Karaoke Forums

Well the submission in question has been deleted, either by administration or the member himself. I do not want to elevate this matter by calling for a boycott, or seeking any kind of retribution, but I did think it was important to bring this matter to light, especially since this is the first time anything like this has happened to me.  I think the vast majority of members realize that when they sub in C,  they should be prepared to accept all feedback, wether it be good or bad.  Plain and simple, there is no excuse for this type of behavior. Also, this guy should realize that I had plenty of good things to say as well, and I worded the critique in a polite and dignified manner.  This will not sway me from my normal routine, I will not hesitate to critique this member again, good or bad.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Nathan,

     The song/event we have been discussing was deleted around this time last night actually,  not long after I responded to your original post.  Likely only deleted to make room for more submissions, and perhaps for no other reason.

     If it's any consolation Nathan, even though only a handful commented in this thread, your thread has had loads of views within a very short time period. 33 people have glanced over this. (you can view the stats of each thread on the grey bar above the original post, top right side)  Clicking on the eye within that bar shows individuals who have been here (like me about 1,000,000 times ).  

     You've shared this info with others, and  likely done a few others a favor too  :)

Hey Nathan,
I really gave up on critic cause I critiqued this person one time and I waz right and yet the person decided to critic my latest song at that time and it waz just for fun as all mine are, and they were wrong in their critic.  Tried again with the same person, and went the max on diplomacy, and they were "I don't agree" in their reply. Then another comment came inafter mine referenceing mine as true, and the subber still didn't want to accept it. Its really goofy if you ask me, this critic thing. Just rate the song, no critic, that makes sense to me, that should be a selection..to just rate a song with no comment (and no critic ever).

Russ

the critique option is what the showcase was initially designed for. If a subber doesn't want an honest opinion, then they should now only put it in "J" for "Just for FUN".

"C" for CRITIQUE again just isn't rocket science. you're asking someone else to give you their OPINION on the performance. A subber likewise has the right to their opinion... and can tell you "I don't agree", and you guys should leave it at that.

to sit here and harbor resentment and this tit for tat b.s. is just silly, childish, and way beyond hope.

To me, once someone abuses this sytem, then the powers that be should be notified. It's those types of individuals that ruin the system.

Nathan, I'm sorry you got such a rude reply.   I have noticed a couple of people being kind of snide in their replies to honest crticism, and I guess we can just put it down to those people do not agree what the C and J are for.

This person is just a jerk, it sounds like, so you shouldn't give him another thought.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Haven't got too many insulting replies. A little chilly on a few where I commented on pitch or whatever. Let's be grown up. A 'C" means give me some useful criticism. You don't sing well is not useful. Because it is kinda saying, well hang it up mate you suck and I don't think I have ever heard (I still may find one) a singer who can't improve if they work on it.

Like in all that Jazz. he said I can't make you a great dancer, but I can make you a good dancer (after a romp in the hay).

I would say that a more common reaction I have gotten (but fairly rarely) was that user would avoid my subs like the plague in the future. I have even nicely critiqued a few once pretty friendly people and now it is the "big chill." It is human nature and after all, the sheer volume of songs is pretty much anymore to even comment. I tried, tried today to comment on all the subs for just today, and I spent hours, really and still couldn't make it.

Remember as my gay cousin used to say, there is always gonna be one person who can't take it and has a "hissy fit" or gets "their panties in a bunch." when someone - and Cham is pretty decent about this (noting thread starter comment) even on the warbling turkeys (I didn't say that really I didn't) he will kindly and tactifully suggest some improvements.

I wasn't born a singer. And what little I can do, has taken of work over decades. I must admit I try to submit near perfect subs when I go for a C thing, the best I can do.

There is one phenomena that you have to live with. And that is that when you critique another singer, one of their first impulses is to go to your subs and check out how good you are. If you are passable or very good, they will less inclined to jump you as badly. If they feel (wrongly or rightly) your not as good as they are or worse, then it could get ugly.

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Personally I don't really mind if somebody leaves an unflattering comment, even if it isn't constructive, as long as it is honest.  If the reaction on hearing my sub is, "oooh, that really needs a lot of work," but can't articulate why, I'd rather they just say it needs work rather than not comment at all.  I do think it's appropriate to critique just that particular submission rather than the singer in general.  In other words, "this submission is awful" isn't as nasty as "you are awful."

But that's easy for me to say since I haven't submitted anything since last year.

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Reward: nine yen in drawer.

Gday folks...just thought I would add my little two cents worth...Nathan you where right to be angry......I have had a few not so nice critiques...but hey I am ok with it now..but at first it was tough...when you think you have done a great job and then someone comes along and say hey you suck big time..well it does kinda get your skin crawling...someone put a comment on one of my lastest songs..with one word  ...nice!! ...how do you take this critique... well after his visit my rank went down from a 9 to a 8.1 which I really dont mind either..but hey if its nice why the low rank...I would have liked an explaination...but I just thanked him for listening....
The other thing that gets on my nerves is ...WHY do people critique your sound and mixing and mark you down because of it...come on people we are all not pros here...we can only work with what we have...my opinion only, is that to criitique a person is to critique the singing not there equipment...if we keep ranking there sound and how they mix it...where does the Melody come into it...I always get told to much reverb..not enough reverb...get rid of the reverb when I havent used any...try and sing this from a deeper place ?? I have no clue what they are on about...I just read and thank them nicely...
Thank you for reading this..I am not sure if I have said what I mean...but I try..
cheers Melodie  :wave:  :wave: [/size]

Yesterday that was one sub where I really liked the voice, and even the song, but there were a few tech glitches. I gave the sub a 10 anyway because really mixing and recording your voice is a learning experience. That is not to say, I won't go into long winded detail on a comment about the mixing if I can't hear the person's voice, or if the quality is SO BAD, there was one sub with a horrible click every few seconds and one they didn't use a regular mike or headset and it was very difficult to hear the quality of the voice.

In the 50s and 60s especially, some of us, knew a time of echo and reverb. A lot of reverb. My original Fender twin which I played at the Fillmore in 1969 or so had some of the best reverb around for a guitar. And many great classic rock singers including Jim Morrison land the Doors liked the Bat Cave sound. Later singers like Suzanne Vegas began to double track and singer over herself to get this broad voice sound with almost no echo at all.

It is a fine art on some records to tweak the voice phase wise or whatever and you can take an average singer and make them sounnd like Phil Collins.  So, I have had people zap my rating over the reverb, echo, or voice double thing on a song. Both Seby and I have agonized over a sub on how "wet" to make the echo. Syber will not use echo but only reverb.

However, we do have pro karoake DJs on here. And I think it is just their nature to listen to how good the mix is and to include it in their rating of the song.

This is just a personal opinion, but I think we do need a techie critical option where you can comment on the mixing without rating. I sometimes will do that on a C, where there are a bunch of mixing issues and I don't want to blast a person's rating from a 10 to an 8 something while making some euphemistic comment llike "nice sub" and then rating it dismally.

Both Syber and I have been through the wringer for our campaigns concerning this. Sometimes it is like the child porn versus free speech issue. Yea, everyone, has a right to rate a song subjectively, and yet I think if you are going to really blast someone's sub, which I have never done in my history here, then your comment should match the dismal (although some will say fair as per the description of each rating level) rating of a 6 or 7.

Everyone is different. I kinda have this thing about not inflicting major pain on other people in life. And since in high school as a geek of sort, I was subjected to quite a bit of hazing on the bus and by the "in crowd", which I was not, despite being fairly musically literate, it's still Karoke folks, and not everyone lives on the computer or is subbing dozens of songs ever few weeks, and we need to, at least I do give the newbies a chance to swim around in the shallow end for a few subs.

Although some us are pros to the extent we perform outside of the Karaoke format, not everyone is here to become a pro and may sub things which are basically JFF, yet enter the 'C' world without realizing it can be painful.

I think the pain is when you sub a song and your reality concerning your own voice and how jazzed you are about your song does not match the reception you get.  And in real life we have some snapping turtles.

Okay.. early morning rant is almost over. I do not think there should be a place for "meanies" on this site. Attacking someone personally, or their sub, ruins what I believe is the philosophy behind this website. Fun. I commend the moderators, especially Phil for drawing the line when things get nasty.

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

When you comment on a song, and forget to select the rating, could this be what happened. Just curious, because I don't know.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

Everybody has a different philosophy on this "rating must approximate the comments given" thing.  See, to me if I say "This is a good submission," and that's all I say, then the rating I would be giving is a 7, because the rating system says that a 7="good."  I know some people think of a 7 as a low rating.  I don't.

If someone gives them what they feel is a low rating, some people want an explanation.  Once they get it they're generally not happy with that either.  There's no way to do it that pleases everybody.  As a commenter I just accept that.  Look, if you don't agree with my assessment of your sub, that's fine, I'm just telling you my opinion.  Maybe I'm way off base.  It's just a few comments and rating on a website, not a professional critique.

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Reward: nine yen in drawer.

Hi Everybody.....another  :2cents: being put in...

I've been on here about 2 months now and it didn't take me long to find out that there are some people that really take this ranking to heart.   I guess I still don't get it.   When I first came on, I just listened for a couple of days and noticed the ranking was as follows:

10 - Perfect Performance
9 - Near Perfection
8 - Very Good
7 - Good
6 - Above Average
5 - Average
4 - Less Than Average
3 - Poor
2 - Barely Listenable
1 - OH MY GOD!
Prefer Not To Rank

As I listened to everyone...I realized that there are some dang good singers on here and decided to sub a couple of songs before buying a membership....just to test the water.   But my thought was....okay..if I can at least get a 6 or better....I'll join.  I thought if I could get at least a 6 then people liked it.   If I was out somewhere and was told I was "above average", "Good" or "Very Good"...I would take that as a compliment.   Doesn't seem to be the case here.   If people here get less than a "10" their feelings are hurt.   And I just don't understand it.

As for the critique issue.......that hasn't turned out like I thought it would either.  I tried to do a couple of critiques in the beginning but unfortuanately found that people didn't really like it.  I normally always put my subs up for critique and ranking.  I will have to admit that I respect some people's constructive criticism better than others and the ones I do respect the most are the ones who I believe are the best singers on here.  So to get constructive critisism from them is a blessing.  I can learn from them.  Plus I don't always agree with someone's critique of another singer.  I have put songs up that I was really proud of and find out that they are really not that good and then on the other hand have put some up that I thought ya'll were going to murder me on and got very nice rankings on them.  

But all in all..........Yes, I need improvement.....but singing makes me feel good and to share it makes it all better.  I'm comfortable with what little talent I have and yes....maybe I will get better by taking some of the advice given so I'm not going to let a 7 or 8 ranking make me feel like I"ve hit rock bottom.  When I get the "1" and "2".........then I'll stop subbing.   If someone says on my sub.....that was good.......then I kind of expect that person probably ranked me a 7 or above.  Hey....I'll take "Good"!  It sure beats...."You Suck!"  Would I like to have all "10's"?   You bet!  But when I do..........I'm going to start getting paid for it!  LOL

I think it's a sticky situation and sometimes I'm not sure what to do when I listen to one up for critique and I really hear some stuff going on with it.  I catch myself alot of times not ranking or even commenting. Most of the time....I try to find something positive to say and just leave the other alone.  I know I shouldn't do that but I really don't want to hurt someone's feelings and I see alot of people's feelings getting hurt.  You can tell by the way they answer the comment.  I have made it a point though not to say anything in my comments that I don't mean.  If I say it's good then I really think it is.  

Oh well........I'm babbling..........I'll shut up now and go sing!  
 :dancin:  :dancin:  :dancin:  :dancin:  :dancin:  :dancin:

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SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

In the above rating system, it would be better to deliniate between 6 & 7 more decisively. If you state "6" as being above average, certainly everything that is rated 6 or better is "good".  "Above average" to me means "good" as opposed to "fair" which is often used synonymously with average. I likely wouldn't use a term as ambiguous as "good" at all.  In the cases of these ratings "good" becomes a nebulous term IMHO.

I thought the ranking system was already defined. Isn't there a description as to what the 1-10 calibrations designate someplace here ?  I recall seeing a description someplace that takes much of this "guess work" out've this process someplace within KS.

I haven't seen a definition of the ranking system but that doesn't mean there isn't one.   The above is the defs given in the drop down box when you rank someone.  I thought they were pretty cut and dried but apparently not.  

Oh well...........how do you ever figure all this stuff out?

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SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

, ok, I guess I didn't do the quote thing right, help me, .

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

ROFL...after you press the quote button...and the window shows up...just type UNDER the qoute...then hit reply! you must have hit reply right after...

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Hi CJ, yeah the forum has some sort of profanity subroutine that automatically converts profane words into something less offensive. Hey, maybe that's the solution to this problem in the Singer's Showcase section - a special critique subroutine so if you comment something like...

"Wow, you should consider having your vocal chords removed for the benefit of mankind!"

The website would automatically covert your critique to:

"Wow, great sub! If they ever figure out how to clone vocal chords, I'll take the first set available!"

Or if the guy your critiquing leaves a really rude reply like:

"Why you #$@#%@, I've @$@! more valuable opinions in my bathroom after eating a plate of beans!"

BUT THE WEBSITE would fix that with...

"Peace and good cheer to you my fine fellow singer! Thank you for your valuable input which I shall cherish always especially when eating beans??!" (hey, you can't expect these artificial intelligence subroutines to get it right every time!)

Anyway, CJ, the guy definitely shouldn't have used profanity in his reply to you and I think I would have definitely dropped a PM to the webmaster about that and then probably just stayed out of the guy's subs after that.

This place is just too great to let some %@%!$%$@^# with a %@#%@##$# attitude suck the fun out of it.

Hey, it's almost the weekend again! Have a great one!