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I am a KJ in the Philadelphia suburbs near the Eagleville/King of Prussia area.  I host karaoke one night a week, on Friday nights.  I do this mainly for fun, and my group is very loyal and they have fun with it too.  There is a certain KJ in my area who came in, sang, and then was bashing me to the owner, saying (in so many words) she could do a better job.  In other words, she is trying to steal it from me.  I heard this from someone who was standing nearby when she was saying it.  The owner likes me a lot, and says not to pay attention.  My problem is that this is the second place she has tried to do this.  I confronted her then, and she assured me she didn't do it.  I know for a fact she did.  She has quite the reputation for this sort of behavior among other KJs.  I won't mention any names (but think Dexy's Midnight Runners).  Anyway, I wanted to get that out there, because for the amount of money you make at these shows (and it ain't much), I certainly wouldn't think this behavior would be tolerated.

twient,

It's all part of the competetive business- even though it sux when some KJ's come right into your gig and try to steal it.  Business is Business and some KJ's don't have that brotherly or sisterly love for one another. They will steal you gig right from under you by badmouthing you or  BS'ing how big their following is etc.

Don't sweat it --Host a good show and keep a good relationship with the owners and managers (and also the bartenders)  and more than not you will be okay

I know it's business, but it sucks, because I NEVER go into someone else's place, especially when they are there.  The money isn't that good at all.  I just don't understand the competition there.  It's not like it's wedding money, where you can make 5X as much.  Whatever.  I am wondering if anyone around has an opinion on the KJ I was hinting at.

you know what I'd do?

Confront the kj on the specific points, and when she balks at saying what she said, ask the owner to come over and confirm... and then engage in a polite debate why you "suck"... how her show is better, and how she is a better kj for coming in and saying the things she said.

Now, this opinion is different than JAMs, and here's why:

I've had this happen... and I've had the owner stand up for me point for point. Loyalty is wonderful, but there comes a time when you HAVE to confront this kind of behavior. If only for your own sake of mind. BUT you better be ready to face the music, so to speak...

I've done what this lady kj has done... gone into a show that flat out sucked, and then told the owners WHY. I also listed several reasons why I felt I was better. I've even handed the owner/manager my card and said "look me up when you want a better karaoke experience than this."

Now, I've never UNDERBID... nor have I disrespected the kj as a person, unless they were a worthless drunk and it was OBVIOUS the customers were displeased.

JUST because you're in a venue doesn't  mean that you are there for life... you have to earn that right by continuing to do a CLASS job... by keeping your books up to date, by never showing favortism, by keeping your discs in great shape and replacing them (if using physical discs and not on computer) when needed... all the basic KJ101 items! ! I mean, COKE and PEPSI go into each other's venues all the TIME... that part of competition is NATURAL...

But I DO agree with you twient that this kj is crossing the line by following you and for the second time, trying to take a venue from you. That part is very suspect.

It's business, if you're good you have nothing to worry about.  If you lose the show, get another one.  We never worry about the competition, we never missed more than one week (ie one show) of work.

Thos KJ has done nothing unethical, whether you like it or not.  Pepsi goes in to a bar and says our product is better in Coke venue and vice versa.  Ain't free enterprise wonderful.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Letting consumers know what you can offer to their business isn't unethical, but



lowering it to a personal level to get business is. Most code of ethics are established amongst individuals and companies in that particular field by the daily business practices of the average individual/company. The code of ethics are not clearly defined there just something expected from the respectful individual/company. Yes business is business but I wouldn't define this as business as usual. Most in my area have established that it is unethical to go in to another KJ's bar and use unproffesional tactics in order to gain a job. Communicating with prospective customers via professional channels is ethical and allows for a competitive atmosphere. This does appear to be unethical practice being used by an individual that is desperate and can't compete on a level playing field. This will catch up with this individual. continue doing what you're doing.



 Her reputation will be her down fall.

I have a simular situation myself. When we first started kj'ing we were going to other shows but never did I aproach the owner and try to steal a show. One of the bartenders had heard that I had started our own business and told me to talk with the owner that she was looking to replace the other KJ. I then spoke to the owner and offered my service if needed in the future and that my rates were quite a bit more than what she was paying now. I didn't try to take the show or bad mouth the other kj.

A few days later I recieved a call from the owner and she offered me a job so I accepted. Since then the other kj has who come and sings with us, goes and trys to cause problems saying that I am offending singers, customers and causing them to leave and never come back. He tells this to customers, bartenders and the owner, now we all know he is just blowing out his blank.. But you get tired of hearing this and I confronted him and one other who was involved and they both denied everything. Thought or hoped that was the end of it. NOT

That night he went to an other bar and started up again saying stuff. I talked to him on that and he denied it again and said he would never be back. That lasted one week and he was back. Wish shooting people was legal. He kept quiet for a few weeks and now again I hear he is saying stuff again. This time he is saying it is comming from an other KJ who comes to our shows. Said that I upset him and that he would never be back. Well he called me one night and asked me if I had heard any good rumors, and I told him what I had heard. His reply was that was not true and that he had confronted him at his show. Of course all this goes to the owner where I work and I have had to defend my self once or twice over this stuff.

I have let this guy come back and sing with us but I am about to say the heck with it and he is not allowed to sing on MY Equipment using MY Music.

VENTING IS OVER

Oh well life is fun so enjoy

I had the same thing happen to me and the bar fired the KJ and then offered it to me. The KJ tried to claim I stole the gig and got him fired. I ended up turning down the gig. Not because of what he claimed but due to the fact they only wanted DJing and no Karaoke. I didn't really want to get in to that. They were willing to give more money but I was already KJ'ing two nights a week with a full time job and family. It would have been more of a hassle and I really like do Karaoke.  :D

I do take it personally, perhaps because it is more or less a hobby to me.  Sure, i get paid, but the money ain't that great.  I know a lot of KJs, and this is the only one I've had that problem with.  To come up and sing at my show and then to go to the owner to bash it a couple of minutes later...that's not business, that's chicken****.

By the way, I am not threatened at all, because I have never lost a job before.  If I do, so what?  It's just that this person has no class.

Part of the reason kj's don't get paid what they should in the first place....sorry if anyone feels differently, but it's true!  "Hobbiests" come in & do gigs for a low price thus driving down the prices in a given area.  Clubs get wind of these things & once Club B find out what Club A is paying they go to their karaoke company & ask why they aren't getting that kind of deal & decide to go find another company that WILL charge less.  Usually not as good of a company to begin with but the club is saving money so no big deal (at least until they see the loss of revenue).
Tim's Pepsi/Coke debate isn't a bad analogy, although they don't continue to lower their prices everyday just to get into a new place, a sale is one thing, but the everyday lowball price isn't.

Well, I should also add that I am a wedding DJ.  I make major $ there.  I get paid what I am worth.  I am also one of the higher paid karaoke people in my area, from what I hear.  I have a large and loyal following that will pack a bar with just an e-mail.  I also have the great equipment and sound.  I also put on a very interactove show and I am always looking for ways to make it better.  Perhaps what I should have said is that I do karaoke because I love doing it.  Nothing wrong with doing something you love to do.  The fact is, bar jobs never pay that much (compared to weddings).  If anything, I am quite confident that I drive up the price in my area, because bars make a ton of money off my followers.  I can afford to sit back and pick and choose the places I want to be in.  In fact, when the owners from my last bar divorced and sold the place, I just sat around, content with having my Friday nights off.  My karaoke people went out and scouted for places for me.  I worked at a couple until I found the one I liked.

I also have no problem having other KJs working at the same bar I do.  In fact, I have got jobs for other KJs in my places (wihtout taking a dime).  And when they come to my shows, I even give them a plug.  I did just that for the person who showed up at my gig and badmouthed me by mentioned she does a great job at her karaoke.  And she does.  I am also sure that I make just as much as she would.  This is my one night I chose to host karaoke (family obligations, etc.), and I give my all that one night.  Anyway, I am not worried, because if I were to lose my gig there, I would lay around and wait for the next one.  I do understand what you are trying to say, though.  You are talking about lowballers.  I get paid my worth, so I am not one.

You said you get paid what you're worth, but you first stated that the money you make isn't all that much in the clubs.

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Some interesting possible solutions at dealing with this situation were brought up, most with merit.  As I see it,  whenever you have a skill and are in ANY aspect of the performing arts, or just ANY position that requires the least bit of skill, beit a business or even offering a voluntary service, (perhaps even just a hobbyist at some gathering doing something you love) it's only a matter of time until someone comes along and either tries to undercut you, or feels a need to start denegrading you boasting to others that either they can perform a task better than you, or their relative provides a service for a better rate, and has more expertise, etc. It's unavoidable, and as Timberlea mentioned in many cases it's an element of competitive self promotion, a businessman trying to "sell himself" (and as crappy as this feels when it happens to us) I agree with what JAMKARAOKE, and Timberlea have stated, it's arguable as to whether such aggressive methods are "wrong", although it's obvious that they aren't noble. I personally hate when this stuff happens and try to apply "Do unto others", but some things just are dog-eat-dog in business as was stated. Look at job interviews and the principle they work under. The person who somehow sells themselves to whomever is hiring get's the job. Which brings me to the next point. It's up to your boss to decide whether or not he's done hiring or not. You have no control of this as maddening as it can be. You can't control others actions. Hopefully your boss knows you, likes you and when he said "don't worry about it" He meant just that. Some have mentioned ways to deal with this and assuming you were a different type person, you could even go into a place of work that this female (who has become your "nemesis") works at, and start trashing her, trying for her gig, OR depending on your own disposition, your bosses personality, and the actual qualifications of this woman confronting it at your current place at work. Naturally that can backfire. When your boss said "don't worry about it", for all you know he meant "let it go". If for some reason he liked something about this woman (might not even be her job qualifications) he might start having her work an alternate night. EVEN if he likes you.  If he doesn't like you, or he's ready to hire someone else, there's NOTHING you can do. He already knows you. If he likes you, and you have sold yourself to him already, and he's not hiring "don't worry about it". Perhaps the best thing to do, is just assume this is none of your business. It's between her and your boss.



and the flipside of this is going to be those that will challenge you. It's going to happen !  You have to have confidence in knowing that if what you say is so, the venues that hire you know your value. If your abilities provide a healthy source of revenue to your employers, what more can you provide them with ?

The more you get out and become known, the more people are going to in essence start playing "King of the Mountain", challenging you and trying to show you up.   Some will want that pitance you earn, other's just feel compelled to brag and showoff at your expense. Given enough time, someone better (despite their crappy ethics) WILL show you up. None of us are impervious to this. I agree that it's not a pretty situation, certain techs and musicians in the music industry consider certain types of behaviour a violation of the "Code of the Road" as well, yet it just seems unavoidable given time. Any job that requires the slightest amount of skill, someone will in time be boasting to whomever is your boss, that they or someone they know can "smoke" you. I had to deal with this alot as a musician, and quite honestly sometimes all *I feel* we can fall back on, and resort to is knowing we did the best we were capable of doing, and taking solace in adhering to our own ethics.






(You can also pray that a moose jumps in front of this girls car)

If your keeping the room full when your working and the bar's making money from yoru show night after night-you have NOTHING to worry about. Bottom line is BUTTS in the SEATS.  Bar owner is there to make money. And if he's making money from your show then he knows EXACTLY what this woman is. And where his bread is buttered. So I wouldnt worry too much about it. If shes becoming DISRUPTIVE have security remove here from the bar. If shes becoming LIBELOUS or SLANDERING you publicly--send her a cease and desist letter from your attorney(usually about 100$ or less to do that). But If you're making money for the bar---theres nothing to worrry about. There's nothing she can do to IMPROVE your REVENUE PRODUCTIVITY and VALUE for the bar.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Sorry, I missed this.  If this is the case, aren't you dignifying her by expending such energy focusing on her ?  I agree it's not a fun situation, but why not leave her "classless" behaviour as an ugly aspect of her character, and rather than ruminate, let it go. People like this end up shooting themselves in the foot. She probably trashes her bosses too. This stuff get's around.



You stated a few things I don't understand.  In your original paragraph you state this girl was "bashing you". It appears that what she's done is "stated to the bar owner that she feels she can perform your job better than you".  Does that constitute "bashing" to you ?  You also state this.



To me, it doesn't appear that you really know much firsthand.

and as a possible defense to whatever conversation she was having that someone "overheard" part of, you mention



so depending on what conversation she was in the midst of that someone overheard, assuming she's not being the most "respectable" person in the world, she probably believes what she says. Was she going for your job ?  or just bragging that she feels she's "better than you", and this bruised your ego . I'm not saying it wouldn't bother me either, but face it... You state you are good, and can get most of the gig's you want.  You state you have a large following.. You need to develop a thicker skin if you are at the upper end of your area's competitive market.


You can't control how other people talk about you. These same issues bother the hell out've me as well, I won't lie.  NEVER go into politics though . All you know about this situation, is secondhand.

Depending on how brazen I was feeling, I might confront her saying something wild to try to put an end to this (not that it would), but just trying to humiliate her, (since this is just a hobby for you, and she's obviously a thorn in your side). Something like;

"Look, I have very few gigs, I have another life besides this. This is just something I do because I love it, but you follow me around trying to pull the rug out from under me,  and steal my one day a week job. You want this ?  Just say yes, and I'll get on the microphone right now, and announce that I've resigned my one day a week job to someone who so desparately has a need to go behind other's backs, and take their work from them."

Worst case scenerio, she'll say OK  LOL  , but I doubt it.

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Twient, if you're filling the bar to capacity, then why aren't you making great money.  Seems to be a contradiction to me.  If the bar is bringing in say $2,000+ while you're there, you should be making a minimum of $300 a night if not $400.  If you're making less than $200 you're being ripped off.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

This will happen among amature KJ / DJ more than Pro KJ / DJ's

Nothing against you it is just the truth.

My bar owners know I am the best value and work very hard for them.

#1 If you had a contract with your bar you would not care nor worry about someone trying to take your gig. I have 1 year contracts will all of my bars and If someone want to take over when my contract is done that is just fine with me.

#2 Most Kj's are petty, work as a second job, and don't care who they stomp on. I had a guy come into my Tuesday night bar and offer the owner to take my job for $60 a night. The owner asked the guy what type of service can he provide for $60 a night and the guy was asked to leave.

#3 Treat yourself fairly. Don't give away your service. You may only work this for fun 1 night a week but it should be treated as a business, and anything esle a fall back plan. If you are good at what you do, people with pay fair market value for your service. General Rule of thumb is 10% gross sales for a begining / amature DJ and 15% to 20% for a known professional DJ.

Things everyone should look into to seperate them selves form the bottom feeders.

Insurance, a $2,000,000 liability policy is only around $200 a year and should be carried by every kj/dj.

Marketing, Sell you client something, for very small fee on can put together a website to advertise themselves and their clients to potential customers.

There will allways be someone that will work for less money that you. Your goal is to show your clients what a value thay are getting from your service.

...meaning money isn't as good in bars (not clubs) as it is in weddings...

...just to clarify...I make $350 for 4 hours, which is good money for a bar that size...my point wasn't that just because I do this for the enjoyment that I shouldn't expect competition.  Besides, the joy I derive from doing it is partly what makes me so good at it.  My point was that you should not have to resort to bashing other people to try to get ahead, especially when you just got through singing at their show not 10 minutes before.  If this person wants to come in some other time and tout her skills and say how good she is, fine.  More power to her.  This is not heresay either.  Though I was alerted by other people as to her actions, I was told directly by the owners of two bars where I was doing the karaoke.  They thought it lacked class too.  I am not worried about my job at all.  I just don't think this is an ethical way to act.  I know of no other KJ (though I'm sure there are some) in my area who acts this way.  That's my opinion.  I just wanted to get it out there.  I have had other people (singers and KJs alike) say the same thing about her, including one on this forum who said he had heard of her reputation.  Again, I'm not worried at all.  I just have no time for people with no class.