for....its not up to me to realize what he wants....hes telling US what HE wants,  



(I felt like this guy needed some positive feedback after being slammed like that. )


 i think you know this site as well as i do, theres no shortage of positive feedback here don't you agree?  i'm sorry you feel that was slamming,  its sad when being flat several times and getting a 7 is slamming....a 7 was a very good score....
honestly rita what do you feel he HONESTLY deserved?  a 10 has got to be the standred around here, i think were going to have to start rating to 20...

i wasn't asking him to copy me r conway r anyone, in fact i did tell him to make it his own, to try and work around those high notes he WASN'T  hitting if he could...


(So blast me for it if that makes you feel better)

rita i'm not going to blast you hun,  this is not just you, thats why it is here and not in a pm....others also said he was great....now if someone is slightly off i can see trying to look the other way but he wasn't slightly off...and for others to say GREAT,  i feel they were doing him more harn then good...but that is that positive feedback u were talking about....

and i can take it as well as dish it out, i beg for honest critiques on here, as alot do...
key word is honest....i did not slam him, yes i could have said more nice things i guess, and i could have layed back on the bad things, and i guess i could have also givin him a 10 also....but i didn't,  thats not what HE asked for...

and i don't mind you defending urself ar all, u have that right as well as i do....again this is much bigger then you and what you said...and i'm sorry if i upset you, i hope we can remain friends....huggggs Billy

Billy, I feel like like the guy's score is where it should be....an 8 at the least by the standards that is given out here.   I realize that the guy asked for honest feedback......You pointed out what you felt was honest feedback...well, so did I. I did not say to him that I thought anything you said was wrong.  All I said was I felt like he deserved better.   If this guy had been horrible I wouldn't even have left a comment at all.  I would have just let you guys have it but when I hear someone that has a good voice and someone that I would like to hear more of then I want to encourage them to sub more.   I went back and read your comment again after reading this post and listened to his song again.  You were hearing some flat notes that I don't hear....I'm not saying they aren't there but I listened pretty close....His volume was fairly low but I couldn't really make out that the notes were flat.  
I think he's better than "good".  And that's my honest opinion and you have every right to disagree with me on that.  
You brought up the thing about kids....You know if my husband (which I don't have one..) jumped my kid's case for bringing a B home instead of an A and treated him like it was an F then yes....I think I would have to step in with some positive reinforcement.  There is nothing wrong with having some positive thrown in with the negative.   I don't do negative critiques and will tell someone up front that I don't when they are asking for critique but I'm not saying you shouldn't give it when asked.  I just felt you were overly harsh on a first time submitter....that's all.  But I didn't blast you for it in my comment to him.   I wasn't upset about any of this until it found it's way here.  And no....this doesn't cause hard feelings as far as I'm concerned. I'm a big girl and I can take you disagreeing with me.  
Hugs back to you,
Rita

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

Completed comment above  :shock:

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven,

Be realistic......Most first time submitters would be very discouraged with a critique like that on their first sub. It's just human nature.  Pointing out a couple of things would have been sufficient.  Wait for their next sub to go to another level.  

Some of you get so technical with all this that it scares people off in a heart beat.  
I'm not saying Billy didn't give some good advice and the ones of us that have been around here can realize that.  I could take something like that a lot better now than I could have the first time I subbed something.  But still....there is nothing wrong in someone coming along and telling the guy that there was some positive aspects to his submission.  

My comment to this guy in no way attacked Billy.  It just merely stated that I didn't agree with the lower score which I didn't.  And I will stand by that.  He was better than "good" in my opinion.

Edit: I hope the guy doesn't come to this forum or we'll all have scared him off discussing it like this.

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

Rita,


I think we can turn around the "Be Realistic", Many have agreed that the HONEST Critiquing in order to actually come to fruition in SS in time, must start with the new person.  Not the person already spoiled by "10's" and fluff.  This is a new person asking for a Critique, and it's not up to me, you, or anyone to try to protect a person asking for Critique, from a Critique !  REALISTICALLY, that was NOT a discouraging Critique.. It's something the individual can view particulars in, reference them, and come away with;

"So that would really make a difference in my performance you think ?  Thanks"

Let's not use "our own" sensitivity as a gauge of what all others asking for Critique can handle.  It's implied when you ask for a "C", you want one... Not that the Critiquing party must handle you with velvet gloves... Billy DID tell the person something positive..  He told them that polishing up those few areas would make a substantial difference, He told the person to add more emotion to it, and mentioned areas where it can be fine-tuned, gave particulars where it wasn't to pitch, etc....

I stand by my comment... Excellent Critique !

Nothing personal regarding anyone,  Just that this is what I PERSONALLY would hope to see more of.  If a person can't handle Critique, Let those now viewing what Critique actually is.... Start to post in the category instead of those too frail to deal with a Critique.. The new person DESERVES what he asks for..  Billy *IS* familiar with the song, he performs it, and substantiated that "From one colleague to the next this is how I feel", he didn't denigrate the person but  he gave constructive comments, that a mature individual CAN handle... You felt it was negative Rita, and termed it as such.  It didn't appear negative until it was deemed as such.. If someone construes THAT as negative given the intricate areas that were explained.. They are wrong for sub'ing in "C"..

Let's HOPE that those sub'ing in the "C" category ARE realistic, or begin to become more realistic, and can handle constructively meant scrutinization of their material... That's what "C" means.. Not babysitting for delicate folks...

JMO...

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Rita,  I think he should come here.  This is not secretive !   He might be a "10" rank singer in my opinion,  He might be one of the best I ever heard.  Who knows,  I might even personally like his rendition more than Billy's..  Yet that wouldn't make me correct.  Perhaps more "out there" agree with Billy... Perhaps I would... Point being, there's so much fear around here of being honest, there's a paucity of constructive Critiquing going on... THere was in fact nothing negative about Billy's Critique..  The person didn't post in "Comments" only... He asked for a Critique.. He deserves one !  This isn't bashing anyone... THis is what we struggle with incessantly over in SS.... We wouldn't need to if fewer feared giving 4-8 ranks when GENUINELY deserved in someones's honest opinion !

Dishonesty in SS has also driven off certain people.  Some DO want to know "What could I have done better" ?  and state "don't baby me", etc.   I've received this in PM's, people that see the dishonesty in SS, and don't believe the comments in their "C" category..

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven,  

This basically all started because I and some of the others (Mainly myself because my comment is the one that was mentioned in the first post) gave positive feedback to a guy that someone had given some negative feedback to.  Billy was upset because of this and brought it here.  You guys see a newbie come on here and not knowing the ropes and he or she asked for critique and it's a license to slam him.  So go at it..Give all the "helpful" advice you want ....but don't get upset when someone disagrees with you.   I didn't say that Billy's critique was wrong...I just thought it was a bit much for a beginner.  This is just my opinion so don't take it so personally.

And I really take offense to your comment of "using our own sensitivity as a gauge".  You know......this world would be a hell of a better place if people were more sensitive to other people.  And if I'm sensitive about something I'm sure there are other people that are too.  Unfortunately this site is set up for critiques but I haven't seen one soul really like it.  It causes all kinds of disagreements mainly because everyone is not going to like the same things.  Some of you say you can take it but I've seen enough whining in these forums that I've realized there is no one on this site that can take it.  You may say thanks on the board where the comments are but the whining always ends up here or in a feud through the PM's.  That's the reality.

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

rita i understand where ur coming from i just don't agree with it, i'm not here to hurt anyone just to help, if i can....i can only go by what i know...nothing more....
you want to protect him by giving positive feedback and i want to expose his weakness by telling him what i feel could be improved on....and that is what he asked for....glad were still friends....


steven glad u agreed with the critique, i don't hear near what you do, i just deal with basic's.....i think theres room for both...

i know the basic of singing the rest is god givin,  i learned alot thru singing alot, but i learned alot FOR ME,  others have to do there on work, but helping when i can doesn't hurt either....ty again my friend....now go critique milo.......be tuff  on her.

huggggggs Rita