Karaoke Forums

Around here there are several singers that "make the rounds" of the bars where they know they can get placed in rotation immediately.  They'll sing their song and leave for the next place; in that case the bribe/tip method would pay off for the KJ.

Susie

_________________
You do it in the shower,
you do it in the car,
Ccome do it with us,
and be a star!!!!

Karaoke with Full House Entertainment

[scroll]Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean...... [/scroll]

toqer,

If you acecpt money to bump some one up the line, will you push (Bob) someone down the line if (James)a customer give you good money? And with even more money will you banned (James)him from singing that night?

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

And that ones that weren't vocal may not have come back because of it either.

I'm not going to take a ridiculous challenge.  Running a rotation via "the web" is no way to run it either & I don't have the money or time to come to YOUR show just to have YOUR crowd expect to be able to buy their way into a rotation.  The ONLY way it would work is in neutral territory with a crowd that doesn't know what is going on.

_________________
[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Good question and i'll answer it.

AKDJ automatically calculates when you are sold out.  Once we've gotten enough in our playlist where running the playlist is going to hit our "Sold out" time, we'll stop taking new requests period (unless a $100 bill comes along, then I forward issues like that to my manager since I can't make the decision to run the show past what  time i'm told to stop)

We allow customers to turn in as many songs as they want as well.  The only thing limiting them is how much they want to spend in $1 request slips. I know a lot of KJ's cringe at the thought of charging folks a $1 to sing, but it also gives them both a financial and a rotational advantage when dealing with singers.

As far as Bob and Fred getting into a bidding war, I simply say "Bob bribed me $20, I already told him he's next, you can go after him"

Going back to the rotational advantage though.  I'm going to use a shorter, 3 person rotation this time.

Bob turns in 3 tickets, mary turns in 3 tickets, james turns in 6 tickets.  This is how AKDJ lays out the rotation.

Bob
Mary
James
Bob
Mary
James
Bob
Mary
James
James
James
James
James

James will quickly learn the lesson after a few times hanging out that overbooking means he's going to be stuck singing 2-3 times in a row at the end of the night.   To save embarassment, most customers start paying careful attentention to the playlist so they don't end up looking as stupid as lonely old james singing the last 6 songs of the night.

We never pull singers out, for any amount of money.  That's a complete denial of service unforgivable by any KJ.

And i'm still ROFFLING that the others don't even have the guts to take me up on my challenge.  We're talking about rotation practices here, and what i'm offering is enough to give you control over the rotation at the 7 Bamboo.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

I wanted to toss a few pictures in here.



and



(You'll notice I put everyone I like on top on purpose with decent songs, and everyone I am started to dislike at the bottom with cruddy songs)

The top picture is our playlist box.  This was an old p-120 laptop I purchased for $30 bucks.  We added a wifi card for $7, dehinged it, and built a sturdy wooden box with a plexiglass front so we could hang it on the wall near the bar.

The bottom picture is what our customers see on the playlist screen.  It is the HTML playlist output that AKDJ spits out.
Not pictured is the rules and conditions we have taped to the playlist box.

Whenever a customer asks me "When am I coming up?"  "Did you remember to put such n such song in?"  I tell them to take a hike to the playlist screen.  

Once the rotation and playlist is something out in the open like that, customers start really start studying it.  They'll still ask questions like "Why is so and so here and i'm here?"  The questions become more about rotation logic than anything else, and a brief explanation sets them straight.

One of the more interesting columns in the playlist page is the "round" page.  If a RN value is replaced with an OR, this means I overided something.  AKDJ reports to my customers when this has happened.
It also makes them responsible for their own behavior.  Like I said in the above post, james is mocked by his peers for being a greedy stage hog because his actions are in plain view for everyone to see.

You pit them against each other, not you.  Heck, you're just there to eek out an existance and make sure it all runs right.  Once singers have a full working knowledge of the system they'll be way more comfortable with it than a KJ with a wheel, a KJ doing it all by memory, voodoo etc.  I've had countless customers come back because here, they know when they're coming up.  They know when they walk in how much room is left if they want to sing (or if we're sold out)  And like I said wayyyy earlier in this thread, once we have the frontend finished, even bribes and other bad behavior will be in the complete hands and dollars of the singers.

If you have a ethical problem with it, just automate it, blame the friggen machine, that's our motto and our goal.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

I love this forum.

I should point out the whole reason AKDJ came to be was because we saw a lot wrong with the karaoke scene in general.  

There are software companies using other peoples free software, bundling it with theirs and charging for the entire package like it was their own.

Karaoke companies are not in agreement about the legalities of PC based system.

Songbook creation software companies... eww god they tick me off.

KJ's are not consistant in rotation or how they run shows

List goes on and on..

We wanted to create something that would be benificial to KJ's, singers, and karaoke companies.  We talked to several other plugin authors, and promised we wouldn't charge for it, and when the day comes we added an itunes type component to it, all the folks involved in it's creation would get an equal share of the %7 sales comission we're pitching to folks.

Who exactly is involved in it?

ZugZug, He's a badass programmer.  He works for a really big company that makes stuff for the computer.  If you have a PC, chances are you've bought something from his company. He's also a regular at the 7 Bamboo, and worked diligently with me and the singers to create the rules/conditions that keep our rotation so tight amd fair.  He's working under an assumed name because he doesn't want his bosses to find out about his side project.

Yannick Hannault,  Creator of the fastest, best CDG renderer for winamp gen_cdg.  After seeing several folks packaging his plugin with their softwares and charging for it, he was pissed.  We're the only karaoke software out there allowed to package his plugin with our installer, because he's seen our evil plans and loves them.

Olli Patervini (spelled wrong) Olli recently stepped up to the plate, and has given us permission to include the pacemaker DSP plugin with our installer.  

Darren Owen, aka Dro.  Good buddy and karaoke fan from the UK.  He's written several key plugins and is collaberating with zugzug on in_zip.  He is our #1 source of "How to do it right in winamp" whenever we have questions.

Then there's me, the crazy co-ordinator and cheerleader of this effort.  

Our effort to re-invent the karaoke wheel goes way deeper than just running shows differently or writing a new karaoke hosting software.  I can't speak for Olli, Dro, and Yannick on these issues, but zug and I have seen enough of the karaoke software scene to know that just about everything out there is complete cobbled together overpriced crap based on other peoples work.

Which is why it's free.  Hey, I know how broke all you KJ's are right now.  It's not fun.  We're hoping you start using the system and help us build it better with your suggestions.  

Other things we are doing to reinvent karaoke is the creation of several technical standards.  For instance we're giving karaoke companies free PHP scripts so they can participate in our ok_ml (online karaoke media library)  all based on paypal authentication for the downloads.

Another thing we're working on (mostly dro) is id3 type capabilities on mp3+g zipped through the zip comment field. No more having to make sure your files are exactly named correctly, etc.

And just today I got in touch with CCCP about hosting a free karaoke database.  They're for it, construction begins next week.  We're putting all the songbook software companies out of business.  No more paying for information that you should be able to get for free anyways. I'm going to enhance it with copyright holder information so we can all switch from blanket licenses to accounted licenses.  Blanket may be easier, but accounting for which songs you played and paying the $0.07 per or whatever it is, is way cheaper.

I've put about all the effort I can into this.  If you love me, hate me, think i'm a sleaze or a saint beyond that you all should be compelled to help us fix this stuff that's wrong with karaoke. Hell, you're not just helping us, you're helping yourself as well. Quoting Quincy Jones when he produced We are the world back in the 80's, he turned to all the performers and told them "Leave your egos at the door"  

Reinventing means we need to put our personal petty differences aside and actually work towards achieving some of these goals.  I don't care if you stomp kittens in satanic worship while sodomizing yourself with a crucifix playing beatle records backwards to draw a crowd.  There are bigger issues than that in the karaoke world right now, but everyone seems so focused on "Look at me and my show, I know i'm right."  It's all BS. You're all full of it for chastising me and sending me PM's that i'm not an ethical KJ (per the rules of this forum I will not reveal who's been harassing me nor quote the PM's)

Grow up. Take a look around you.  We all know what's wrong with karaoke.  While movies have gone digital, music has gone digital, and everything else in between karaoke is being held back because CDG producers and labels can't agree if the graphic component is video.  If it's video like a DVD, DMCA says we can't copy it.  Yet the darn CDG's work in regular CD players, and converting those to a PC based format is perfectly legal.

As far as the whole media definition and legality of copying CDG subcoding, i've had ideas on that as well.  What if we all threw away the manufacturers CDG files and replaced them with a version that was pubically created?  They can't order you to use the original CDG animation in your shows.  They couldn't tell you to use an after market CDG file with their backing tracks no more than ford can tell you to use an after market midas muffler on your car as long as you legitimately purchased said backing track.

It's a lot of work. I'm hearing "Oh I have no time for this that or the other thing".  Is that really how much of a shameless self indulgent person you are that you can't put a few hours once in your life to help your fellow KJs reshape the karaoke world?  

I see this attitude a lot umongst KJ's.  I'm sad to say the overall majority of us are so busy trying to outdo one another instead of helping each other create a good standardization of what karaoke is as entertainment, a business, that everything is just a complete mess right now.  It's why i've spent the last 2 days and probably more hours than I should have here trying to get that through to you.  If enough of us all band together and agree on some basic groundrules, we can reinvent the wheel.  The general public will understand that when they go to karaoke, it's karaoke and not "Toqer's show" or "Jim bobs show" or "Mary Lamb chops show"  Let them come to all our shows knowing we all have the same quality as the next guy.

Once you get it to that point, it's all about the community, and what the venue offers.  It's no longer about you, it's no longer about if you're right.  It's %100 down to what the venues crowd wants. Everything from songbook selection, rotation, to hardware like mics and speakers is all left up to the crowd.  Making customers happy is #1, nothing else should matter to a KJ.  If someone spent more money than someone else for building that community, shouldn't they get preferential treatment?

I'm going to suggest to my folks to come register on this site and come comment their opinions on this thread.  And you really should participate in the experiment i'm offering.  If you know a better way, do it, prove it.  I'm putting my show at risk, not yours.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

I thought I smelled a "salesman".  Since I know see all this garble for what it is, this will be my last post on this subject because I have found it to be too absurb to waste any more of my time.  But I will leave with this.  One, not ALL of us KJ are broke; or unsuccessful.  And I repeat. I have enjoyed 4 susccessful years for many of reasons. One, being that much of my crowd has left "bribe run establishments" in favor of fair treatment.  I get paid well enoguh that I don't have to take money from the customer that could be going into the pocket of my employer.  And last, why would I put my crowd through this when I myself wouldn't set foot in a place that operated that way.

Somethings don't have to be "reinvented".  Bottom line, treat the customer like you would want to be treated and you can't go wrong.

Kelly

Gee would've thought I would be last then, but as the money grubber you are, I could ALWAYS put myself at the top when I want.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

thought I smelled a "salesman".[quote]

Was thinking the same thing with all the plug's

Let’s get back on track AGAIN   (lol)
Mr. October had a great Idea – A karaoke Showcase for some of your Top customers (regulars)
You put on a “special” show, invites only and make your regulars feel SPECIAL.  NICE!

How about ---FREE BUMP ME UP CARDS for your regulars. Give them out on the beginning
Of the month.  They can use 1 in a month for that special time were they can’t wait another 1-1/2 hours to sing there next song. Regulars can’t get upset because they have their OWN cards to use whenever they want.  And if you bump a regular in front of a NONE regular, well that’s the price of not being a “REGULAR”.  ALL INDUSTRIES HAVE VALUE CUSTOMER INCENTIVES!  
What makes a regular –I’LL LEAVE THAT UP TO YOU?

How about another idea ---- Sing ten songs in a month and get a free drink?
(Like card stamping – get 10 subs get your next one free).  If someone has their card and needs 1 more song for a free drink, they might just choose your show &bar (instead of the guy down the street)

How about a raffle every night for a FREE CDG – Song slips go in a hat and at the end of the night –pull out a winner ! –winners must be present – Heck you can buy CDGS for as little as
$2 now a days.

Ideas to make people want to go to YOUR SHOW  and BAR ---- Again let’s assume that all other shows in your area have GREAT SELECTIONS / GREAT SOUND / FAIR ROTATIONS  / GOOD KJ..   What would make your show SPECIAL and worth another $75-$100 per night ?

At least you get the gist of what i'm trying to get across Jam, you need create a community and comp/reward folks that participate in that community.

To the others saying i'm sleazy, unprofessional, horse rapist or this is a sales pitch.  It's not my fault everything i'm saying is to much for you to absorbe.  The software we created in house was a major part of the changes we did.  I don't care if you use it or not.  I don't care if you use a quiji board to take care of your shows, that's your business. The fact that you would shoot down somebody for suggesting another way of doing things really shows how closed minded you are.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Nothing wrong with a comp/reward to singers coming in.  A "FREE" bump me up card sounds great.  



I think it's wrong for any host to take money to bump someone, that is unethical in my opinion.  As far as your rotation program, it's nothing new, I know of several people using programs of those types.  Nobody "shot down" the rotation program, but trying to sell your program here is a violation of the TOS here.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

hey, in interests of full disclosure I go to Toqer's bar all the time. I'm sure I've been to dozens of karaoke bars (in multiple countries I might add) and I have to say I'm surprised at some of the comments I'm hearing. Toqer's show is easily the best run karaoke show I've ever been to.  Not once have I felt annoyed at his rotation or felt that I was ever waiting longer than normal.  I wouldn't say the same thing about most other places, even ones run by people I know.   Often when I go into a new karaoke bar, I get very little share of the rotation because I'm not friends with the KJ.  Not so with Toqer - new singers get priority.

People "tip" for a couple of reasons.  One is to reward a service provider for a job well done, another is to ensure that service is good now and in the future.  Karaoke DJs don't get paid all that much, not really.  People invariably tip a dollar or so per drink.  Good tips keep the drinks coming.  Not that many people end up tipping for Karaoke, so when someone gives an especially generous tip, why not treat them to slightly better service?  If I get bumped because someone dropped a 20-spot, I really don't care and in fact I'm happy they gave the hardworking KJ something for his troubles.  And it only happens sometimes, not constantly, so I still get my fair share of the stage.

But at the end of the day, different people and different cultures have varying opinions on personal and social obligations.  Try to tip someone in Japan or Finland and they will be insulted.  Don't tip someone in the US and you're likely to get stabbed (or get interesting surprises in your food next time around.)  This is something where not everyone can or should agree.  I can easily say that I don't know many people that are angry that a tip will get you bumped up in the queue, but if that's your opinion, that's fine.  

Ultimately, you need to know your audience.  If your audience doesn't like it, don't do it. But sometimes, its expected.

And on the topic of community, *every* good karaoke bar I've been to has a solid core of regulars that make the place fun.  Sometimes they are talented, sometimes they are funny, sometimes they make my ears bleed.  But the community gives the place its vibe and makes it what it is.  I've seen men scream out piercing renditions of britney spears and old men crooning songs my parents listened to.  Drunk girls getting a little too comfortable (er, well, maybe just comfortable enough) and entire crowds dancing and singing with the performer.  Places that are open and inviting, give people a fair opportunity to sing, and have a solid core of regulars are fun.  

my two cents - and if you disagree with me, cool. Actually, I think that was my point

toqer,

It appears that you are somewhat close-minded yourself.  Apparently you disagree with those of us who don't take bribes and that's okay... Keep in mind that you are not the know-all, end-all of the karaoke world, although I do appreciate your idea sharing.  

It's great that you and your partners created a rotation device and that it works so well for you but in our show and at this time if it isn't broken, I'm not going to fix it.  I don't mean that our show(s) haven't and won't evolve over the course of the years (8 years in same place) but we choose to run our shows differently; that doesn't mean we are close-minded or are shooting you down, we just don't agree.

Susie

_________________
You do it in the shower,
you do it in the car,
Ccome do it with us,
and be a star!!!!

Karaoke with Full House Entertainment

[scroll]Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean...... [/scroll]

In order for it to qualify it as me selling it, there has to be some sort of exchange of money for it.  It's free as in beer, or send a postcard or a thank you.  It's not MY program though.  It's a colloborative effort between a bunch of folks that were sickened by a bunch of untalented coders that were charging $$$ for other peoples works and the lack of quality in their hacked up monsters.  Hell, I couldn't write a line of code to save my life outside of some simple PHP and MySQL.  I might be guilty of promoting it, but it's changed everything for the few folks turned on to using it.  

There's bigger issues WRONG with karaoke that need fixing.  You want to be stuck on what a jerk I am, fine, but what are you doing personally to change and reinvent things things for the better for all of us.

I just got the KCDDB project the green light from the California Community Colo Project non profit group.  A free CD database maintained by karaoke people has been needed for some time.  Sure, AKDJ will use it, but so will every other karaoke ripping program out there. It will be free and open.  You will get a say in how the data will be maintained, delimted, and presented overall.

Instead you want to chastise me for how I run my show, sending me Pm's and trying to construde every little negative nugget you can from my posts.  You really have a problem.  I'm not going to answer your Pm's anymore t-towntenor.  Consider yourself on my ignore list.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Funny how when someone gets called on something, it's always a newbie to their defense.  

Anyway, I agree a tip for good service is always appreciated meaning to keep that good service up, when something MORE is EXPECTED other than just keeping the good service up, it is no longer a tip, but a bribe which makes someone who accepts one a piece of trash.  You wouldn't condone it in other areas ie politics, law enforcement...yes I know these are extreme, however, when these people are "bribed" they are labeled scum if accepted & often times can get into serious trouble from it & the briber can also get into serious trouble.
A bribe is NOT ok, in ANY profession.  I tip kj's all the time & will continue to do so if they keep things fair between everyone, run good mix, etc., but once I see someone getting bumped for a couple buck, I will not tip a kj, nor would I return to the establishment.  It may be common place where you are from, but it's not common here...most of the kj's that accept bribes here are out of work!
It's also funny that he would mention that some of the people mentioned that they turned down a bribe claiming "Well there must be interest in it", well 1 person does not make an "interest" for the rest.

_________________
[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I think i'll bump you up in rotation for that comment.

I'm not closed minded.  I'm doing what my crowd wants of me, so if you're going to say that about me, you're saying that about all of them.  Me calling folks closed minded was mostly directed at the ones that started with the name calling and saying I was sleazy/unethical/unprofessional.

As far as your stance on "not broke, don't fix it" I agree with that %100.  This thread however is about things being broke, and I'm working my butt off to fix it.  The #1 thing broke with karaoke today is KJ's big heads not listening to their customers and not focusing on letting the customer create the community.  If you have to come here to ask for advice, you're asking the wrong people.  You should be asking your customers what they want.  If you disagree with that, well good, hope you enjoy failure.  

You sound like you listen to your customers though.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Wasn't planning on sending anymore.  Only reason I did was to show a link of many other kj's that don't accest bribes & other singers points of views as well & since it's against TOS to post links to other forums, that would be the only reason.  Your response back was the start of the "private" session.  If you'd rather make it open, fine!

_________________
[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Ash is hardly a noob on my site or to karaoke.  I made publically made a call of arms for my people to read my points and counterpoints and honestly answer if they loved or hated it.  Expect more in the next few days.  


You can't compare a for profit business to an elected office or public service.  You're not "El presidente of Karaoke".  It's a job, a service job at that, and in service jobs more money always equals better service.  You're not going to jail for taking a bribe.



We're not talking about a couple of bucks here.  We're talking a $20 spot, an Andrew Jackson.  1/2 a tank of gas or dinner and a movie for me and the wife.  It's rare, might happen 4 times in a night.

As far as a good mix, if you're trying to "mix music" you're wasting your customers time.  They come there to sing, or watch others sing.


It's not common for YOU.  Everywhere else in America folks tip for better service.  After reading ash's comment, I was discussing things in chat with him and came to this conclusion.

[hr]
<toqer> all these things add up to building the community
<toqer> and why shouldn't folks that chipped in more to the community get first class treatment?
<toqer> wait
<toqer> I got a word for a community system that doesn't play favorites and doesn't reward
<toqer> its called COMMUNISM
<case> yeah
<case> that was actually my point with finland
<case> although I didn't make it explicit
<case> they were run by russia for almost a century

Hope you like Siberia.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

It's not common practice here either.  Like I said i've had a many people try to bribe me & I turned them down & they respected that integrity (a couple did leave - I say good riddence, don't need that attitude) & are regular customers now because of it.  I treat everyone the same whether you tip or not.  I don't work for tips, I get paid by the bar.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!