Karaoke Forums

you give them what they deserve. No more, and certainly no less. If you are going to rank and rank honestly. I personally would be tickled pink with a NINE!

But with all the fluffeese that is uttered on the showcase, maybe it IS appropriate to be upset when your score drops below 9.6!

And Roxey, they don't know who they're listenin' to if they tell you to stop! I've enjoyed your subs for a long time, and look forward to the next ones!

I don't think anyone is upset over having a score of 9.6 or below.  People are upset because people are saying one thing and ranking another and it shows in the rank after they comment.   Would be the same thing if someone had a straight 9 going and all of a sudden it was brought down to a 8 or a 7 point something.

As for the "fluffeese".......I guess I'm guilty!  But the one thing I'm not guilty of is causing someone to stop subbing or to cancel their paid memberships.   Some of our best singers are being run off this site because of such behavior.  

You can't win here........some people get upset if you are nice and others get upset when you do an honest critique.  This ranking thing has become a cat and mouse game.  "If you get me.....I'm going to get you".  I don't go for that and am not guilty of that either.  

And it really ticks me off to hear someone say what they did to Foxeroxy, Connie and Joyce.  It's so "high school".  So I think I had much rather be in the "fluffy" category than in the one with these people that treat people that way.

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

Hi! It is not a problem to get a 9! I am happy with the score I get, the problem lies in what Rita keeps talking about. When you have  certain score, and certainly a number of people must have been close to agreement for you to have such a score, then one person comes (here is the problem) there comment suggests that you have done a great job on the song, offers no criticism whatsoever (constructive or destructive) just calls it great, then drops the score.  I agree, to receive a 9.6 is not bad at all! I dont think anyone would be upset over a 9.6, certainly not me. I dont consider myself to be a "perfect singer" as Cindy suggests that the person who receives a 10 must be.  As a matter of a fact, I have always wondered why anyone ever bothered to listen to me anyway. I get amazed at the number of people who attend my concerts. I don't do karaoke bars, or karaoke at all outside of this site.  I do live shows with my band.  Yes, I have recorded cd's, and yes, I even get radio air play for some of my tunes, but I still have never really thought of myself as that good of a singer. To get a 10 is rather overwhelming to me, and quite a compliment. I appreciate those who have wanted to give me a 10 and I also appreciate those who do not. But at least tell me why. Send me a pm, do something but at least let me know. I dont usually rank people. I will listen and comment but I usually dont rank them. After all, I dont have a degree in music, although I am considered a professional musician because of the fact that I have cd's for sell and play professionally.  I know what I like, but that is only my opinion, so I dont rank it.  I can promise you, if it is a song that I dont like the genre, I am not even going to bother to go listen to it. Why do I want to subject myself to listening to stuff I dont like? I wont. I am however a very versitile person, and I do like a variety of genres so I listen to quite a few people.  I do country, if I do rank someone, it would be someone who did a country sub.  If the emotion does not seem to be there when I listen, I also have to determine if the lack of emotion is caused by me and my listening rather than the person who sings it.  After all, we can be imperfect listeners as well.  The whole system is flawed, in that we are all human and are capable of human mistakes. Peter, I am not angry at you. Dont take it that way. In the beginning, I was only commenting how such a thing had recently happened to me. No harm done as far as I am concerned. It is a good place to come to listen to people who have a common love, music. To me, that is the best part about SS.  The rest, as I can tell, is a dead horse.  I am cowboy enough to realize you cant ride a dead horse. So I will get off this horse! I will concentrate on the parts of this site that I do like and enjoy it for what it is most to me, a place to meet people, make new friends, and enjoy music.

I have long ago decided not to rank.

There were times when after listening to a particular song that I think should get the max point but only score  a low 8, that I was tempted to give that song a 10 but I always avoid doing it.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

It's this entire DISCUSSION that backs up my thoughts on why I stopped subbing here in the first place... and the place I DO sub at ONLY gives comments.

Ranking is SOLELY responsible for the behavior you guys are complaining about. Take away the rank options, you'll only have people telling you ya sucked or you did good. maybe that's the problem. Maybe we bloody americans are sooo wrapped up in status we HAVE to have some kind of rank. Martial arts when first introduced to Americans was weird for most of the students as there were THREE ranks. Student, Master and somewhere inbetween! People freaked because they had no way to "gauge" themselves. Hence the colored belt systems were introduced. This is an American icon, and most overseas systems have adapted...

Yes someone was complaining on here that they had a 10 and it was brought down to a 9.whatever. If you get above a six, be happy that you don't suck is my motto. But people don't rank appropriately on here.

I can tell you guys TRUTHFULLY I've only heard a smattering of 10s on here in the entire time I was an active member of S.S. The majority are 8s, with lots of sevens thrown in for good measure. I used to be mystified at those that WOULD get 10s when they were clearly a 5 or so! I used to fight it. No longer. You guys want your fantasy... have it. I know what I want and the ranking system is NOT it because it's NOT reality.

I try to stay out of conflict wherever possible, because I'm here to sing, not get into cliques or politics - but this is starting to get to me.

Knightshow, I don't get you. Almost every post of yours is positively hostile about the singers showcase, yet you keep posting about it. You have decided - for your own personal reasons - to stop subbing songs. That's fine. But why continue to come back and berate those who do choose to be a part of it? Simply because you think the entire rating system is evil and flawed, why does that lead you to continually treat those who do take part - or who dare to actually use this forum to discuss it - as whiners or worse?

I used to work for an online video game company and I would always find myself amazed at the number of people who would quit playing the game because they no longer enjoyed it, yet still continue to come to the forum for months or even years to berate the game and those who continued to play it. Why? If you don't enjoy an aspect of something, don't take part. You've already stated you no longer sub songs. Great, that sounds like the best choice considering your dislike of the system.

But your posts here - as well as a couple of other people who seem to have given up subbing a long time ago - are condescending and often mean, and I don't understand what you get out of that. I assume you're a long-time member and I'm sure there's a long history I don't know, but I'm new here, and I'm only calling it like I see it.

I'd like to think that this handy "singer's forum" can be used to discuss our thoughts about ratings and critiques without being CONSTANTLY told how wrong we are for wanting to discuss it.

I am NOT mean, nor condescending. What I give are the facts, pure and simple. I don't surround myself with fluffeese nor dance around the subject daring to not hurt the feelings of who I'm talking with.

Don't like what I have to say, either skip over them, or take a long hard look at what I'm saying. It might apply. If it doesn't, hey, cyberspace is free.

I say what I want to say, WHEN I want to say it. I was a paying member of the SS site, and left due to conflicts with management and some of the whiners on here. I stay on board as a person with some expertise in the tech area, and occassionally venture over here. I don't chime in on the regular conversations, and follow all the other threads... I only jump in when I think you guys are getting so fluffed out you need some cold water thrown in to bring it down to reality.

Go back thru this thread and the "death of a 10" and see what I'm talking about. There is no hostility here. It's ASTONISHMENT that Adults are acting like babies over being ranked... and being ranked less then perfect. I find that HYSTERICAL! There are those that complain about the amateur VS professional aspect, there are those that are complaining of sniper ratings... Whatever!  

Back when I ranked, I did so honestly. I didn't rank a submission if it was along a line that I had either no interest or expertise in... Country, Rap/hip-hop... I couldn't adequately rank those if my life depended on it, and I know it. Most of the time, unless it was a song I knew, I skipped over them. I tried to be polite, but after a few mewling seconds of what I considered possible brain damage, I opted to leave and NOT comment. Occassionally I'd see a sub that I wanted to check. And see all these glowing comments about "OH MY GAWD ThIS IS THE BEST EVER!!" and I'd listen and wonder if I accidently clicked on the wrong submission!

I USED to fight it. I used to try to be honest ... but people don't WANT honesty. They want to be patted on the back and told what a great sub it was, even when it was just average. Maybe they're kinder than I am. Maybe they see the effort. All I know is I run into people like these average wannabes at my show who think their poo don't stink and then they sing a song and the venue MIGHT respond in accordance with the level of their singing capability. And you know, I'm NOT cruel. I feel sorry for them to see their hopes dashed a bit like that.

Maybe if they'd been told the truth all along that wouldn't happen, and I wouldn't have to be ultra kind and encourage the listeners at my venue to give them some applause!

So sorry you feel I'm mean or snotty or whatever. Believe it or not, my pulse never changed an iota when I read your comemnts, and responded in kind.

As I said, some people can't handle the truth.

You really threw me for a loop with this!  Don't really have anything else to say because I haven't picked my mouth up off the floor yet.

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

An essay on ranking
The subject of ranking has been covered intensively by the world press over the past decade. I really, really like ranking. Though ranking is a favourite topic of discussion amongst monarchs, presidents and dictators, ranking is featuring more and more in the ideals of the young and upwardly mobile. It is an unfortunate consequence of our civilizations history that ranking is rarely given rational consideration by those politicaly minded individuals living in the past, who are likely to form a major stronghold in the inevitable battle for hearts and minds. Though I would rather be in bed I will now examine the primary causes of ranking.

Social Factors

Society begins and ends with ranking. When Lance Bandaner said 'twelve times I've traversed the ocean of youthful ambition but society still collects my foot prints' [1] he shead new light on ranking, allowing man to take it by the hand and understand its momentum. More a melody to societies dysfunctions than a parody of the self, ranking smells of success.

Our post-literate society, more than ever before, relies upon ranking. To put it simply, people like ranking.

Economic Factors

The preceding section may have shed some light on society but to really understand man you must know how he spends his money. We will begin by looking at the Spanish-Armada model. For those of you unfamiliar with this model it is derived from the Three-Amigos model but with greater emphasis on the outlying gross national product. National
Debt

 ranking


How do we explain these clear trends? Obviously the national debt plays in increasingly important role in the market economy. What it all comes down to is money. Capitalists love ranking.

Political Factors

Much of the writings of historians display the conquests of the most powerful nations over less powerful ones. Comparing the general view of politics held by the poor of the west with those of the east can be like comparing ranking and ones own image of themselves.

We cannot talk of ranking and politics without remembering the words of a legend in their own life time, Augstin Bootlegger 'Taking a walk across hot coals will inevitably hurt your feet.' [2] I argue that his insight into ranking provided the inspiration for these great words. If our political system can be seen as a cake, then ranking makes a good case for being the icing.

Why did ranking cross the road? - To get to the other side! Just my little joke, but lets hope that ranking doesn't inspire similar hilarity in the next elections.
Conclusion

We can conclude that the ranking must not be allowed to get in the way of the bigger question: why are we here? Putting this aside its of great importance. It replenishes the self, provides financial security and is always fashionably late.

I shall give the final word to star Nicole Malkovitch: 'You win some, you loose some, but ranking wins most often.' [3]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Lance Bandaner - Adventurous Spirit - 1993 See-Saw Publishing

[2] Bootlegger - Take It! - 1961 Viva Books

[3] Smashing Hits - Issue 224 - Jazz Media

Oh boy I love this randon eassy generator

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I read every rating/critique topic with avid interest because, it seems the only thing we can all agree to concerning this is to disagree!  It also gives me an inside on how specific people tend to vote/rank.  For instance, I know I'll never see Matt comment on my tunes cause it's not his listening thing.  But should I sub something that tickles his fancy, his critique will be straightforward and honest!  Matt is NOT a fluffer.  Not that fluff is a bad thing (sorry, Matt)!  It all depends on what you expect from the site.

Perhaps the score of 10, with respect to what the actual numerical definition is...Perfect Performance...appears to be given quite freely.  But then, a perfect performance to me (with no musical training or talent) would be an above average listen to someone else.  I imagine I'd be excited with a 0 or a 1...at least someone was listening!  LOL  I sing because I enjoy it, not because I'm any good at it.  And all I hope for is that someone that listens can hear in my singing my enjoyment of it.  It's an emotional release for me...just as listening is an emotional release for me.  

I, too, used to rank (used to being the key word) but since the "Rankings War" started, I now only comment.  After all, with no musical degree/training and no talent, I felt I could only comment on how/why I liked a tune.  I figure if folks don't want to hear what I have to say, they will email me and tell me to quit commenting.  Won't stop me from listening 'cause I truly love my tunes.

Hmmm....I haven't added anything to this topic...perhaps I should delete my rambling.   Naaaah, I have a couple of pennies in my pocket!!  LOL

Keep singing 'til it's not fun anymore!!

_________________
If you can't have fun...why bother?

I do get a little bugged if I get ranking under 9, especially if it's one I like....but what really bugs me is having NO ranking or not very many comments.  I like to hear feedback!!

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

I would give the "10" only to someones work after listening to it several times, and being confident there is absolutely no room for improvement. That's not an easy conclusion to come to incidently. One person (again IMHO) had what I'd consider to be two consecutive 10's within the same week, and I had to ask a respected friend and musician for his opinion on my own judgement.  I was curious as to whether or not the person was "that good", or perhaps I wasn't listening with a discerning ear.

A "10" is something *I* believe is 100%. Personally I don't believe the perfect score means much when it's handed out liberally.  Naturally it's a nice reward, yet let's be realistic about something here.  If your work is actually a 7 or 8, isn't being given the actual rank you deserve, and a conscientious well thought out critique the best "pet on the back" a person can give you ? Assuming the answer to this is "no", do you really want a critique at all ?

Receiving 9's and 10's can become habit forming, yet if receiving a lower rank than "8" or "9" upsets a person, again, should the person be asking for a critique to begin with ?  I think I've heard what *I* would consider between 5 & 10 actual "10's" in Singer's Showcase. In the case of roughly 1/2 of these "10's", I thought the individual performing the cover outperformed the actual artist who's material they were covering.

Honesty doesn't have to preclude tact,  and when I ask a person for their opinion, often I don't like the tactfully presented candor I hear, yet I grow (although slowly) from these (what feels at the time to be) rude awakenings, or constructive opinions.
As for improving in a craft I love,  it's the people that had the guts to tell me "that performance was around a 4 or 5", that I think fondly of in retrospect.  They are the people who helped me get to be an "8" tops in a skill.  I'm just not gifted enough to be one of the few 9's or 10's in anything I do.. Yet when I achieve an honest "8", it feels good.  In reality, there are many that can't even achieve the 8 rank ever when performing.

I don't get UPSET about getting less than a 9, just a little bugged, a slight, passing irritation I do appreciate ANY feedback...like I said, it's not having people say anything, or getting NO rank that really annoys me...it's kind of frustrating when you have, like, 26 views and then only three people said anything and you have no rank.

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

you KNOW *I* won't argue that one with you, Matt... but I think the real complaint here, is when folks come in and say 'Great Job!!' then rank low with no explanation. That irks me too. =p

Well Peter, I wouldn't say you're 'in trouble'... and I would encourage you to go ahead and rank if you feel comfortable doing so. I think the primary thing to consider, is that if you feel inclined to rank and give less than a perfect score, it's best to give some idea of what's lacking in the song. Doesn't have to be a professional, in-depth critique... but just saying 'i didn't feel there was enough emotion' or even if you honestly say 'something was lacking, but I'm not sure what', it's better than just ranking the song down with no explanation.

Personally, I would also prefer folks say what they gave me if they rank my songs, since I return the favor when I rank songs. I won't be angry at people if they don't do that, but I prefer they do.

I'm grateful when I get a 9.

When people are being relatively honest, it's extremely difficult to get a 9. That means 'almost perfect'. To me, that means only tiny little mistakes. If something is glaringly wrong with a submission, even if it's just one thing, like being mostly off-pitch... expecting a 9 is unrealistic.

I don't mind getting less than a 10, but I do get irritated when people don't give me an idea what was lacking, or give an ridiculously low rank for some small thing. Even then though, I generally take it in stride and move on (although sometimes my 'champion' rides to battle for me).

I've read everything here and thought about it for a while and here are my conclusions.

The ranking system is not used by anyone according to the descriptions for each level of rank. Like I've never ever ranked anyone less than an 8, an 8 being not bad but here are some things I noticed about your song.

I've heard a few not so good songs on here, but no one is going to leave a rank of 1 or 2, or 5 or 6 even. I know I won't. I'll explain in a bit.

I just think its human nature to exaggerate beyond definition. For example, if the posted speed limit is 60, most will be going 70 or more. Go 60 and you'll get rear ended, right? Yet by definition that is the speed limit. Definition is not reality! So with the ranking system, its just natural to give a 10 if the song hits you right and is a pleaure to listen to. A 9 means you liked it but it wasn't perfect, for whatever reason but still a good, decent song. Now an 8 means hey something waz wrong enough and you did (or you should) mention to the subber what you thought. Below that is just not practical, I mean, when waz the last time you saw a song with a rank of 7 or less. I've never seen one and I've been here since last November. Check the top 100 ranked songs there's a couple 7's, or 8's, that's it, 95% vast majority is above that. . Its our nature to rank with the higher numbers. If anything, 99% of us are not using the ranking system as its defined. If this ranking system waz working as defined and people used it as defined there would be 1's, 2's, 3's, etc.

So how do those who would fall into a lower rank level ever find out about anything? Answer is mostly they don't by this ranking system, or by the criticism system. I think this ranking system as defined is almost anti-human. Again its just human nature to be mostly good to each other, so if a song is no good, no one is  going to leave a comment "hey, your singing is really not that good, you should take singing lessons" and rank them a 2. And with this system, you need 3 or more to see the rank, which makes is just impossible to ever see a low rank on a song. I mean nothing is 100%, so you might get one person to leave a low rank, but never 3 or more.

So the way that subber of the not so good song finds out anything is the lack of comments on the song, simple as that. You sub a song and get 1 reply (nobody ever ever gets 0 replies, its our good nature) and thats the criticism, silence speaks loud, and the subber can alwayz figure out what's wrong, its not rocket science once they see the lack of comments.

I know this is true and its not a click or popularity contest cause even the best singers who may have 20 or more comments on each of their songs will have one occasionally that's way less. No one sings great all the time.

Another point is this is a community of singers, and as such we are here to be heard. For most of us, we post and hope others will like what we posted. Now if you only post, and never listen to anyone else, you will not get as many comments cause your priveledge to post also requires that you listen to other who post. If no one listens to anyone, then we would all have zero comments. But just cause you listen to someone, that doesn't oblige them to listen to you. There are quite a few singers here I listen to who never comment on my songs, but I listen anyway cause I like what I hear. Mostly when someone comments on your song, their own material will be to your  liking cause of similar tastes in music, so they will comment on your song.  Some feel obliged to listen to others that commented on their song, but for the most part we comment on songs and singers we like, and that's how it  should be.

Also when you are listening to others and commenting you are advertising yourself. Its that simple, but your comment should be about the song you've listened to, not "hey great tune, and I have one I just posted to so come over and listen to it will ya!" That's not right, this is not TFT. You should be listening to others cause you want to, not just for the purpose of trying to draw attention to your own subs.

So, I think the ranking system should be changed. Get rid of the 10, 9, 8 thing and sub with something simpler like 1,2 , 3.   The current  system seems backwards from how most everything else works, you know, the best song is number 1, not number 10! In sports the best team is in 1'st place, not 10th,  etc.. So the highest ranked songs should be num 1!


****1 (I liked that one to the max, number one hit in my book),

****2 really good, enjoyed (but didn't knock my socks off yet OK to listen to, maybe tweek this or that, maybe not, still enjoyed the song) and

****3 (ok here's a thing or two I noticed, and its your duty to say something if you're going to rank at this level, else don't leave a comment) Ranking at this level is not a given right, you are responsible to state your reasons for doing so if you are going to rank, else don't leave a comment.

Well, having said that now I feel better.....

Russ

Russ..........I couldn't have said it better!!!   I agree with everything you said.

To add to what you just said....one of my pet peeves is people who don't respond their comments.  I think if someone is taking the time to listen to your sub and commenting the least you can do is say "Thank you" or something.  I listen to a lot of people's subs that don't listen to mine and I don't have a problem with that but I do find it irritating when they don't respond to a comment that I've left on theirs.  This doesn't stop me from listening to them again but it does get under my skin.

Just another  :2cents:

_________________
SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

Hi everyone You know I hardly get to comment on the forum but I had some time today to do so. You know this is not the first time this subject has risen. I did comment about this the last time and I think we should ask Webguru to let us see the ranking with the comments like we used to so that way we would not have this problem. I myself could care less about the ranking because a rank is just a number to me a honest comment is more important then a rank cause words are more informative then a number that is why I only comment most of the time or I would say what am ranking and why am rankin that way. But anyways this are my thoughts on this suject. Let's just have fun singing our hearts out and enjoy listening to each other that is why we are here for wave: