Karaoke Forums

What one calls a bribe another would consider it a tip.  Think of it this way, you're a bartender or a server and you have two tables, one who doesn't tip and one that tips extremely well.  Who is going to get faster, better service at the expense of another.  To me it's not a bribe, it's a tip.  Now when someone offered me money to get out of a speeding ticket, they got charged for bribery.  There's a huge difference between a bribe and a tip.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Absolutely not sleazy.  KJ is a service like bartending and waitressing, bribes/tips are part of the game no matter what you call them.  

My friends and I used to play this game when we were kids.  "Would you sleep with <insert name> for a million dollars?"  Names like Mike Tyson, Nancy Regan, you name it.

We were all sitting around getting stoned with this homeless dude one day.  Being totally baked we started playing the game with him.  "Would you lick Phylis Dillers dried out coochie for a million?" we asked him (side note, I don't remember exactly what we asked him)

Then he bestowed the best peice of wisdom on us we've ever heard.  "You can do an awful lot of forgetting for a million dollars"

None of us ever forgot that, and we learned a valuable lesson that day.  Everytime I take a tip/bribe I think of him.

I personally think any kj out there that takes a bribe is a low life scumbag.  You get paid already to do a job, you should have negotiated more money so you didn't have to rip people off.  A tip is one thing, i'm all for tipping good service ie "FAIR" rotation, good mix, no bumping...but I would never expect "special treatment" from it, a bribe is entirely different animal.
bribe

n : payment made to a person in a position of trust to corrupt his judgment

tip

n: A small sum of money given to someone for performing a service; a gratuity.


If I ever saw people buying their way to be able to sing more or before someone who might have been waiting & spending money at the club going on at a show, I would be out of there explaining to the manager why I would be spending my money down the street with a kj with morals.  Great that your customers accept that kind of behavior from you, I frankly feel sorry for them.  If a kj tried that at any of the places i've been to, the KJ would be out of a job.  It is NOT common practice here.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

So when I fully automate it pitting the customers in bribe wars against each other does that make the PC sleazy?

Really, all I care about is a few simple things.

The sound is working right.
Nobody steals the mic from the current singer.
The show runs smoothly

Everything else is all up to the crowd, if you take the KJ out of the rotation politics.

You know what my customers love about me?

I don't waste thier time.  Nope, I don't EVER sing period.  
My no BS honesty.  You want to bribe me? Sure!
Tits in the face or flirting do not get you bumped up
Someone stole the other mic and sang over your song? Lemme hit "STOP" and chew out the mic stealer how them stealing the mic is akin to a hobo stealing a sip off their drink.  While i'm at it let me put a video of said internet on the website under our hall of shame.

I fully respect and love my singers to the point where i've been the first to defend them.  They fully understand this is a business and business is here to make money. They understand I don't get paid a lot for the work I do and have to take every availiable oppertunity to make cash if i'm dedicated to their scene.


If you have winamp download and watch me defend a regular singer against a mic steal attack here.

Look, maybe it's different up where you live, but my singers love me, I love them.  Sure, they can go to about 10 different venues in San Jose, where they can sing for free I might add, but they don't.  They know they're going to get treated right here.  Not to mention SF bay area is a pretty liberal place.  Maybe you and your crowd is conservative, I dunno.

Like I said, managements in on it to.  The only time in the bars 15 year karaoke history we didn't get the bay area awards was a period when we had a KJ that didn't follow these rules.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

I'm moving on here, i'm getting back to reinventing the wheel.

Another thing that I don't see KJ's do enough is creating a scene.  Simply coming to a venue, plopping down some equipment and mics isn't enough to warrent you the pay you used to get.

Every KJ should know how to setup forums.  Even if you don't there are so many companies out there offering hosting for forums that even the worse technically inclined person could get one up for $15@mo.  

Set up forums and maybe a web gallery for the venue. Not yourself or your karaoke company, but the venue.  Again, no technical expertise is needed here, just a credit card and maybe $15@mo.

If you don't feel the venue is properly setup for karaoke, talk to the owner and offer your time free if they pay for materials.  Rebuild the stage.  Almost anyone can cut wood and hang curtains.

Now I can hear the responses already.. Why should I put out for a website, why should I put my time into my venue? Why why why.

It's all an investment in yourself.  The customers see you care enough to update the site, and make things better while the owners see you as an invaluable asset.

Most club owners haven't realized the benifit of having an interactive website.  7 Bamboo owners are an old japanese couple in their late 60's.  It was hell for me to convince them to let me build the website, but once they saw the benifit (they were visiting neices/nephews in japan and they pulled up the website with my stage reconstruction pictures) it clicked in their heads.  Holy smokes, this is worldwide.

If they can't replace you, they can't fire you.  If you build it, they will come.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

You need to turn this around.  Here's what I mean.


I spent years as a live entertainer in restaurant lounges, bars, etc.  My job as a lounge pianist was to entertain customers, make them happy for what purpose ?

To make the restaurant (business) MONEY. So here's my point.

At times I didn't have a choice regarding this bribe/tip scenerio . As a person employed by a business I was told, "Norton is like your boss, He spends ALOT of money at this place. The minute you see him walk thru that door you play his favorite song, If he asks you to play something you drop what you're doing and play it...YOU MUST make him happy!"  (Tip or NO tip for me that is).  Certain customers get their way, the business is happy. There are preferred customers.  (Naturally I didn't drop what I was doing if Norton asked me to play his song. I finished what I was playing, and played his choice next however). REGARDLESS of other customers requests in a lineup. Did he tip ?  Bribe ? make the place money ?  -YEP;  Basically, I had little creativity to do things "MY" way. My boss is the person who pays me.. If he tell's me to take "tips",  "bribes" or bark like a seal when a customer snaps his fingers the bottomline is if the restaurant likes me, I have work !!    I'm not renting space from them hourly to play piano.  They are paying me to perform and entertain THEIR customers.. It is all about $$$$. So alot of this depends on the particular situation, and what just works out best in a particular instance. We are also talking bar and restaurant business, not a church.. I suppose "morals" can be bumped back on the play list along with other customers songs if "Norton" wants to hear a song.  Just the way things worked sometimes. I agree in a world of pristine morals this does sound crude. In retail the larger purchase doesn't automatically cut in front of the line and checkout first. In the Restaurant and Bar businesses there's often a very different set of how things operate however. Sleazy ?  I suppose that depends on which side of the fence you view this from.

You see, Norton didn't just tip me... He tipped the bar, the restaurant, ran huge tabs and brought in ALOT of BUSINESS=MONEY.  Did I feel subservient and slutty ?  Hell yeah.  But whether I'm a Clown, KJ, Comedian, or live Musician I'm employed by a venue that has their own favorites too, much of the time.. These are business people that own these establishments.  Unfortuneately in business with "tip vs. bribe" and where one draws the line ?  It's like what toqer stated in essence.  There are times when "All aren't equal". Unfortuneately many of our bosses are also of the mentality, "Let that college kid wait, Dr. Rosenbladtt wants to sing his choreographed rendition of side b of the Minnie Ripperton album" again.
Sometimes, "It's business".  




Sometimes.  Other times there's a VERY fine line.

Bribe is a payment to influence someone.
Tip is a gift of money for service.

How different are these at times ? I agree that the difference SHOULD be in the "intent". Ideally "the tip" is just a thank you, with fewer "strings attached", but the problem is, people can be trained.  We like nice thank yous !

I step away for a smoke for 5 minutes and remember what else I did to re-invent the karaoke wheel.

After setting up the venue so it had it's own online scene, I really started stressing to our regulars that what we are is a "community".  I went into great detail about the perills of karaoke piracy, but I also educated them on the use of computers with karaoke.

Seeing me work so hard for their scene, the regulars wanted to help too.  I don't know if it was keeping up with the joneses, or pure appriciation, but in the last year they've donated over 73 CDG's to the bar.   In return we give them some free song tickets and their name printed under the "Thanks go out to" section of our songbook. We have them on the PC, and keep the real ones right above the PC in case of a bad rip.

Singers will buy Karaoke for a venue they regularly frequent.  That's why we're working on this.  We're talking to several karaoke companies right now, and will be having face to face discussions with them at NAMM.  Keeping my fingers crossed that we can close a few deals.

If you can sell karaoke legally, legitamatly to customers, and they don't want to deal with bringing their own scratchy crappy disks in, they'll gladly impulse buy a song for $5 to put in YOUR library.  The manufacterer can sell it for $2.50, you markup $2.50, profit.  Win win for everyone because why would you want to pirate when you could profit from folks building the songbook selection for the venue?  The karaoke manufactuer can compare the venues online songbooks to their purchases to check for piracy.  Everyone is happy.

Customers want to be in control.  They want to be in control of rotation (but within reasonable limits) They want control over the choice of songs to sing, they want choices and will play by the rules if they're all layed out for them.  They understand the issues of piracy, copyright, and licensing if you lay it down for them.  Educate them, tell them, and they will happily comply.  

Basically all customers want to have some control in the show.  You have 10 regulars putting in the effort, your straggler customers will notice and start participating.  End result, bigger crowds, and every feels good for making it happen.

Re-inventing the karaoke wheel is going to take a lot more than just adding gimmicks, or talk.  People need to put stuff out there.  People need to write karaoke singing congressmen like Mike Honda.  Mike knows the aged original 7 Bamboo DKK collection needed ripping to be preserved. I remember CD's skipping on him a few times

Folks need to agree on key issues like what constitues fair use.  I've talked to the owners of 10 different karaoke companies, and none of them can agree if computer based systems are legal.

It's really up to you, me, the singers, the venues, the lawmakers to re-invent the karaoke wheel.  I'm doing what I can.  I have to, I'm passionate about karaoke.  Something about watching all those people sing, good or bad just fascinates me.  Watching the faces of the singers light up when the crowd goes wild for them makes me feel good inside.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

One thing I have been doing recently is adding an electronic drum set to the mix.  Setup is very quick (plug it in, fold arms out) and than anyone that wants to try their hand behind the kit can simply request a song, come up and try it!  I usually get 10 to 15 people on the kit a night compared to maybe 50 singers a night, so it's a good start.

Heh, mr Kaplan, you were typing that as I was typing mine

Yes, that's the exact same situation i'm in.  There are the "Big Shots".  You have to cater to them, it benifits the entire bar.

Before karaoke, I worked in desktop support (guy that runs around the company fixing everyones computer)

I was 20 years old when I first started.  Desktop support, everyone that needs fixing is assigned a "trouble ticket".  When I first started, nobody told me you had to arrange your trouble tickets according to the persons Corporate or political rank within the company.  For example, I would just run my tickets in the ordered recieved.  If a company officer put in a ticket 5 or 6 tickets down on the bottom, it could be till the end of the day till they got fixed.

The hard lesson in that was I lost a lot of jobs until I figured it out.

CEO CFO CIO All get first priority.
Secretaries of above, 2nd priority
Managers, 3rd priority
Manager Secretaries 4th Priority
Lackies 5 priority
contractors and temps, 6th priority.

There was ways I could work the trouble ticket system to my advantage there.  Once I figured that out, I kept climbing the corporate ladder and payscale until the bubble burst, but man what a fun ride.

The karaoke crowd is really no different, except the only thing that pulls rank is how much money is spent overall.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

You just turned me onto a brilliantly evil idea Kaplan.  More evil than global adjusting the tempo of all songs to squeeze more into the night.

What if the rotation system was tied into the bars point of sales system and singers were bumped based on what they spent overall?  

It makes a lot of sense to me because the biggest tabs would be from parties and larger groups.  There would be other factors calculated too, like how often a customer sings / drinks there.  Sort of like the point system you see on this very forum.  Rotation Karma for good behavior.

Good Karma would be
Regulars drinking every night.
An explosion of purchased drinks on a tab in one night (large parties)
First time customers
Good tippers

Bad Karma would be
Drinking water
Ocassional singing
Singing certain songs (summer nights, bohemian, american pie, ugghh)
Bad tippers

There is some interesting good/bad behavior that should be rewarded or comped into rotation somehow.  Heck, casino's comp.

I'll never be able to create a system tied into a point of sales system because the old bamboo owners just wouldn't trust it. (they use an old cash register and seperate credit card machine, they would never trust this hi-tech stuff around the money)  Not to mention we just don't have a POS system to test and develop with. But dang, i'm way curious now to see/make it.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

JAMKARAOKE,

   Lot's of interesting suggestions, however it appears to me that these conditions might setup a very tough scenerio to overcome.





Additionally, external conditions such as tougher liquor laws, and a different economy today affect the bar business in general adversely. How does a bar owners revenue compare today in a venue that brought you $300 in the past ?  Even assuming revenue IS the same today Whether KJ's like it or not, there IS more competition today. Short of what was already suggested and "whacking Cousin Barney" coupled with this;


Bar's haven't the revenue AND bar owners are satisfied getting their product at the "Dollarama" now ?   There's nothing for you folks to compete against. Unless you are willing to make Cousin Barney's wages. Do you really want that ?
Possibly another condition that might currently exist too is; Is Karakoke a "fad" ? Entertainment that's well beyond it's novelty phase ? If-so, it appears that there isn't much that can really be done from the "inside" as a KJ to remedy the above conditions, and rejeuvenate a tenuous situation for you folks. Can you reinvent a "fad" ? No.  Assuming you could, I think you'd still have to kill cousin Barney, or cut his arms off. You'd still have competition, and bar revenue would still suck.

Searching for work in private venues such as weddings, or other functions of course is an option. Yet I see things as follows, (pardon the analogy) but in the early 80's I still loved the larger Buicks. Problem is, Honda and Toyota DID make less expensive cars for me both short term and longer term given gas savings, etc.   Regardless how much Buick embellished it's larger more costly models, I felt I could only afford an "economy" car at the time. Given certain conditions, similarly bars are hiring these "economy KJ's". Despite modifications you make at your end, you might've become professionals that are "over qualified" for the job, given the above variables.

We musicians went through some of this too.  Bar's couldn't afford bands, DJ's or KJ's were less costly. 5+ piece bands no longer could get decent money even at dance clubs. That was never easy, but it got progressively tougher. Even duo's weren't getting paid enough.  The "one man band" worked for abit, yet times changed, and Karaoke replaced many a coffee house type guitarist, etc.  If bar owners are satisfied paying under $100 for 4 hours to some kid who has less experience.  I don't see what you KJ's can possibly do, or could even wish to do to get a foot back in that door.  In essence current conditions working against bars, and a situation that currently exists, has forced you folks into an early retirement in some cases.  As to speculating and being innovative enough to project what the next "money maker" will be for those of you with a given skill.. VERY tough to do. Here's the problem however. Cousin Barney is going to in time tag along and try that too !!  If bars can't afford to pay their entertainment much these days, and they aren't scrutinizing the quality of their entertainment, seems there isn't work for you pro's in bars ! Not in a market that is both saturated with, and hiring from nickle & dime amateurs. The $300 market of the past you speak of, is just that.

Successful bars and chains know that they can write off bands/djs/kjs on thier taxes as an operating expense and actually save some money at the end of the year through the entertainment they provide. It is the smaller mom-and-pop bars (which most karaoke bars seem to be) that actually take a hit on their profits by providing entertainment, and thus watch that cost like a hawk.....

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Perhaps Topher,  and those successful bars have we displaced desparate musicians lined up competing for band gig work still too .  There's ALOT of competition to get those gigs. I wonder how large a percentage of the market that affects you once higher paid KJ's has been crimped by the smaller businesses hurting ?   I'd imagine a significant portion.

Many good and CREATIVE ideas flowing around.-  One suggestion - Let's not call it BRIBE..Maybe reinventing the idea of PAY TO SING !  Maybe KJ's should make a few extra $$$ by allowing some singers the ability to BUMP themselves up. Hey make the policy an open policy instead of some sleazy back door BRIBE.  
Example:

6 flags amusement park here in NJ was famous for VERY LONG WAITS at some of the more WANTED rides.  SO a few years ago they instituted a SPEED NO WAIT PASS.  Which was this....Along side the regular lines were added NO WAIT lines - Besides your admission to the park which is expensive YOU HAD THE OPTION of purchasing a SPEED PASS FOR EXTRA MONEY $$$$$$$. You then would go directly to these no wait lines and wait there with the other speed pass holders.--- Now if you don't like the fact of someone bumping themselves up --BUY A PASS YOURSELF ...  Could THIS WORK IN KARAOKE?   Maybe give your regulars
FREE SPEED PASSES TO START ? Have two rotation lists?

That's pretty much what i've done. (except I still don't consider the word bribe dirty) Everybody that comes into bamboo knows this, it's a totally open policy.  

It wasn't just corporate experience that influenced me.  I used to be a hardcore karaoke singer (7 nights a week, 7 martinis a night, 7 months STRAIGHT)  Besides giving my liver a good lesson in digesting liquor and maxing out my credit card on tabs, I learned a lot of what I liked/disliked about KJ's.

Whenever i'd drop a $10 on a KJ without getting a bump, I would never drop a tip/bribe on them again.  Hell i'd end up not going to their show again.  Here I was spending $40 in martinis, tipping everyone like crazy, and not getting the service I expected from the staff.  I was to drunk to care about rotation.  Something about having liquor coursing through my viens just totally made concepts as complicated as rotation go out the window.

Other things would set me off too.  Playing favorites, stage hogging by the KJ, screwing with my mic, bumping my song way down the playlist.  Again, being drunk I probably just didn't know any better.

An open bump/bribe/tip policy is the best way though.  Customers will understand if they have to wait 1 or 2 songs.  Heck, like I said earlier, make it profitable for you and the bumped down singers by buying them a drink.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

If you came to my show & put a tip in my jar, expect a thank you & nothing else...I could care less if you never tipped me again, I don't work on tips, I get paid from the club.  People come to my shows & 1 reason is because I DON'T accept bribes!  They know they aren't going to "bumped" because someone thinks that because they may have some cash that I can be bought.  I can't & OUR customers know that going in.  Don't try telling the owner either, they are on MY side & have told customers that have gotten irritated because I wouldn't bump them to either accept it or get out!  They wholeheartidly don't believe in bribes either & neither do I.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

AMEN!  When was the last time you "tipped" your waitress before you ordered your meal???  That's my whole point.  Call it whatever you want to, but accepting money in advance with the expectation of being treated better than someone else is a BRIBE.  I KJ part time in a community of almost 65,000.  I have the longest running karaoke act in town. Three nights a week.  Will be starting my 5th year in Jan.  The other places come and go because 1. Unfair rotation. 2. Bad equipment. and 3. KJ's who take bribes.  The last drunk who shoved a $100 bill in my face was politely escorted out the front door by me.  To a thunderous cheer from the crowd.  Fairness is the biggest compliment I get time in and time out.  And as the previous post stated, The club pays me.  Also the club does not dictate to me how I run my show or expect me to show anyone favoritism.  I don't tell them how to make the drinks either.  If the club wants to show a special thank you to a particular cliantel, then they give them something off their bill or some free drinks.  Call me stupid if you wish, but I still belive in treating people like I would want to be treated.  And in my case it works.

I do accept tips. But only those with no strings attached.  I also do not use a tip jar.  As I said, the club is who I expect to pay me.  They make enough off drinks and food; they can more than enough do so. Please do not try to intermingle the words bribe or tips.  They are 2 completely different things.  One is a sincere thank you and the other is nothing less than unethical.

Kelly

One additional thing.  My fulltime jon is that of a fire chief..  I have been in government service most of my adult life.  Believe me when I say I know the difference between a bribe and a thank you.  I don't take bribes in the day time.  I sure as hell won't take them at night.

Kelly

What you mean if there were two houses on fire & the owner of one house offered you cash to put his fire out first you wouldn't jump at the chance?  
I've turned down $50 bills waived in my face to get them up next.  They seem surprised when I say no, funny thing is they said they really respect that I am not out for "blood money" as they put it & are now regular customers because of it - and they do "tip" me well everytime they come in without anything in return!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

TIPS -  To Insure PROMPT Service not for ok service but to serve me and if I pay/tip well I expect superior service especially over those that do not.  And in today's market where some of you complaining about $50-75 nights, I personally don't see the problem, since this is essentially a minimum wage for hosts just as most bartenders/servers receive minimum wage.

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You can be strange but not a stranger