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I am really disturbed by a reply I recieved recently on a critique I had given.  I have always tried to be fair to everyone I listen to, and I am always courteous and have never insulted or berated anyone who I have commented on.  Also, when I have been given a suggestion on something I could improve on , I have always taken it in stride.  I recently commented on a sub from someone who primarily sings country songs, which I tend to leave alone unless something really stands out because I don't know much about the genre.  This, however, was more of a pop-ballad, which I think is a genre I can offer advice on, my comments were as follows:


 chamjam: This was really nice, a real emotional song and you pulled that part of well, as far as critique, I think this is kind of a loose song, and I did hear your pitch go flat a few times, but I think the original isn't much different in that respect, also, on the "me" your kind of splitting it into two words, "me-hee", which is maybe just part of your vocal style, but to me it doesn't really make a good fit, just a couple things but overall this was really good.


 And this would be the response I got in return, and keep in mind, this is a grown man saying these things:

  MichaelDane:  I don't think you can sing fer' **** and your critic' don't mean a damn thing yah' wanna be... u crack me up..- YeHaW-!

   To me, this is not only a display of total disrespect to myself, as well as everyone who submits on SS, but a shining example of a grown man who has let his limited intelligence and child-like vocabulary get the best of him.


   Let it be known, I will not lie on a critique sub just to stroke someones ego, I believe there is plenty of that to go around already, and it is beyond me how a grown adult can resort to such elementary tactics in a feeble attempt to belittle someone who was just offering advice, and something else I took notice of, is that out of 7 comments, mine was the only one he replied to, which should let everyone know how much this person really values your comments.  I am hoping that administration will do something about this, it's people like this that ruin it for everyone.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Nathan,

  I had to glance at three of this individuals subs before I found the Joe Cocker song you are speaking of.
  For whatever it might be worth, you are the ONLY person this goofball has bothered to respond to.  He's acknowledged none of the individuals so-far, that took the time to comment on his material. As to whether he did prior to the Joe Cocker song, I don't know.
  I also wanted to make sure that he actually placed his song in the "Critique" category. I checked, and it can clearly be seen that he did.
  If it's any consolation, I too would feel annoyed over the stupid, immature retort he used in response to your honest, well meaning critique. He did ask for critiques, and you were honest enough to give him one. I also DO NOT believe he means a word of what he stated.  Apparently another KS blowhole with an inflated self image.
 
  You might wish to change your critique.  You always have that option  I can think of many interesting comments you can leave now.  There's no reason that at this point you shouldn't leave a comment such as..

 "I hoped to leave constructive criticism, yet it's evident to me now that.....(fill in the last part as you wish)"

  In an interesting world... EVERYONE would start critiquing him now


                                                               Good luck

 (oh yeah        YEEHAW    )

Hi CJ,

First off, I've listened to your subs and I can testify first hand that you can, indeed, sing for (@$%&#!) and, in fact, I'll even go so far as to say you can sing for @^%@^$# and on some of your better subs have even sung for %*#(#^%##!  

Who knows, CJ, maybe the guy was having a bad day. Maybe he was having one of those days when everybody at work and at home was picking on him for every little thing he did and by the time he read your comments it was just the "last straw." He might even have pressed that Submit reply button and then totally regretted what he said but, unfortunately, while the commenters can edit their comments the singers, as you know, can't edit their replies to the comments. Sure, it would be great if everyone was totally polite and understanding to everyone else all the time without fail but we're all human and we all fail at some time or another. I happen to think your critiques are very good (so stay the hell out of my subs alright?) and you probably were "right on" in whatever observations you made but WHAT IF that submitter had sung that song 50 times and spent 10 hours mixing it and he felt it was just the very BEST thing he'd ever subbed and then, on the very day everyone was picking on him, the last thing he needed to hear was that only thing he was feeling good about that day just wasn't so good afterall.

So what can we do when we run into a situation like this? Well, I guess if it was me, I'd probably just not bother to listen to his subs or offer any further critiques - unless maybe the guy apologized, explained that he was just having "one of those days" and invited me back to critique his other subs. And then, even if I thought the song was a "10," the first comment words off my keyboard would probably be "How could you sub this piece of crap? Don't you have any self-respect, man?.....JUST KIDDING" But that's just me being "me". (Jee and I kid like that with eachother all the time but, personally, I think Jee probably has a whole collection of whips and chains displayed around his computer, too.)

Hey, did you ever listen to my parody sub about Singer's Showcase:  Feeling Alright for SS Members ? If not, check it out - it might just make you smile over this situation but don't you dare critique it because everyone knows that your critiques aren't worth a $@@#(%^@#(*%&$#(^(%#$%^ - whatever that hell that is.  LOL  So just listen to it, give it a friggin' "10" and move on, okay?  LOL (EDIT: Wait a minute, I just remembered that you DID listen to that sub and I just checked and you called it "brilliant" - SEE, I told you that your critiques aren't worth a $@@#(%^@#(*%&$#(^(%#$%^ ) LOL (Thanks again for that critique by the way.)

Take it easy, my friend, the weekend's almost here - have a great one!

Assuming even this to be the case Chris.  This type person shouldn't submit in the "C" category.  It's the individuals responsibility to know their own boundaries, wants and needs.  If a critique such as Nathan's tipped him over the edge,  this isn't a person that really wants critiques.  The fact of the matter is, I've since listened to this individuals submissions, and he genuinely could benefit from paying closer attention to trying to match certain pitches he's intending to hit.


When a person submits in the Critique category,  there's a tacit understand that they are agreeing and willing to accept  constructive criticism on their submitted work.  There's also an understanding that if they can't handle criticism as light as Nathans was they SHOULD NOT post in the "C" category...


I get an image of a person taking kids to a petting zoo, with a sign reading, "Petting animals permitted". A kid reaches to pet a lamb, and the lamb bites off a finger on the kids hand.  The zookeeper than turns the sign around, and on the back it reads  "Unless the animals are in a bad mood". Zookeeper says to the person, you see ?  You didn't really read the sign.

This person agreed to allow, and accept critiques.  He has a responsibility to accept critiques, in a reasonable manner, afterall, by posting in "C" he's asked for critiques.    The way MichaelDane responded to Nathan was not reasonable.  That degree of lashing out, and defensive behaviour was entirely uncalled for.

As I see it Chris and Nathan the problem goes further than just this episode too.  Individuals reacting such as this person did, in going so far as to actually flame a person who gives them a conscientious critique, makes others defensive, and untrusting of members asking for critiques. Anyone truly wanting a critique would likely wish for a talented musician such as Nathan to provide them with input, and critique.  

Hopefully Nathan will view this as just one isolated episode, and others won't lose out as a result of him critiquing less as a result of this type of foolish response.

Hi Steve,

I'm a bit perplexed by your "this type of person" shouldn't submit in the "C" category statement. Are you saying that you've never had a bad day or maybe never over-reacted to situation that you normally would never have over-reacted to due to stress? I have a habit of placing myself in other people's shoes and giving people the benefit of the doubt when they do something that may tick me off. If someone cuts me off in traffic I don't say "this type of person shouldn't be driving a car" but am more inclined to say "we all make mistakes, he probably just didn't see me or he forgot to check his sideview mirror, no harm done."  A few weeks ago I had my car parked in a lot and an announcement was made in the place of business that someone had backed into a parked car. Sure enough it was my parked car. I went outside, found my car damaged ($1,500 worth), asked what happened and the driver said he backed out of a space too fast and into my car. I didn't get mad, I just said "Hey, accident's happen" and the insurance took care of it all including the rental car I needed. But I didn't say "this type of person who backed out of his parking space too fast" shouldn't be parking his car in public lots.

Look, I don't know this guy that upset CJ and I'm not even sure I've ever listened to any of his subs but everyone deserves a chance to be "understood" and maybe the guy was having a bad day or maybe the guy has been having a bad year, but I don't see him as a "this type of person" but just a person who maybe didn't handle criticism well in this one particular situation but that doesn't mean that he won't handle criticism better the next time or that he was incapable of learning from the mistake he made with CJ so that he benefits from future criticism. We all make mistakes - what ultimately determines our character is what lessons we draw from those mistakes to make us better people.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

Well CD, I think we all work hard on our songs, and I think we all have bad days, but when it's all said and done, we are still responsible for our own actions. It should be acknowledged that within this venue, and the internet as a whole for that matter, that you are afforded the luxury of being able to think before you type.  These comments are not the result of someone having a bad day, but a senseless tantrum from a self-absorbed crybaby who cannot tolerate the fact that someone didn't think his submission was perfect, and in my opinion, it was not.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Chris (regarding my feelings on this)


There are distinct differences when viewing "accidental behaviour" where a person backs into your car given certain visibility/medical /traffic conditions vs. the accident generated from a persons inability to control their road-rage/anxiety while behind the wheel, passing you on the left when not permitted,  and causing devastation to oncoming vehicles in the other lane. Nathan stated exactly what I was about to say. We all have bad days, we all have the right to :feel: like growling at everyone that crosses our path. Yet as kids, we learn that these are OUR problems, and such lousy moods don't grant individuals license to become abusive towards others, even though it feels as if others might make great scapegoats.  Displacing anger, and acting abusively towards another IS NOT "accidental" behaviour, and naturally, faceless people within an internet venue would often make great scapegoats.  As competent adults we are responsible for our actions.  Even when we impulsively act, to tell the court you accidently kicked the cop in the testicles because he asked you to take a sobriety test "at a bad time" might not help your case.

we are also responsible for knowing that there are times we probably shouldn't be attempting to interrelate with others.  Between the time this individual lashed out targeting Nathan, to the time Nathan had sent his original post on this thread there was nothing impulsive about this persons action. No indication that an apology was coming.

So in this particular instance Chris, we disagree.  

If I post in "C", *I* am the one responsible for knowing that I can or can't handle criticism . If there are times I can't deal with it, since others aren't telepathic, it's also MY responsibility to cope with that aspect by either not responding to a person who gave me a critique on such a day, not reading comments on such a day, or just not posting for "Critique" at all.

If they have the C for CRITIQUE checked, then you have the right like Cham did to comment on it.

That user gave a very good critique. it was honest, caring, sensitive, and gave helpful advice.

A person can either accept the critique for what it is, or not. But by PUTTING THE SONG IN THE "C" category, you are asking someone to give you an honest opinion. If you don't want that, then use the "J" for JUST FOR FUN.

It's not rocket science, higher math or even courtesy. It's just common sense.

This person that flamed the other should be given a big time warning, and given a wide berth for awhile. See how he likes it if nobody comments on his songs! Sure, we'd be just rude for doing that, but does that user have the right to flame someone, especially when the Terms Of Service to this site flat out say such an offense can get you banned?

Give me a break!

If someone flames you, email either Phill or the Admin. Contact the site. It doesn't take a genius to realize this person crossed the line!

Basically, I'm just the type of person that tries to find a peaceful resolution to a disagreement and while I'd probably tend to go back to the person's song and edit/ammend my critique which something like: "I apologize that my critique upset you so much. When someone requests "Comment/Critiques" then I assume the person wants my honest opinion and so I give it. It's not meant to offend, just to honor the person's request for a critique."  And then I probably just would not visit anymore of their subs. I might drop a PM to the board administrator with a copy of my comment and their response, especially if it contained actual profanity rather then just symbols like #$@%@# and that way if this person actually demonstrates a pattern of abusiveness with other comments to other people then eventually the administrator will want to take some serious action in removing the person from the board. But, honestly, I'm just as much inclined to send the PM the information along with the comment that "Hey, the person might just have been having a bad hair day."

But if the person had a pattern of abusiveness then the adminstrator will have more information then I do and will most likely take the appropriate steps to correct the user's attitude.

Yeah, we all have to take responsibility for what we do and face the consequence of our actions but, unfortunately, not everyone is capable of doing that. The right thing for the person to do would be to send a personal apology to CJ for their outburst or maybe even post a public apology here in this thread but not everyone is able to handle doing something like that. So in some cases we just have to "write off" the matter. Let the person know our true intentions were to help them not hurt their feelings and move on. Their response was probably the result of some mis-directed anger in the first place and so all they've done is added more baggage onto the self-issues they already have.

I really try to be more sensitive to where "the other guy" is coming from in a dispute and I know that's not usually the most common way of dealing with things like this but I'm just quicker to shrug things like this off and say "Oh well, the guys having a bad hair day...or the guy is just a dickhead, either way it's his problem not mine. Plenty of other singers here to listen to...."

Well, I've given more then my . CJ, you have a lot of good advise here and I'm sure you'll sort it all out in a positive way and to a positive out-come, whether internally within yourself or externally by the two of you "shaking hands"  :handshake: and getting past it all.

I'm sorry the guy said what he said. You really didn't deserve the reply you received from him and apologizing would be the right thing for him to do in the best possible world but as you know, unfortunately we don't live in the best possible world.  :no:

Have a great weekend guys!

(after reading all of the heartfelt commentary)

muahah....

MY TURN!!!!!

Guess who's going to critique our little obnoxious friend next?? No, I don't plan to say anything to deliberately goad his behaviour, but from what Nathan said, I won't have to.

Yeeeehawww!!! heheheheh

I think we should remember we are adults (most of us) here.  I think anyone who asks for scores or critiques should expect both positive and potentially some negative.  The problem as I see it, too many people are doing a "Paula Abdul".  I have listened to too many submissions that are plainly terrible or the song engineering is badly done.  Too many people gush for no reason.  I don't think we want to do a "Simon Cowell" on anyone as that would generate this kind of response to a critique.

I find a lot of people know the songs they sing but are using too many effects or maybe need to change an key.  I think it is also legitimate to advise someone that they are better at one style of music over another.  So if I ever take up singing Boy George instead of George Thorogood...please, please, please tell me to get my head read.

I guess the bottom line is be honest, upbeat and most of all gentle.  Helping someone improve is the goal of any advise given as feedback.  The singer shold always rememeber that.

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Terryoke
Krazy Kanuck Karaokeist

Karaoke is the only social disease that you can get in public and not get arrested.

Ah well, looks like I missed my chance! I can't find the song you're mentioning. Who was  it? Maybe their account got deleted.

heheh

I saw that submission also, but didn't comment. I have only made one comment here for a critique, and it wasn't a bad one, but the person pulled the sub after I wrote my critique.

Actually it was an overall good performance, the person went flat on one note. I figured it hurt feelings, so I have refrained from Critiquing since. I thought I was wrong for saying anything on the post, But I guess that is what we are supposed to do is be Honest.

It isn't often I will ask for Critique, because I haven't yet (after fooling with it for 2 months) gotten the Mic, compressor, and settings like I want them. Actually I am my own worst critic. But you guys Rock, I value any of you when I want an honest opinion.  

Gary

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

CD,  the actual reply did contain profanity, which I posted initially, but administration must have edited the post.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Seby, the member in question is named in my original post, and there were also some parts of his reply that were edited by administration, so it was much worse than what you actually see here.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

They should have pm'd you if they felt that strongly. I've learned about C subs....if you sub under C, you suck it up if you get critique. Or just do J's!

DUH!!!! I'm sorry... geez, in my excitement of finally getting back online (after several days of NO INTERNET), I overlooked the name. :p OK... now I know who it was.

Wow, worse than that?? holy smokes... man, I don't care if someone is having a bad day or just lost their best friend, I agree that nasty responses like that shouldn't be tolerated. Of course, some might argue 'where do we draw the line? Is disagreement 'nasty'?' etc, but I think it's pretty obvious. That person was completely over the line (and I can be fairly blunt in my critiques and sometimes even replies).

It's obvious they were just 'lashing out' at you, Nathan, and probably haven't even heard you sing... not that you need comforting, I'm sure you are comfortable enough with your talent to recognize such rubbish for what it is. :p

I treat comments like that the way I feel about if someone said that to you in your face.

In person, if someone had the cajones to say that, I'd knock them on their collective BUTTSKY!

Online, I'd do what I said I would do. Someone treats ME like that? They're getting reported, then I would go out of my way to tell the community about the user, and ask for a boycott of their material, until a formal apology was made.

There is NO place for rudeness! And ye reap what ye sow!

That really saddens me. I know this person travels alot for his job and doesn't always get to reply right away...but this is NO way for someone to reply to a C song. No wonder so many are hesitant to critique a song if that's the reaction you get. I'm bummed that you were answered this way. To be truthful, this is NOT how i see him. Bummer.

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