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I've been lookint at a powered mixer to purchase as a backup and to use on small GIGS etc.  Besides the quality issues of the MFG ( Behringer versus Yamaha)

How big of a differance really is
300 watts mono x 2 @4ohms
400 watts stereo x 2 @ 4ohms

The stereo versus mono doesn't bother me but I'm looking for a cleaner more powerful unit.  Obvioulsy the Behringer rated at 400watts would seem a better choice but the Yamaha has a better reputation and is $50 cheaper  ( but only rated at 300watts x 2 ) --   Would the lower power rating be THAT big of a deal ???

1.1 db  you wouldnt notice much difference esp with the bass  I vote Yamaha......

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Typically more wattage will actually make the most differance in your headroom, i.e. lower, clearer lows and higher, crisper highs.

My last amp upgrade was from 400 watts per channel to 500 watts per channel through the same speakers, and the biggest difference I noticed were more defined bass and the highs that reached all the way to the back fo the bar with more clarity at less volumes. That's the difference you are going to notice!!

As for moving from 300 watts of Yamaha power to 400 watts of Beringer power, there is no telling how much difference the quality issue will make in the upgrade, but the above is what is SUPPOSED to happen, all things being equal!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

400 watts beringer = 300 watts Yamaha = 200 watts JBL

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Well I was just informed by MUsicians Friend that the Yamaha I was looking at
is out of stock and discontinued --  :(  :(

It was replaced by a nice unit costing $200 MORE !!!  :(  :(

Looks like the Behringer for now.....

I have hard earned experience with powered mixers.

My last 300 watt powered mixer cost me both crossovers in my EV-152 mains...and it was a "quality" mixer.

What I learned was:

Do not attempt to feed hungry mains with full range freqs off a low watt powered mixer at decently high SPL's....Attenuate the lows as much as possible to preserve amp headroom for the highs....In my case, the crossovers blew before the horns.

...And nope, there was no indication the mixer amp was clipping even tho it had clip leds set at 6 Db under clip....6 Db is a LOT of warning.

My advise to you is to really examine the specs and how they are expressed when shopping powered mixers....For some reason, only powered mixer makers still sometimes lie when it comes to power ratings, whereas most pro audio component amp makers use industry standard specs that allow you to accurately compare specs.

In the case of the two mixers you offered, I saw right away that they expressed their power @ 4 Ohms....That means both mixers are much weaker than their component counterparts who state their power ratings at both 8 Ohms and 4 Ohms.

And you should also remember that amp power is frequency and Ohm dependant....That the amp maker should express his power ratings when compared to a particular freq....Where the lower the freq, the lower the impedence, and the more power required to reproduce that freq.

So if a amp maker proudly states that his mixer amp can produce 300 watts X 2 @ 4 Ohms @ 10K Hz, then he ain't got much power to brag about....So they instead fail to state at what freq they got those fat specs-they leave out the 10K Hz part....But if he says his amp can produce 300 watts X 2 @ 4 Ohms @ 40Hz, then he has a fat amp with lots of real power.

You will notice that amp makers who produce truely powerful amps will always honestly state the freq and Oms spec....The guys with things to hide will neglect to state the freqs, and IF they do it will usually be in the K range.

They lie by omission....So beware.

ouch...now my head hurts! [schild=5 fontcolor=8B0000 shadowcolor=FF0000 shieldshadow=1]headache[/schild]

ouch...now my head hurts! [schild=5 fontcolor=8B0000 shadowcolor=FF0000 shieldshadow=1]headache[/schild]

ouch...now my head hurts! [schild=5 fontcolor=8B0000 shadowcolor=FF0000 shieldshadow=1]headache[/schild]

mine does too after three posts like that! !

Stop making me repeat myself!

Good Post Keith01    Good read

Yerwelcome Mr October,

I attempted to bow, but I banged my head.

Well 300 or even 400 watts at 4 ohms is not much.

Considering most speakers are 8 ohms.

My QSC PLX3402's are 1100 watts at 4 Ohms.

Jam,

   Have you checked any of the other suppliers of musical gear ?   American Musical Supply, or Sam Ash, Guitar Center, etc ? I get just about ALL the companies catalogs, however even w/o being on their mail order list, these conpanies all have internet sites, and MANY of the larger mail order suppliers these days price match, offer very reasonable S&H rates, and carry comparable items. I've found that often a competitor will have an item that the huge businesses such as MF recently ran out of... Hit or miss, but if you like that Yamaha, try a few other sources. If Ash has it, they are likely shipping that type item free now (up until christmas)

I would never buy a power amp at that price, better off buying powered speakers instead!  Those low end amps have no damping and no energy, all they have is 300 or 400 watts on paper and at 4 ohms on top of that! The Behringer will turn out to be a 150 w at 8 ohms with no guts and distortion that will prpbably burn your speakers.

You got to do things right, you buy a good pair or Mackie, JBL, Yorkville or perhaps the new Behringer???

Watt ohms are you speakers?  If they are 8 ohms, the 4 ohm rating don't mean squat.

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Typically, a system set up to deliver adequate power at 8 Ohms stereo sounds better and is to easier control and is more reliable than one operating a 4 Ohms or less.

You need to remember that the Ohm rating is "nominal" and frequency dependant. The lower the note reproduced, the lower the Ohms load, then the more drain on the amp....So even 8 Ohm systems place a 4-5 Ohm load on the amp when playing bass notes.

That's why you need to trim or cut bass notes from your mains whenever you need max SPL's from them without clipping their amp and starving the horns. Horns are always rated at "peak" watts demand and if the amp is depleated from playing unnecessarily low bass notes, then the horns will often be damaged.

If you are running your tops in full range via their built in passive crossovers, then it is especially dangerous to hit them with deep bass notes from a too small amp. The builtin passive crossovers absorb amp power unlike an external active crossover. The power they absorb gets converted to heat...As soon as you start to clip the amp that heat exceeds the melt down point.

4 Ohm systems are best limited to your subwoofers. Many folks run two 8 Ohm subs off one bridged amp in mono, which is fine providing the amp really can operate reliably down there and has the guts to keep it up all night. Bass freqs are the narrowest band, but the most expensive to produce at high SPL's. It takes lots of amp and large heavy speakers to do it right.

I have never seen the benifit of bass notes any where near 40 Hz or below. The male chest cavity resonates around 65Hz, so the subs need be able to reproduce best in that area and above. I always cut 40 Hz and below at the EQ so no where does my system see unnecessary bass notes below 40 Hz.  

You also need to remember that there are amps all thru your signal chain starting at the mic input on the board and ending at the power amp. So if it makes sense to cut low freqs to conserve headroom at the power amp, then it also applies at any amp stage....

Lon,
Speakers:  I have 3 sets that I use on differant occasions all rated at 8ohms.
2 - Peavey Sp5g's
2- Yamahas SV15IV
2- Peavey PR12 - Lite weights

So in regards to the powered mixers - I'm estimating that they would run
closer to 200watts at 8ohms and 150watts. - Maybe not enough oomph for the speakers?

You are pretty close on the power ratings & very correct about the oomph part.  All those speakers handle approx 300 watts continous (not the PR series) which means you want at least 300 (ok) - 600 (best) watts going to them.  The lower power n these powered boards are going to create distortion if you need to jack the volume up & won't sound very full, meaning you'll need to adjust the eq more to get the sound you want, adding to more possibility of speaker damage (over eq'ing).

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