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Odie
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:49 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:37 pm wrote: I wouldn't think that could be the case Don, assuming they too find it's
A) readily available
B) medicates stress, anxiety, and esteem issues as affectively as it does many
in our culture.
My feelings are it has nothing to do with "novelty of forbidden substance" that makes it so dangerous, but rather its chemical properties as a hypnotic depressant
substance that creates false confidence, medicates stress and anxiety as well as temporarily calms affects of severe depression anxiety. What I think is so dangerous is that initial "psychological warmth" or euphoria created by it's dopamine release.. That's the hypnotic aspect before it takes action as a CNS depressant. It
s an enticing drug. I'm wondering why it'd be less dangerous for european people than American people... It's ether.. It anesthetizes.
Bottom line is that a lot of our brain chemistry is out of balance. That's really the root of many psychological problems out there. We don't really need more prescription drugs though. There are ways of boosting or decreasing these brain chemicals through nutritional supplements that can increase the amino acids needed.
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:29 pm |
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Don, I'm wondering if mental health, and acceptance as well as males being more free to cry in europe, and express emotion, and concerns has something to do with a lower rate of needing alcohol as an out. In many ways we are a more inhibited society, but believe me, I've known MANY europeans who've come to this country, actually Albania, Russia, Germany, etc... Even Ireland.. and these people get Xitfaced EVERY bit as much as we do, here they lose their licenses too, end up incarcerated for a night, lose jobs, and act nutty too.... EVen asian people do...
I'm inclined to think the only difference is that american press is ALOT more open than european press regarding taboo aspects, and perhaps it's all our countries perception of drinking, and it being bad, as you say "just say no" won't work...It can't... especially coming from my perspective...
Assume Heroin, Morphine, Barbiturates, Cocaine was legal ? Just say no won't work for controlled substances that are readily available.. Not for people who don't wish to suffer acute short term emotional and even physical pain (I've medicated for toothaches too), in the old days, people drank before extractions and dental work... While ether existed, novacaine didn't...
I explained in PM the nature of my curiousity. Not as a challenge, but genuine curiosity given the nature of one of the potentially fastest addicting substances, as well as a substance with acute withdrawal symptoms everybit as dangerous as barbiturate and benzo withdrawal symptoms if not worse.
So while we look at younger kids drinking in europe, younger kids always drank here in the US too :) and by HighSchool age especially in the 60's and 70's Jr High kids were passing the bottle on the school bus, HS kids were perpetually drunk, and than there's college ? WE get alot of exposure to liquor as youth in our culture too, although not readily accepted, MANY young teens start drinking heavily here too..... I'm wondering if the only difference is how cultures deal with their ill...and if europeans emotions aren't quite as repressed as americans... If there's more acceptance perhaps...
I think someone who's lived in europe, or a member of this board from europe could answer this question. Too bad Allstar isn't still around, he grew up in the Netherlands.
I'm going to guess that alcoholism exists everybit as much in europe as it does here, we just don't know about it.
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Jian
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:41 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ 10th March 2006, 9:14 am wrote: Quote: That's true. Not positive, but I don't think most of the teens in Europe use alcohol in such an extreme way as over here. Since it's culturally allowed at that age, it's probably not as exciting. I'm going to have to disagree with this "excitement" aspect Don. Unless of course genetically their physiology is different, and alcohol doesn't have the hypnotic depressant quality it does here in the states, that makes it such a prime choice for "self medicating", and the potential for alcoholism. I had my first drink around 10, even at sedar's ? <SP> and family religious get togethers, I started drinking blackberry brandy. and red and white wines very sparingly and getting drunk sporadically at around 11, Thing is, when the dizzy feeling passed, I'd maybe have the occasional drink at most 2-3 times a year, even fearing that "drunk" sensation. I didn't become addicted to alcohol until around 22 (drinking age was 18 ). I drank occasionally up until 21, but it's when I needed it to self-medicate I became addicted, in a similar way tolerance builds to benzodiazepine class tranqs.. I think the same conditions would also exist in europe, UNLESS our culture is more open about alcoholism. and we don't hide our drunks.. Why is there any reason to believe that human beings, unless physiologically predisposed in very different ways in the US, would use ethyl alcohol to medicate, and humans in europe would not also have such a propensity for alcoholism unless metabolically American people interact differently to alcohol. or the stress/alcohol interaction is different ? Alcohol can medicate certain mental states more affectively short-term more affordably, and faster than even our most potent category 2 narcotics. I think the fine line between abuse, and use is how brain chemistry reacts to ether. Whether the european people do, or do not get a dopamine release from alcohol might be the only difference, but my guess is they do. I was introduced to drinking by my dad. I was 5 maybe 6 when that happen. It was during the local festival. He forced me to drink one full glass of the local brew. Needless to say I pass out after that. The next day, he told me to never drink in excess. That's his way of saying ;now that you know what's like been drunk, you do not need to go thru it anymore.
I my whole life I had a firm control of my drinking. When karaokeing I set a limit of 3 beers for the nite. FULLSTOP. Even if friends pass me the extra I will pass it.
This control I think have to do with what happen when I was 5/6yrs old ,mamy years back.
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Odie
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:44 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:29 pm wrote: Don, I'm wondering if mental health, and acceptance as well as males being more free to cry in europe, and express emotion, and concerns has something to do with a lower rate of needing alcohol as an out. In many ways we are a more inhibited society, but believe me, I've known MANY europeans who've come to this country, actually Albania, Russia, Germany, etc... Even Ireland.. and these people get Xitfaced EVERY bit as much as we do, here they lose their licenses too, end up incarcerated for a night, lose jobs, and act nutty too.... EVen asian people do...
I'm inclined to think the only difference is that american press is ALOT more open than european press regarding taboo aspects, and perhaps it's all our countries perception of drinking, and it being bad, as you say "just say no" won't work...It can't... especially coming from my perspective...
Assume Heroin, Morphine, Barbiturates, Cocaine was legal ? Just say no won't work for controlled substances that are readily available.. Not for people who don't wish to suffer acute short term emotional and even physical pain (I've medicated for toothaches too), in the old days, people drank before extractions and dental work... While ether existed, novacaine didn't...
I explained in PM the nature of my curiousity. Not as a challenge, but genuine curiosity given the nature of one of the potentially fastest addicting substances, as well as a substance with acute withdrawal symptoms everybit as dangerous as barbiturate and benzo withdrawal symptoms if not worse.
So while we look at younger kids drinking in europe, younger kids always drank here in the US too :) and by HighSchool age especially in the 60's and 70's Jr High kids were passing the bottle on the school bus, HS kids were perpetually drunk, and than there's college ? WE get alot of exposure to liquor as youth in our culture too, although not readily accepted, MANY young teens start drinking heavily here too..... I'm wondering if the only difference is how cultures deal with their ill...and if europeans emotions aren't quite as repressed as americans... If there's more acceptance perhaps...
I think someone who's lived in europe, or a member of this board from europe could answer this question. Too bad Allstar isn't still around, he grew up in the Netherlands.
I'm going to guess that alcoholism exists everybit as much in europe as it does here, we just don't know about it.
 LOL LOL OK, Ok. It's confession time everybody! I don't really know that
much about the social life in Europe. I've never been to Europe. Heck, I've never been East of the Oregon border! LOL LOL I just took a slightly educated guess.
But apparently my teacher was from the ACME "You too can learn teaching at home"
school. Boy this is a tough crowd here tonight! :dancin:
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:47 pm |
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Jian, When I was 8 my mom handed me a cigarette, and said, here...inhale fast and hard, I passed out and threw up... At 15 I started smoking, 20+ years later I quit smoking 3-4 packs filterless ciggies per day. I was at least a 3 pack a day smoker for 15 years.. Quit for good around 1987...
For some, what your dad did works, for other's it doesn't..
Here's something interesting I found out... The answer to my question is that there are INDEED differences in genetic makeup, predisposition, and serotonin has ALOT to do with this, Brain chemistry is different among certain cultures too..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genes that regulate certain chemical byproducts of alcohol are under intense scrutiny. Alcohol is metabolized in a two-stage process: it is first converted to acetaldehyde (AcH), which is then converted into acetate. AcH is being researched because it plays a role in most actions of alcohol, including damaging effects on the liver and upper airway. It also may be protective. For example, some people, particularly in Asian and possibly Jewish populations may be less likely to become alcoholic because of a genetic deficiency in AcH, which produces a build-up of acetate after drinking alcohol. Acetate is toxic and in high amounts causes to flushing, dizziness, and nausea. Individuals with this genetic factor, then, are less likely to become alcoholic. (This deficiency is not completely protective against drinking, however, particularly if there is social pressure, such as among college fraternity members.)
Some people with alcoholism may have inherited dysfunction in the transmission of serotonin. This is an important brain chemical known as a neurotransmitter that is important for well-being and associated behaviors (eating, relaxation, sleep). Abnormal serotonin levels are associated with high levels of tolerance for alcohol. They are also linked to impulsive and aggressive behaviors, which can predispose people to drink and also increase the risk for dangerous behaviors and suicide in alcoholics. (Serotonin abnormalities can also develop from environmental pressures as well, such as early loss in childhood.)
Restoring Pleasure. Alcohol releases the following neurotransmitters (chemical messengers in the brain) and other chemicals that produce pleasurable feelings:
Dopamine. Produces euphoria and a sensation of being rewarded. Repeated alcohol use increases sensitivity to dopamine.
Serotonin. Produces feelings of well-being.
Opioid peptides. Important for well-being.
ALCOHOLISM EPIDEMIOLOGY
RATE OF ALCOHOLISM:
Indian & Eskimo high
Northern european Moderate
Jewish, Asian Low
Irish High
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Isis
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:09 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:47 pm wrote:
RATE OF ALCOHOLISM:
Indian & Eskimo high
Northern european Moderate
Jewish, Asian Low
Irish High
According to this I am doomed to be an alchoholic I have everything except jewish and asian.....
Guess I'll just go have a drink and not think about it.
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Will sing or fish for food!!I'm not quite right!!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:20 pm |
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Also interestingly Italians (from what I've read) have a lower incidence, and they are one of the cultures who drink alot when young too. Nationality has alot to do with the way alcohol physiologically affects a person, and that is the answer I was looking for... I assumed it did the same to all of us.. Made us high, and euphoric before we numbed up.... I never really got hungover initially, probably one of the reasons I kept going... It took massive quantities for me to feel it afterwards... Had I gotten sick from it, I'd likely have never had serious probs later on...
Yeah Isis, Alot of Cherokee friends of mine, and a few Norwegian and Swedish people I've known (Northern Europe, Scandinavia) really had substance probs...and here's what it seems now when I think about it..... You know how certain locations have less light ? IOW...Eskimoan, and Scandinavian people go sometimes 6 months with darker conditions around the arctic circle area ? Probably a correlation between SAD Syndrome, over time less light=less Dopamine in brain, Perhaps Vitamin B & D deficiency ??? and depression causes people to self medicate with substances that increase dopamine.... alcohol, carbs, sugars, even sex....
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Singing Squid
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:23 pm |
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Quote: ALCOHOLISM EPIDEMIOLOGY
RATE OF ALCOHOLISM:
Indian & Eskimo high
Northern european Moderate
Jewish, Asian Low
Irish High
I'm screwed!!
English, Irish, Scottish, French, German, Dutch, Apache and Cherokee...just put a loaded gun in my hand :O
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[glow=white][scroll]Live, laugh, and love today--just in case tomorrow doesn't make it[/scroll][/glow]
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:27 pm |
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Well, It showed that you were acutely sensitive Dave... Just as you had issues with relationships you raised in here. I kept them to myself and knocked myself out with booze.. Same concerns, that's why I've learned abit about these areas... .. I wasn't born an old fart that's been there, and done that... I paid my dues, and know firsthand. I just suffered silently, and got drunk..
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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:30 pm |
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Do guys cry now ? I wasn't allowed. It was seriously condescended on my whole upbringing. MEN DO NOT CRY, it's a sign of weakness, women do that..
It's all I heard... I can no longer cry.
I just crack jokes at catastrophe's...pretty pathetic 
It's called gallow's humor
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Odie
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:32 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:20 pm wrote: Also interestingly Italians (from what I've read) have a lower incidence, and they are one of the cultures who drink alot when young too. Nationality has alot to do with the way alcohol physiologically affects a person, and that is the answer I was looking for... I assumed it did the same to all of us.. Made us high, and euphoric before we numbed up.... I never really got hungover initially, probably one of the reasons I kept going... It took massive quantities for me to feel it afterwards... Had I gotten sick from it, I'd likely have never had serious probs later on... Yeah Isis, Alot of Cherokee friends of mine, and a few Norwegian and Swedish people I've known (Northern Europe, Scandinavia) really had substance probs...and here's what it seems now when I think about it..... You know how certain locations have less light ? IOW...Eskimoan, and Scandinavian people go sometimes 6 months with darker conditions around the arctic circle area ? Probably a correlation between SAD Syndrome, over time less light=less Dopamine in brain, Perhaps Vitamin B & D deficiency ??? and depression causes people to self medicate with substances that increase dopamine.... alcohol, carbs, sugars, even sex.... Steven, you're a genius! You're the funniest and most helpful person around this joint! Robin Williams, Eric Clapton, Ray Romano, John Lennon, Beaver Cleaver,Stephen Hawkins and Oprah all rolled up into one. Keep up the good work!!! :worship: :worship: :worship:
Good job!!!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:35 pm |
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Well not quite Beaver Cleaver, or Stephen Hawking....Hawking's IQ is a few decimal places to the right of mine... I can't tell you much about black hole theory, or theoretical physics QM, or relativity... Not smart enough to pass Cosmology either....
You want to buy a watch tho ?
Just come with your wallet, and prepare to look at lovely ocean front property I have for sale in Iowa.
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Odie
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:39 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:35 pm wrote: Well not quite Beaver Cleaver, or Stephen Hawking....Hawking's IQ is a few decimal places to the right of mine... I can't tell you much about black hole theory, or theoretical physics QM, or relativity... Not smart enough to pass Cosmology either....
You want to buy a watch tho ?
Just come with your wallet, and prepare to look at lovely ocean front property I have for sale in Iowa.
Cool, Mizz Attitude sold me some in Arizona earlier. I'm getting some good deals today!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:43 pm |
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Friends first ! We don't make alot off commission on folks like you Odie, so be happy you get such a deal !!!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:51 pm |
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Oh, I'm no Robin Williams either, He turned out to be a killer dramatic actor.... Oprah, I'm getting there, just a few more cheesecakes and a few million bucks short of a winfrey. CLapton, Nah, closest I'll ever get to him is his carribean detox center... John Lennon, Nah...I suspect he was a much more mellow person, and he played guitar and sang with a really good band too !
Ray Romano ? Well at least you didn't say Carrot Top, or Sam Kinniston...
Guiche Guy, or Stephen Wright would've been nice tho  , Even Father Guido Sarducci
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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".
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Odie
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:29 am |
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OK, So I exaggerated a bit on your characteristics! You still have a wide range of
influences, abilities and opinions. It's always good to hear what you have to say!
 :worship: :)
So if you want to argue with that, well maybe you're just a natural born arguer
that enjoys the sport! LOL LOL
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ShyGuy
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:41 am |
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Isis @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:16 pm wrote: Things have changed...And we as Americans are much more uptite about a lot of things that other countries and cultures are not.... :rotflmao: Now that is the biggest load of BS that I have ever heard! I am sorry Isis, but you are cleary living in a bubble. For the love of God, and I thought I heard it all :shock: Americans are probably the people with the lowest moral values of all nations.
I take your original statement as a personal insult.
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Odie
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:55 am |
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ShyGuy @ Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:41 am wrote: Isis @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:16 pm wrote: Things have changed...And we as Americans are much more uptite about a lot of things that other countries and cultures are not.... :rotflmao: Now that is the biggest load of BS that I have ever heard! I am sorry Isis, but you are cleary living in a bubble. For the love of God, and I thought I heard it all :shock: Americans are probably the people with the lowest moral values of all nations. I take your original statement as a personal insult. ShyGuy~
Please compare and contrast the moral values of the US compared to European nations and be as specific as you can.
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ShyGuy
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:29 am |
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pinkrose @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:04 pm wrote: Odie @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:59 pm wrote: pinkrose @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:50 pm wrote: Isis @ Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:41 pm wrote: I have heard, in many cultures, alchohol is an everyday way of life, just like our kids drinks Cokes. Like in Europe....Maybe some of our friends from different areas of the world would be willing to share with us.. Isis, I am not an "expert" on the laws and restrictions in Europe, but while traveling in Gremany, France and Italy, it was quite common to see children age approximately 11 or older drinking wine and beer with their families. In Germany there were 16 year olds served beer in the Biergarten. It might have something to do with culture, and alot of people utilize the transit system and use bikes and drive less often. That's true. Not positive, but I don't think most of the teens in Europe use alcohol in such an extreme way as over here. Since it's culturally allowed at that age, it's probably not as exciting. Apauling or bad judgement? Have you ever been outside? Have you seen how many here in the US are drunk drivers taking someone elses lives in their hands? Screwing around and spreading STD's? Abusing kids? Do you know how many people here are proudly displaying their criminal records here in the US? and you say it's apauling to have your kids at your table share a small glass of wine? Puhlease!
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TopherM
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:44 am |
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I was a foreign exchange student in France when I was 13 for about 4 months. My host family gave me a glass of wine with every meal, including breakfast!! That was just the norm...
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KJ, FL
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