Karaoke Forums

Hello all, I'm new, I have very little clue what I'm doing so please help me out. Alright, I run a small setup for a small church group in a 15'x25' room(limited space). I went and bought this setup not knowing anything so don't  LOL , I've been researching a little on here.

I have an Optimus 60w all-in-one karaoke player http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/uc/rsk/Support/ProductManuals/3201166_PM_EN.pdf   I bought in 2000 from yes, Radioshack. We play cdrw and record  audio cassettes on it.

I have an Audio Technica 2000 wireless mic system that I run into the mic jack.

I have an Optimus  150-Watt 2-Way PA Monitor Speaker [/url]http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?cp=&productId=2103338&tab=techSpecs[url]


It has been working fine as far as sound, with the karaoke pushing the speaker(hooked up by karaoke audio out jacks) . I just need a new karaoke player that can replace the old one. I bought a 40w Voco Duet 2 but it only whispered through the speaker, I sent it back. Glad I did after reading what you guys wrote.

I am currently looking at the75w Cavs Dvd-303g[/url]http://www.cavsusa.com/SuperCDG/dvd-303g.html[url]

and the 60w Felco Dvd 20k Karaoke system.

Will either one of these players push that speaker like the old one? What are some of the best ones out there for all-in-one systems?  Thank you very much.[/url]

I don't think that you'll be able to hook up any player THRU that speaker... it's an all-in-one unit.

My recommendation is to get another all in one!

Or buy decent player, amp, and speakers... but we're talkin' major dollars compared to what you did...

If he has that speaker all he needs is a second oneof those, an amp/mixer and a player.  or as you suggest another all-in-one.

what he has is a pa speaker. optimus's pa speaker I believe is good enough for home. Wouldn't use it for pro use though.

I would suggest looking at musician's friend for an amp and player as they usually have good deals for that. on the speaker if he can't get another one then he should look at the packages that musician's friend has.

I have a 15" speaker and an all-in-one unit, I use the all-in-one as one speaker and player. Then use  the audio out connecters of the all-in-one to the audio in jack of another  seperate speaker on the other side of the room. I need a new all-in-one unit that will push sound through the seperate speaker like the all in one unit I have now. I'm getting rid of the all-in-one I have now.  The only thing is the 40watt Voco duet2 wouldn't  do that, just wanted to know what you thought would. I have to keep it under $800 and compact with the limited space. Thank you for the reply.

Must have typing at the same time, thanks.

...some of the peeps on here never answer the question!!

Strider: In the set-up that you have, the entire all-in-one system is serving as just the karaoke player, nothing more. The amp is contained in your powered PA speaker. So the karaoke player is not "pushing" the speaker, the speaker is pushing itself!! Any volume difference between the old all-in-one system you used as the player and any new player you may buy should have little to nothing to do with the player.

No matter which player you get, you are still left with the 150 Watt amp inside your speaker pushing the speaker, so the obtainable "quality" of the sound coming out of it is the same no matter which player you use.

Now it may have been that your all-in-one system had some built in effects or possibly an equalizer or other mixing options that allowed you to shape the input sound a bit more than the other player you tried. In this case, the "quality" of the input from the player to the speaker was not exactly "better," but you just had it set more to your liking. Also, there was a volume knob on the all-in-one player which served as a gain knob above the settings on the speakers, which may have been a factor. If barely a whisper came out of the other player when you hooked it up, it was more likely a problem with the speaker settings and not the player itself, as it is just spitting out the same raw analog output that your old player would spit out without any equalization, gain, or effects.

SO my suggestion (it sounds like you want to stay on the inexpensive side) would be to probably find a player with some external effects or some equalization (either an actual 5-band equalizer or some digital effects like spacialization, which is just a pre-set EQ boost). On the speaker end, there should be a TONE and GAIN (maybe labeled volume) knobs on your actual speaker. If you find that the new player is whispering again, try boosting both of the knobs on the speaker to get the sound you want. This should get any new player you buy sounding like the old one. Check out the RSQ brand (an offshoot of JVC) for some good values in a good, professional player.

If, however, you want to actually IMPROVE your sound, you have going to have to look into getting a new powered speaker with a larger amp (more wattage).

Hope that helps alot more than the typical "Buy an whole new PA system" responce everyone seems to always give!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Oh, and another option after reading your most recent post would be to just get another 150 watt powered speaker for the other side of your hall and just use your old all-in-one unit as just the player.

Think of it this way, you have 150 watts of power coming out of one side, why would you want 40 watts coming out of the other side?? Spring for the extra speaker and you'll have identical output from both sides!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

....I've totally solved your problem for way under $150.

#1: Go buy another of the 150 watt powered speakers that you already have. I don't know the brand, but this should run you in the $150-300 range.

#2: Go buy a Behringer Eurorack UB802 Mixer ($49.99 at Musician's Friend).

That is all you need to buy.

To hook up, put your speakers on either side of your auditorium. Run speaker cables from the speakers to the main speaker inputs of the mixer (which you can place whereever is most convenient. Run RCA wires from the output of your existing all-in-one player (or any player if you want to buy a new one) to the input jacks on ONE OF the separate channels of your mixer.

You now control the volume of the entire setup via the volume knob on the channel of the mixer where you hooked it up (make sure you have the MAIN volume of the mixer at a suitable level.) There is now also a 3 band EQ on the music coming out of the player.

Hook your Mics up the the Mic inputs of the mixer and you can control their volume independently with the other channels, including EQing them separately as well.

That is about a $200-250 way to REALLY upgrade your sound, have more flexibility to mix your overall sound, and be set up to further upgrade your components in the future if you want to.

That should REALLY do everything you want to accomplish.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Just a note to say that the Behringer Eurorack UB802 Mixer does not have onboard effect for the vocal.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Thank you for the help. My speaker dosen't have any adjustments. It says pa speaker but it's not self powered, it needs something to power it. I got to looking a little closer at my Karaoke machine and the wire that runs in between the machine and 15' speaker, is pluged into not the audio outs on the machine but rather a single hole that says "Ext.4-8 ohm speaker right channel" have no idea what that means. I pluged it into the audio outs and only a whisper came through like the Voco Duet2, pluged it back into the one hole I said and it worked fine.  Also says it has an 8 watt amp in it, so maybe that's the difference. I don't get it. Thinking I might have to get another player and a amp. Thank you for all your input.

That is amazing that you are running a 150 watt speaker off of an 8 watt amp and getting anything. Even if you are getting some sound out of the speaker, it is grossly underpowered and you are probably damaging the speaker.

Just as a reference, most of the KJs on this board run at least about a 500 watt amp and 500 watt RMS speakers even in small bars.

I think the way to go for you in this case may actually be a portable PA like this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=l ... id/480634/

Everything you need is right there for $500. Just plug your existing all-in-one system into one of the channels to use as the player and you're ready to go. Make sure you use the RCA audio outs of your player, and not the speaker output.

That should provide all the power you need!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Wait a minute here! Yes, grossly underpowered, but probably damaging the speaker? Come on now, that is not possible.

WANNA BET............... I have ruined many speakers before I found out. [glow=red]NEVER[/glow] drive a speaker to distortion using a small amp on a high rated speaker. You are always better off running 1000 watts on a 500 watt speaker rather than vice-versa.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

It's true an underpowered amp won't blow a speaker, however a small amp will tend to be pushed to higher gain levels & go into clipping faster & the distortion CAN blow the speaker.  A 10 watt amp can kill a 1000 watt speaker - distortion is distortion no matter what wattages & distortion WILL kill a speaker.

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A underpowered amp cannot drive the speaker to distort. The speaker coil does only what the amp tells it to do. What happens is that the amp starts clipping, thus sending a DC voltage to the speaker and THAT is what damages the speaker coils.

I said that!  Clipping is distortion.

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Relax Lonman, we posted at the same time. When I replied to Dr. D your answer wasn't there and vice versa. Look at the time stamping.

Yep.  

Here is a good article explaining.  Gets a little on the technical side, but anyone should be able to get the gist.

It’s a common occurrence, unfortunately: high-frequency components of loudspeaker systems damaged because they’re being fed by power amplifiers rated at lower (rather than higher) power output than recommended.

Understandably, this can be a bit difficult to understand. Let’s look at how it happens and then present some preventative solutions.

Too Little, Too Much
Not all musical notes are created equal. There is much more power in the lower registers of music than in the midrange and treble regions. If we examine the accompanying graph, we can see that the energy content of treble frequencies is typically 10 to 20 dB less than bass and midrange frequencies.

Therefore, even if we allow for 10-dB peaks in high frequency program material, which is common, the high frequency driver of a system will be called upon to handle only about one-tenth the power that the low and mid frequency components must sustain.

This natural distribution of musical energy works to our advantage. It means, for example, that a loudspeaker system capable of handling 100 watts should have a high frequency unit capable of handling 10 watts. Thus, if the high frequency unit is designed to handle 20 watts of power (characteristic of many JBL systems), we are building a 100-percent safety factor into the high frequency unit.

The result is that the capabilities of the components of a loudspeaker system parallel the natural energy distribution of music.




The Nature Of Amplifier Power
The power output specification of an amplifier is not absolute. Under certain operating conditions, such as when the volume control is set too high or when the input signal is too great, the amplifier can exceed its published output. The power output of an amplifier is rated with reference to a given level of total harmonic distortion (THD).

If required to produce more power, the amplifier will do so, but at considerably greater distortion levels. For example, an amplifier rated at 10 watts (20 to 20,000 Hz into an B-ohm load) at no more than 0.5 percent THD could be overdriven to produce 20 watts of output power to the loudspeakers.

Under these same adverse conditions, an amplifier rated at 20 watts could deliver 40 watts to the loudspeakers; a 35-watt amplifier could deliver 70 watts and a 50 watt amplifier could be overdriven to deliver 100 watts. This distorted output could very well be in the treble region, as we shall soon see.

Here’s The Killer
The additional power generated by overdriving the amplifier is rich in harmonics (distortion). These harmonics can be particularly dangerous to high frequency drivers. Harmonics are higher frequency multiples of the original signal; therefore, the high frequency component of a loudspeaker system must bear the brunt of the distortion-even though the original signal may have been generated by a bass guitar.

What It Looks Like On A ‘Scope
When a sine wave test signal (a signal consisting of a fundamental frequency without overtones or harmonics) is displayed on the screen of an oscilloscope, its top and bottom extremes will exhibit normally rounded contours.

Average output power is one-half the peak output power. When an amplifier is overdriven, the contours are ”clipped” off, producing a near square wave, having flat areas at the top and bottom limits, in which the average power approaches the peak power. When this occurs, up to twice the amplifier’s rated output can be delivered to the high frequency driver, which may not be capable of handling the abnormal load.

A higher powered amplifier, however, can generate the required power levels without clipping, allowing the loudspeaker system to receive program material containing a normal distribution of energy levels. Under these conditions, damage to the high frequency driver is most unlikely.


There are no hard and fast rules. Very few amplifiers have meters that are capable of accurately indicating when an amplifier is being overdriven to the point that it could damage loudspeakers. Even the volume control position is not a clue- half rotation often produces considerably more or less than 50% of an amplifier’s power. There are no absolutes. We wish there were.


A Few Guidelines:
1. Purchase an amplifier that will provide more power than you will need. Remember, a loudspeaker can require up to ten times the average power level for those instantaneous bursts of sonic power known as transients. If the amplifier has enough reserve power, transients will be clear and crisp. If not, the transients will be muddy or dull. When an amplifier runs out of undistorted power, it is forced to exceed its design capabilities, producing dangerous power levels rich in high frequency distortion.

2 Do not drive the amplifier into clippinig. Clipping sounds something like a stylus mistracking. and generally occurs on loud passages when the system is played at loud volume levels. If clipping occurs regularly, turn down the volume level or install a larger amplifier that can deliver the required power without distortion.

3. Do not make or break connections to the amplifier while it is operating. Unplugging or inserting connectors into an amplifier, preamplifier or receiver while it is operating can produce momentary loud buzzes. Often, these buzzes occur at high power and can destroy loudspeaker voice coils very quickly.

4. Practice audio precaution. If your tape deck does not have tape lifters, it can produce squeals when in the fast-wind mode (either forward or backward) that can destroy high frequency drivers. Turning the volume down when fast-winding IS a simple remedy. Also, turning down the volume whenever handling the phonograph tone arm is prudent.

If a phonograph pickup is accidentally dropped on a record when the volume is turned up. The resulting thump could destroy the loudspeaker. Do not play the system loudly with excessive bass boost, which can easily cause the amplifier to be overdriven. Remember, a 3-dB increase in volume is just noticeable to the ear, but requires double the amplifier power, and many tone controls are capable of providing boost of 15 dB.

Remember, if a small amplifier must be overdriven to obtain the desired volume levels in a listening room, thus generating high power and distortion levels, the user is advised to purchase a larger amplifier capable of producing the required power with negligible distortion.

In any case, an amplifier should be selected with an output power rating that is greater than the maximum power that will be used This margin of reserve power will ensure that the amplifier will not attempt to deliver more power than its design allows. The net result will be distortion-free sound reproduction and virtually unlimited loudspeaker life.

Borrowed from http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/jbl/lowpower.php  

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15x25 is hardly bigger than a living room... I rent out and setup systems in living rooms larger than that.. I would probably set my Jbl eon10 g2 at the other end and call it good..

 There are some things to remember A speaker placed within 1 foot from a wall can put out up to twice the power (all sound in one direction) A speaker hung in the upper corner can put out 3 times the power..(spls if you will)

 In that situation I would hang 25-50 watt speakers in the corners at the other end of the room (next to the ceiling) that the singers are You might need to hang soft material on the wall behind them to eliminate feedback.With these speakers you need a 50-100 watt amp...

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That's a good article Lonman,  I was over at Rane, reading about power amp clipping, and how/why it effects speakers. This article get's into it too. I don't follow things such as harmonic distortion and massive wave clipping or aspect's of audio physics.. So I'm trying to figure this stuff out..

http://www.rane.com/note128.html

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