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Good idea Lonman,  people can answer without getting into dissertations on the topic. (hopefully)  LOL ..  Yet I'm curious as to what people say here now that they've seen both sides of this.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Deleted duplicate post

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Cindy, I agree that very seldom do people in this type of forum understand how to give a critique, know what the term really means, or qualify to offer one. Unfortuneately the way things are setup in here, MANY here would be the reason the abominable singer would end up making a fool of him/herself in front of the Simon type OR any listening audience for that matter. There is no real analysis of anyones vocal performance offered, therefore those submitting under critique, that
know what a critique means are either brilliant vocalists and getting true feedback, in which some of them CAN handle criticism, OR, the other 90% is content being lied to, and continues to lie to themselves, by submitting in "C", while being told how good they sound, when in reality many are saying "they suck" behind their backs. YES this does happen. Although I realize you don't think anyone should be lied to, and most can't handle a critique at all in such a venue (let alone a publically displayed one), the word critique IMHO should be removed. Some of us CAN NOT hear ourselves accurately, CAN be helped by the more experienced singers in such a venue (all it takes is one or two that know their stuff to help). Additionally some of us would attempt to submit our attempts in Singer's Showcase if we didn't feel comment's in singers showcase were meant just to be kind, and say hello to friends. I do offer critiques when people want them, HOWEVER the critique is obviously of their recorded submitted work, and IN PRIVATE...My feelings are that the categories should be Just for fun with comments, or no comments...  If I person wants to be critiqued, than he should have to state that in the body of his description, and the critique can be posted in comments, or he can request private critique...Just having a "C" category like the current one, is totally absurd.. Why people actually post in "C" assuming they can't take the truth is quite babyish IMHO...The word critique has a definition, the definition doesn't mean "sweet comments and white lies only"..

Cindy,  It's the responsibility of the individual posting to know WHERE they are posting, and know just what CRITIQUE actually means..It seems so babyish to me to think a person would post in a category designated as "Critique", and than throw tantrums because "I didn't know what the word really meant"..I suppose we get into a discussion similar to "Is ignorance an appropriate excuse when a person screw's up".. It's assumed that the word CRITIQUE which DOES have a definition is understood by all old enough to post on these boards... If people can't handle constructive criticism they have NO RIGHT posting their work under a category
where they ask for critique..  If in doing-so, problems arise because people can't handle the truth, or would like to alter the definition of the term "critique", the word critique doesn't belong here,  too many are getting hurt with it.... Almost like the
knife laying around.... If people are too young to know how to use it, remove it !
Similarly the word "Lie" has a definition,  "White Lie" is still a lie. There ARE indeed a few that post under critique because they want constructive help, and CAN take the truth, (although we do know that the truth needn't be overt bashing, there are way's to present it), THOSE individual's that know what critique means, and would like to improve are being lied to, or perhaps lying to themselves...

The word "Critique" means a careful analysis, or a scrutiny of a persons work, NOWHERE within the definition of the word "Critique" will you find "White Lie"

Bottomline:  There is a Critique category in Singer's Showcase.  Critique's are currently discouraged in Singer's Showcase... Those of us that WOULD want honesty in order to improve WOULD lose out in the singer's showcase assuming we know what the word critique means, and post there for the reason of wanting people to tell us "what's wrong", while in fact knowing we might be a "4" rank, and aren't trying to "win" anything, with the exception of knowledge from those in the know,  that can help us to improve.
JMHO...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I guess I posted this in the wrong place.. so I've brought it over here.  This is the post that Steve is replying to.  Sorry for things being a bit outta sequence.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

AO...  This is cute Cindy !  For some reason I never noticed it earlier

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

i for 1 feel that,   ok maybe i don't feel that way...hmmmmmm, buttt,  who is REALLY trained to critigue?

and is there a critiguieing school a person can go to?  the public buys the music, THEY r the ones that in the end do the true critigueing,  can you sing?  sales will let you know that answer,

on here if all recorded there music for sale how many cd's would you buy?
if rateing r true everyone on here would be on  billboards top 10.

theres very few singers on here that i would buy there cd's, yet i would for sure buy a blend of songs form different singers on here,  i feel that some of the, i hate the word average but, average singers do pick just the right song and it fits there voice perfect, and just the right time to sing it, to where i would buy it...

being a pefect singer means nothing to me, i don't care if all notes r dead on, but i do care if that person was feeling the song, into the song, and if it touched me...thats why some give 8s and some give 10s on the same song....

does everything have to be perfect to rate a 10,  on here r in the real world? i think not....

if you ask me,

if you were putting enough emotion in the song.
were you on key thru the song.
were u singing lazy r did u have the right amount of energy for the song.
was ur phrasing right

all of these i can hear, yet how many of these really matter?   when listening to a singer i take an over all view, if it touched me i love it, if they were having fun with it, i love it, the rest doesn't really matter to me, as it should be i feel.

if i'm going to do a demo for a record comp. u can bet i won't be recording it on my home comp.  the risk is to great. yet on here its good enough, and thats how i sing on here, its more r less a 1 shot deal,  no doubt i can do better, but why? i'm not selling cd's on here, so i just sing and record for fun, no biggie,
 thats why if someone wants to critique me i really don't care, bash me? i don't care,  i know i'm not the best nor will i ever be, so i learned to live with that a long time ago...
 if i were to rate myself i would give me an 8, seems high but i sang to many years not to have learned something......i think...ok maybe not.....

speak up steven i just knowwwww ur dieing to say something...

Everything Is As It Should Be

I don't think ANYONE is trained or can be trained.  Everyone has different ears, hears different things.  Like American Idol, i've often heard the "pitchy" tones of some of the singers that Simon calls on, but then some of the people here claimed they thought the performance was awesome & didn't understand what he was talking about.  I know what I like to hear & what I don't - that's all I go by as what anyone should go by.  Some may like a performance while others hear completely different tones.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Yeah, from what I can hear you're about as close to a "10" as it gets.. I even wanted to buy one of your CD's... Who am I to disagree with your opinions on this ?



Anyway,  I'm listing a link to a site I found pretty interesting. Alot of what's offered is preceded with "I feel", or "It made ME feel", etc... Although critique's are usually opinion (subjective) at this level (of course I wouldn't argue with a Julliard prof. who claims a trained ear listen's for specific things, and the criteria isn't really all that subjective, if it were completely subjective, how could we coach and train in particular genre's?).

This link (although folks aren't pro's by any means), from what little I glanced over it, appear's to have people that aren't afraid to offer their feelings on other's work. They at least touch on critiques,  If they like someones song or lyrical content, they say why they like it.  My feelings are, that to have a critique category, and only say "Fabulous job-"  "10" isn't adequate even if a person means that, because the listener should at least offer "I thought this was excellent because", or attempt to substantiate what they felt was outstanding about the piece. Tell the person how it made you feel. "What makes it a 10 to you?" What is it about this "10" that differentiates the piece from an "8" in your opinion ?  It'd be nice to put A LITTLE effort into the Critique/Analysis. Sure it can be subjective, Doesn't have to be anything negative either, yet the listener should put a little effort into telling the person what they found outstanding, and should try to articulate abit.. That's the difference between just a passing comment, and the critique, or critique attempt...The "up-down-up" method works well.... Positives-area's that can improve-postive closing. Otherwise, it's just goofy to have a Category entitled "Critique"..assuming people don't even want to explain why they like the "10"..or even compliment specific areas and point those out.

Here's an example of people that try to offer abit of a "critique", and It's certainly doable IMHO

JMO

http://www.musesmuse.com/forums/index.php?showforum=31

check out some of the way's these songwriter's try to help other's....

Here's an example of something I liked reading.  Although by no means pro critiquing, it offer's something more from the listener..



I think it's pretty sad that we have a critique category here,  yet if I wish to mention to someone "I thought this was excellent, you might want to turn your reverberation setting down a tiny bit", in singer's showcase I don't feel that'd be acceptable to say. It really defeat's the purpose of having a "C" category..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

ooooh steven, that site looks neat......

that's what i'd like to get on my songs which is one reason i like for you to critique them....you bring out a lot of stuff that i do right along with suggestions on what you feel could be changed or any trouble spots i might have missed.....i think i may start putting 'please critique by pm' on some of my songs......i'm working on a cd now with some standards (i did tell you that didn't i?) and i could really use some feedback on it.....

Yeah Jeanne,  I think one of the issues a person brought up last year regarding an advantage to critiques being made public was that, "They can help other's as well", well maybe so assuming their WERE critiques at all ..Yet why can't a person that want's a critique just ask for one in private like you mention ?  It makes ALOT of sense..If they want one in public, they should post in "C" as they are now, and expect to get one.. The reason I gave that link is because I think that's an example of how critques CAN work well on the internet...Noone is slamming anyone, just exchanging opinions, and EVERYONE survives and is expected to reciprocate..Noone seems to think they are a God to music, or above being helped by other's sharing their interests.  They offer one-another strong point's and positives that they like as well as area's they felt were weaker...Might not be accurate, yet they are honest feeling's and are intended to help someone else who's attempting to songwrite. Personally, I'd think if you submit a song that takes ALOT of time and work, you want to know what other's think...Sure it hurt's to find out it need's improvement.. Yet assuming noone tells a person they need some work in certain area's the person keeps submitting the same sub-par material and people say to themselves, dang, they did that obnoxious thing like the last three songs yet again... I suppose it's totally up to the individual, but from a site like that, people can get an example of how critiquing can work, and see how other's survive certain criticisms...They help each other improve, that's the only objective, to share.... Sad it's gotten to the point people would rather just clam-up in here...Who get's helped musically assuming they genuinely want to grow ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yes Jeanne,  I know you are working on that.. I'll listen to your work in SS...and PM you regarding my feelings as I have in the past.  Billy of course can be really help you too...That's why I'm curious as to what his opinion is on various aspects

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The best critique is this...   We have jam sessions and record when you hear your vocal as the system hears it and after applying all the fx one learns what their weaknesses are and how to compensate.. And it doesnt take an expensive professional setup to do this. We record with 58s and a standard system. Since we sing for the pure pleasure of singing and not trying to be pros we relax and dont put much stock in what other people hear... Now if Martina mcBride listened to me sing and had a comment I would listen

You are right in many ways... with the exception of being "trained".  And even in that way, you are right to a degree.  A person can be TRAINED to hear specific kinds of vocal practices/maladies/abuses.  I for one (tho not at Julliard), am trained to recognize proper use of vocal skills (9 yrs of training, 25 years of practice as a communication disorders specialist) .. i.e., breathing techniques, phrasing, vibrato, resonance.. etc. and to a degree, I also have some experience in analyzing vocal "performance".  Does that mean that I can pick a "winner" every time... NOPE.  Not even 1/2 the time.  Probably not even 1/4 of the time.  Why??? Because, you and Billy and Steven... and I think most that have posted ... have pointed out very well that it is more than just the "voice" that "reaches" a listener.  We can all turn on the radio ... and hear someone that makes us  scratch our heads... and say, "HUH?????  How'd THEY get this far?"  I guess people like Simon... and the like ... have a better handle on what the general public wanna hear (though even they offer mostly subjective analysis).  Yet, over in the Singer's Showcase, I have listened to the likes of Jason K, Jazzy, Billy, Gilly, Luly ... and a few others and wondered why the heck (assuming they wanna "make" it) that someone hasn't grabbed at the chance to work with them.  But as pointed out ..... there are way too many variables that are personal to the listener .... and a variety of other "factors" that go into the decisions the "big boys" make ... regarding who they are gonna "promote".  Unfortunately, as we are all too aware.. its definately not "raw talent" that is making it in today's music market.  

And... I think its fine to HONESTLY offer WHATEVER *you* the listener, feel about a song and a performance.... and do so with some degree of critical analysis... if that is what is requested.  I just feel that, as Jeanne suggested, people should request it in the form of email or PM's.  Why???  Easier to give, easier to receive.  

Steven, I agree that it is sad that with a "scale" and a "critque" option on the site... it can't be used more constructively and effectively.... and that people wouldn't feel so wounded or embarrassed when someone points out a flaw.. but history has shown (think back to when you joined and the hullabaloo that was happening then) .... that it just doesn't work in a public forum such as this.  And yea... the link you posted does seem to have a certain degree of "critqueing" going on... but I'll bet many have felt wounded or embarrassed.  I may be wrong.  

And I'm with you, Billy... although I AM quite comfortable with the word "average" ... that I don't care if EVERYONE likes what I've posted.... I only post the ones that I feel "satisfied" with.... and for me... that means... I held the tune, the song was basically in my range ... I enjoyed singing it... and the performance had some energy and/or emotion behind it.  For ME... that is what I strive for.  My "hubby" mixes for me... so I leave that stuff up to him.  But again, for me... I am here for fun and friendship, more than anything else.  

Hope everyone has a great Superbowl Sunday!  Hugz.... CCindy  :hug:

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

I agree CCindy.


What exist's in SS currently is what the members seem to want. We can discuss the issue, yet it's evident that the participant's would rather not have actual critiquing in there, and would rather keep things as friendly exchanges or "comments".  Whatever works for the members I suppose.  The site's the way they want it to be. Those that want feedback I suppose will ask for it.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

i'm wondering if we could attempt a special thread for critique in the forum....say if you gave me a critique there could be others that could learn something from it also....i'm game.....i thinkkkkkkk......you could be gentle at first couldn't you?    maybe critique 'heaven' first since you found a lot more right about it than not....  ;)

i liked the dialogue we had back and forth about mine and billy's duet....it would be nice to get different thoughts from you, cc, don weiss, jazzy or whoever else would be willing to give some constructive critique and i think there may be others in the singers showcase who would welcome it.....

any thots anyone?  i'll go first so you'll have an idea what you're in for.....i ain't sceered.......well maybe a little, but just remember my honey will kick your arse if you're toooooo mean.....

 :shock:  :shock:


SOOOOOO stealin' that smilie up there, Jeanne!!  :worship:

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That is so funny you ask this question, because I was goanna ask the same question. I am new to the sight and I posted a couple of songs. I noticed that when I was listening to other peoples songs and reading there comments it was nothing but positive. Not to be mean or anything, but I heard a couple people who did not sound all that great, a matter fact I heard alot of people that could use a little work. Hell I posted my song thinking it needed alot of work and I thought it sounded horrible and people still comment that it was great. Now I know that not everything I sing is great, or even good for that matter, so I would appreciate it if people would be honest and give there true opinion. I don't agree with the no comment thing, because here's the thing with no commenting, whats the point of putting your songs on here. You want people to hear them and yet you cant take what they give you. Well in any case why be hurt or get angry at an honest comment, you posted your song, you take that chance.
I came to this web site and joined in the hopes of getting constructive critisicsm on my music, and all I get is very nice job no matter what.
I think that honesty is best.

Jeanne,  That was actually what I was trying to get at.... I was hoping thru the examples of how other venues critique, and possibly a few here ONLY critiquing those (lightly) that mutually consent to it, people would realize that those who want help, can get constructive feedback WITHOUT feeling's being hurt.. A critique can be as mild as "Sounds good but I'm wondering if the level of reverberation might be detracting somewhat from your natural vocal timbre, and affecting the presence and warmth of your voice"...or just substantiating WHY I like something. like the critique I gave on "heaven".  There was nothing negative what-so-ever.  I was just explaining why I'd have given it a 10....It can be a positive experience. Heck, I've given critique's and the person's said, "I thought of what you mentioned, but I like it more this way"..,  that's fine too...It's not about ego, one-upsmanship, or anything of that sort,  it's just that if a person DOES want constructive help, it's ashame that a mild constructive comment would be thought of by others to be so blasphemous in Singer's Showcase...For some it's just to be fun karaoke, yet some other's are musicians, and might want to go out and perform live, perhaps sing as a career. Jeanne in most cases, ANYTHING said in the room is very tame anyway, anything that's involved would always be Emailed or PM"d privately anyway....

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Hi Jeanne...

If you wanna start a "special critiques" thread... and people can specially ask for details about what they both like and dislike about a song... I would be very happy to participate.  I'll be kind of course... 'cause I don't wanna get my arse kicked.. hehehe!!  

No ... but seriously..... IF you want something like that done in a thread ... publically... and you want MY opinion... I'll be happy to give it.  Or... if ya wanna ... just PM me.. and I'll be happy to offer some comments that way too.  But.. where the song actually is... I'll just stick to the "for fun" format of ... "was here.. enjoyed, thanks for the share."  However, in your case... I would also say I love your voice.. 'cause I do!  

But, sure... if you wanna do it over here... go for it.  As long as there are no hard feelings... and I mean NONE ... then it could  be a totally beneficial thing for a lot of folks.... and I'll participate.    

If I see it going sour... though... I probably will stop.  :argue:

Man... Im rambling again... waaaaay too much coffee today....  :fright:

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

i'd listen to ANYTHING Martina McBride had to tell me, even if it was "Get the hell outta my dressing room you freak!"  which incidentally, i did not know it was her dressing room.  i mistook it for the coat closet and i was looking for my jacket.  the police didn't buy it either, but my lawyer says i should stick with that story.  oops.  i may have said too much.  just forget that last sentence.......

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All work and no play make Homer something something