Karaoke Forums

Elderberries,
  Your post just said it all and I believe that is why so many people have a high respect for you.

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SAY IT WITH MUSIC!!!!

Aaaww, shucks, thank you Syber!!

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If you can't have fun...why bother?

Aw, and thank you Rita.

[font=andalus]Very well said EB! BALANCE most certainly IS the key when you are going to be one of those who critiques or offers advice.  I usually, as some people on here already know, advocate a system of critiquing that I like to call UP DOWN UP. (UDU)  In my opinion, it has come to be the be most balanced and "cushioning" way of dealing with critiques.

Just as it says, you always start with at least one positive comment.  Then you move on to your critique.  I suggest that you just pick around 2 things to comment on critique-wise.  Pick the two things which stood out the most.  I'll sometimes go into full and drawn out detail if someone asks for it, but for the most part, I stick to the two or maybe three things that stuck out the most.  You then END with a positive.  It's like a critique sandwhich between two slices of positivity.  That way the first thing they see and the last thing they see are the positive aspects, and it keeps everything in balance.

Another helpful thing that I've found most people like, is when you offer specifics.  It's hard to take someone seriously who says, "oh, you were out of tune in some places" or "it seems like you were off rhythmically in a couple spots"... A couple spots?  SOME places?  That is rarely helpful to anyone, and they may be less inclined to take you seriously or believe you if you are not able to provide them with anything but generalities.  I try to do that, although I'm guilty of being in a hurry and sometimes just being general.  But tell them.. On the first verse when you say "You needed me," "ME" was out of tune, or around 1:24 secs in the song, you were having trouble with the timing.  Specifics are always more helpful than generalizations if the person truly is wanting feedback.

THis is a list of some of the things I look for when I am in a critiquing mood...

Intonation -
Tone - (Does it fit the song, Is it too nasally?.. too harsh? Too Airy?)
Stylistic Nuances - (does what they are adding stylistically fit the song? Is there more they could add to make it "pop" more stylistically?)
Technique - (Do they sound like they are having breathing problems? Placement issues?  vibrato woes? ennunciation or tone production concerns?
Timing - Does the rhythmic content fit the music? Is there enough variation to make it interesting or is it square?
Emotional Content -
Recording - any technical things about the recording which I think may be helpful

But like I said, sometimes I just want to listen without thinkng like a vocal teacher, and so I will and may just say that I enjoyed it and what I enjoyed about it.  It just depends on my mood and how much time I have to devote to listening which hasn't been bupkiss lately....
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[quote="ChristopherD @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:25 pmBUT what if singers had the option to ask listeners to simply rank the song anonymously...you could be completely honest in your ranking without any concern about having someone come over to low-rank snipe one of your songs simply out of retribution. If you felt the song deserved a "3" (I think #3 is "Submissions from singing cats are not allowed.") then you could just go ahead give the song a 3 and move on. When the system gives the overall rank for the song and it comes out to be a 2 or 1 (I think #1 is "have you considered having your vocal chords replaced with those of a singing chimpanzee?") then that singer has got to get the "message" that they need to work a lot harder on that sub. So they would still benefit from the honest ranking more then in a commented rank where you feel like you've got to rank higher (give the song perhaps a 7) just so you can then give your feedback which wasn't really wanted while the rank was wanted and which may not be appreciated anyway.

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Now, I must clearly state this comment is not in reference to anyone who at one point ranked all my songs which much have taken a considerable amount of listening and I do appreciate anyone who listens to my subs. BUT I idea of anonymous raters is pretty scary. In fact, if you think we have sniper problems now, imagine the party a user could have in anonymous mode with a sniper one attack. Basically I don't think you could recover from such an escapade.

And of course it is always painful, when you are getting 10,10,10,10 and then suddenly the song is at 8.6. And you try to do the math - if I got like nine 10 ratings and the next rating droped me to 8.6 someone really didn't like the song. Or else, one on of my not nice days I was a bit too critical. But so far I have never really gone for blood on a song no matter how dismal it might have been. The days of fluff are passing though.

And you know, I agree, irregardless of what has been said, it can burst your bubble if you are sailing along and you truly feel you have put a sub which is pretty decent and the tougher sells on here have given you high marks and then you get a "pretty cool I liked that a lot" and your rating goes through the floor.

There are some good singers on here and there are some excellent singers on here. And recently I have given a number of honest 10s to some perfect subs. I honestly could not find anything wrong period even to critique.

Well, I still will take my chances most times with C subs. Because constructive criticism helps to make me a better musician, singer, and in touch with the real world.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Not as long winded as I generally am. That was a good post and I have a lot of respect for you as a singer. And I understand how some days you can deal with some negative stuff on a sub and other days I am not in the real space for it. I am totally guilty of trying to find something positive to say on a sub even if it isn't terrific. And sometimes I on a gut level enjoy a sub that isn't musically awesome, but there's just something about it or the emotion or the voice that is fun or cool that I like. So, in rating, sometimes it is based on, did I enjoy this. It should be fun on here, but the C zone is the danger zone and it's like putting it out there and saying was I... really good. And you have to psyche yourself up for the not necessarily what is always the truth, but people's personnal opinions on your singing.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Hi jvj,

I guess I don't find it that scary because when you think about those people who could have selected a "Anonymous Rank/No Comment" heading but, instead, chose the "Rank w/Comment" option, then they actually invited the honest critique of their sub and so you would think they'd be "above" sniping your sub because they wanted the critique and they got what they wanted. Now, I think if you were to go beyond just critiquing the sub and got downright rude and nasty then, yeah, you may have just invited some sniping either from the person whose song you critiqued or maybe even a "fan" or friend of that person who felt justified in "getting even" for possibly hurting the submitters feelings. So I think that being honest and tactful with constructive criticism is always important.

But as for leaving an "Anonymous Rank/No Comment" with a singer's sub then I suppose the people sniping you on those type subs would either be the kind who are holding some grudge against you from some previous comment and ranking you gave them or else they believed that somehow reducing your ranking on the song (if, for example, it was at 10) would somehow improve their ranking on the Highest Ranked Song charts but then we're really talking about some major low-lifes who would sink that low and I just don't think there are that many members here who really place that kind of importance on their rankings or on making that top 50 list to mess around like that. And, in reality, someone could even do that now by simply going back to a song and editing the comment and lowering the rank they had left for that singer's song earlier.

I mean, let's be honest, there are all sorts of ways somebody could "work the system" here to get great rankings all the time.  If all you had were 3 friends who were also members and you all made a pact that you'd always rank eachother's songs with a 10 then that gives you the 3 member ranks necessary to get the 10 and send your song to the high rank chart. I'm not sure if the song really needs the 5 comments that the chart says is necessary but I can almost guarantee you that if you song is showing at least 3 comments and your name is relatively familiar to the other members, you'll get the other 2 comments and even if all they say is "nice job" without a rank, your song still goes to the top.

So you see the entire ranking system is really too flawed to be taken all that seriously when the system can be "worked" so easily to give false rankings.

I enjoy the heck out of this place. It's fun chatting with all of you and we all have this common love of singing that makes me feel like I'm in a big "group hug" some days. I love to sing and so I sing and sometimes if I think I'm singing a song okay then I'll kick on the computer and do a recording and spend some time mixing it, etc. just 'cause it's a nice hobby thing to do but I really enjoy performing live the most because I love that interaction with the audience and watching their expressions as I do my best to "sell" the song I'm doing. Will I be the opening act for some major music headliner next week at the Hollywood Bowl or Madison Square Garden....yeah, absolutely....in my dreams  :thinkin:. On second thought - I doubt even my dreams could entertain that idea.  LOL

Hugs to you all,

Of course, you could extend that logic to life is too flawed to be taken seriously. I still take issue with the fact you cannot see what a person ranks you. Both Seby and I and some others I have noticed at times have indicated in our posts what we have ranked someone. Yes, it would get tedious or overwhealming to do this for every song. But I can kinda of shrug my shoulders and say well, the ranking thing is flawed and therefore like some just opt to not be involved.

I think the trait of being competitive and goal oriented can be very deeply rooted in some people. I live in a world where how much money I have, or how successful my business is has an immense effect on how I am treated by many people. There are the altruists who say money doesn't matter, while at the same time struggling to survive. Then there are those who say money does matter and hate those who have money. And then there are those who ideally, and they really may exist, have little money and don't care. This analogy extends to singing and rating.

Personally I am obsessed with being a famous rock and roll star. I had my taste of it before, standing and performing my own material in front of MANY very receptive people was like a drug. Performing is like a drug. And applause is like a drug. You can paint your pictures like my friend Bryan an award winning painter, and put them in the back room now, or feel that art is not art unless it is communicated to others.

So, one can compare a no rating here, to a performance in which a huge "NO CLAPPING" sign is put up. Only the difference is it is not a no clapping sign. It is a "NO BOOING" sign.  Because a large portion of comments on JFF are critiques. I mean if you couldn't say something positive which is a critique on a sub, then what could you post. But no. On JFFs are many time resounding critiques that are VERY postive.

So finally that brings me in my daily rant, to wrap this up with the old saying Kung Fu style "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."

SS and all the people here for Seb and I are part of our lives. And it is ironic. Because no matter who we are in our "other life" in here much of it is based on our singing. I don't want to be like my friend Tom one time. We went into this incredible tropical rain forest exhibit at a fair. There was a breathless waterfall, orchids and fragant flowers, and the hit in the face of the mist from the water and the high oxygen content made you almost euphoric. And he looked down and found
a rose bush and not only that grabbed it and got stuck in the thumb with a thorn.
And said "what is a damn rose bush doing in here. This is tropical."

I spent the entire day (such is my wierd nature) contemplating what had happened. And I thought for sure, in paradise, he would find if there were any thorns, even one, the one and get stuck by it.

So, I will continue to listen to people's subs. I will continue to feel some pretty cool feelings towards a lot of friends here and occasional grrrrrr at certain people for various reasons.

You have caught me in one of my deep thinker moods and I will say you can go into "Dust in the Wind" Kansas mode where nothing we say or do has meaning  or you can choose to experience the incredible euphoric highs and dismally depressive lows of life. When you sing your little heart out and someone says it is crummy, you can bleed, or you can like a game I wrote a game called WW3 which later became a movie, say the only way to win, is not to play the game.

Not for me. I want to play. I want to tour. I want to hear thousands either applaud and shriek with approval or hopefully not, boo me off the stage. I want the contrast.
But that's me. Put me with a bunch of golfers and I would be a karaoke golfer.  But maybe not. Maybe I'd click the C box anyway.

I think as long as no one gets brutal or personal then the system is okay. But I will still continue to strive for those 10s. It is my nature.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

I have not had a lot of  association with karaoke singing! Since coming here to SS, I have started helping a friend of mine, who does host karaoke shows, when I am not busy performing on stage.  I find it really fun! That is if I can handle the many terrible singers who get on stage thinking they are the next gift to the music world! I most often do my shows with a live band of 6 musicians and a few back up singers. There have been times when I have had to do a few shows without the band, and I have used some backing tracks along with  my guitar to sing with.  I must confess, nothing beats being on stage with a live band.  One thing I do know about people is that no one wants to be put down.  No matter who they are, people work hard on the songs they sub in here and it is easy to see how someone might get bent out of shape if they are ripped apart by some crtic that thinks their sub stinks!  There is another side to this also, there are some people who give critique and you have no idea who they are! There are several people in SS that to me, stand above the rest as singers and musicians.  I personally have a lot of respect for their opinion.  It is hard to have much respect for people you have never seen in SS and suddenly they drag you through the ringer while those you respect have had pretty decent things to say about your sub! Maybe you had a pretty decent score going there and suddenly, some new guy has ripped you up and your score has dropped from a 9.7 to an 8.9!  I can see something like that happening, and yeah, I  think if that happened to me, I might not be a real happy person about that! But then, I keep reminding myself that like I have heard someone else say, in here, it is just karaoke! I play with my band and sell enough cd's not to worry about it! Every time I do think about it, someone will tell me they heard one of my songs on the radio. Suddenly I can forget all about the rating thing in SS! Gee I have rambled enough to make everyone sick! Sorry!

First I must preface this with ironically I have never been a very social person, yet was pretty much thrown into total sociallity when I began to tour when I was younger. It is very difficult to be part of SS without being a social person to some extent. Yet, even though I love the people in the world (sometimes not llike, but that is a religious thing) my main focus when I sub a song is to do a good song. Sometimes just for fun, in which case, I do JFF.

Here are a few lessons I have learned about being popular in SS (and by the way I am not saying I am popular. I think people like my music and respect my talent, but I NEVER take this too personally. I have friends here, close ones, but for newbies I can tell you a few basic rules.

1) Don't expect people to comment on your subs if you do not comment on theirs. Since I am not comment hungry, when I make the huge rounds and comment on dozens of subs, it is not so people will come back and listen to mine. But, in the real world, people are more likely to give you a listen and comment if you play by the rules and give as well as get comments.

2) Become part of a clique. In the older days here, it was a lot more like this. Those were the extreme fluff days. You get a group of people who like a similiar genre and flluff each other blue. This is not to say some of the performances aren't kinda nice or deeply heart felt. That is to say, before the horror story of the Jean and Syber and the rating wars and deep discussions about honest ratings, a 10 was so common that the entire high rank board was filled with pure 10s, or close to it. As ML commented, you find a group and then it's kinda like a high school thing with a whole lot of hugs and smooches and I think this is what is called fun. There are rock solid country cliques in here and honestly, if you do country, even borderline, there was a time when you could live in 10 heaven. I think many of the clique types have moved to other boards. And the huge mass of newbies has kinda made this a much fairer and less "in crowd place." For the record, there are some exception country singers in here. I am not a country genre person and I still go in their subs and post very postive comments which are heartfelt. Good is good in any genre. Even rap. Even hiphop. There is rap I can "live with" (barely) which is exceptional for the genre. I mean look at Blondie's Rapture. She started it really. She even uses the term hip hop. And like (Rap) ture. This was eons ago music wise.

3) do not ever knock a persons 10 down with your rating. It is always safer to go into a 9. whatever sub and rate because your single rating will not toast the singer's position. To me a true 10 is pretty golden. It means that all of the users or most from the pickiest to the more liberal think you have a winner song. But though no one likes to hear my personal rants on "snipers" which I started with a comment once, I think everyone feels deflated when they have a rash of comments which are pretty positive. I value everyone's appreciation of my subs, but when I survive through Cham, and Blue Stained, and DJ, and about any one of about two dozen tell it like it is evals, I feel I have run the gauntlet. I am not cute enough, social enough, or can I restrain myself from critiquing enough, to ever have a 10 for long. Neither Syber nor I, even if we have the #1 record in the U.S. and post it, will ever keep a 10 rating. That is the law of the jungle in here.

Ironically, these subbers I have mentioned , and I think I can safely rate them because I respect them and their honesty (and I haven't named everyone.. I know there are others) And if you want to really stir up the wrath of hell, go through and rate every single one of a megaposters subs and bring every sub down as well as crash their total rating. This I would not do.

FYI when I go on a critquing spree, I generally am not rating low as I am commenting. Yea, call it a character flaw. Unfair. But like Blue Stained, MANY times if I go through a sub and it is well, not good, I just listen unless I feel the person is open to my comments.

So if you are the magic 10 killer, this is not a big plus in being popular.

4) Don't tell people (who can't deal with it) they are singing flat. Sometimes you can squeak by with pitchy or a few notes are kinda off. But I am coming to the total revelation that people who sing flat CAN'T hear it. It is not because they are not trying. And what is worse, MANY listeners can't hear it either. I totally grieve when I listen to people who have really cool sounding voices that can't stay on pitch. It has been the demise of a dozen tryout band singers if not more in my life. Imagine if you are looking for a female singer and (being a guy) she is very attractive (Stevie made it through this though) and simply cannot hit her notes.

5)  Be insensitive to a deeply emotional post. Now this can truly damn you in the popularity community. It is the danger zone of all ratings. And I will admit I have put up a few very emotional, move to tears, songs, to be rated. But I would ask people, and I will try to do this most times, if someone has died, it is your child's song, or something that is deeply personal, don't put it up with a 'C'. Because if a person negatively critiques such a song, it is kind of popularity death and not fair. A recent example was my "cute" song to Sky and Miranda which I did not put up for rating because I thought this would be a "cheap" shot.  Stuff I really feel and dont' care if people find my extremelly emotional side disgusting and I want rated, I put up anyway.

I could go on. But that's enough. My posts are generally mini-novels. Some of us will choose to ignore many of these realities and here's what is strange. Some people will respect us for it, and others will TRULY dislike us for it. That's the way it is in real life, and guess what.... this is the real world in here too.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

As long as anonymity exists within the rating system,  certain people will always use it to get their "digs" in. The rating system unfortuneatly is an effective place to do this.  When cons of a system outweigh the pros, seems it's time to modify such a system.  If enough disliked the way the current ranking system worked, It would likely be changed.  Yet if a poll were taken, do you really think even half would object to any aspects of the current setup within "C" category?  I doubt it.  Afterall,  5's and 6's in real are receiving glowing 9's here. It appears the majority don't want any aspect of the "C" category modified at all. Additionally to many, the least bit of honesty is construed as brutal honesty.

What we see in the "C" area currently (right or wrong) apparently is what's working best for the majority of the members. In a college music dept you are likely to receive a genuine critique. Here, few want that. The venue itself is "just for fun". If I wanted a serious critique, I'd state this someplace within the description of my submission, and ask to have it emailed to me privately !

The majority appear to be able to accept "limited honesty". VERY few here will graciously accept the genuine critique.

I started posting in the "KARAOKE SCENE" singers forum, because I thought it was Karaoke singers listening to, supporting, and offering helpful advise to peers. I really wasn't under the Impression of the Mix.

In that I was NOT expecting to be judged by PROFESSIONAL singers. Nor do I expect my opinion as a NON-professional singer to be of value to a professional. I came to this site expecting to enjoy posting, and the comarodery (spelling) of others who enjoy singing. Personally I don't think anyone "stinks" as a singer. Some peoples singing is not pleasing to my ears, but their moment in the spotlight Is a little bit of heaven to them, and they deserve it.

I saw a poster once saying "Music washes away the dust of everyday life". and I believe it to be true.

IF a majority of the singers here are amateur, then what value do they offer the Professional. In that they are not trained to hear the small quirks that a professional would find totaly abhorrent.  Also is it a bad thing to encourage a beginner to continue with a pursuit, that he is beginning Because he isn't perfect.

I haven't had any bad comments, or critiques. But think about it before you discourage someone from ever singing again. We are dealing with many different types of peoples here from different backgrounds, and cultures. We have to even watch what words we use.  What isn't offensive to one person can be very offensive to another.

I am not trying to change the mind of anyone here, only to remind people. Everyone has feelings.

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

This get's tricky Dr. D.   It's a very interesting question IMHO.  Often what separates the amateur singer from the professional singer is not the persons ability, or any aspect of their musicianship. Certainly not the individuals 'knack' for hearing nuance.  In here there are several that are no less skilled than the industry professional. More than not, these individuals want others feedback too.  Yet sometimes it's just personality type,  lifestyle preference, perhaps not running into the right person at the right time that deliniates the "pro" from the "amateur" artist.  Might even be physical appearance. Less charismatic stage presence equates to a tougher time breaking into the industry. Both the "amateur", as well as the "professional" might be equally as talented. The only difference might be the professional makes some money doing that which the amateur could do equally as well.  Both can benefit from feedback as well. In here there are also trained, and accomplished musicians.  Today, Karaoke can be a great practice tool for a serious minded individual hoping to get a break sometime down the road, and go Pro.

When ranking, a persons feelings should always be taken into consideration.  Since the ability mix in here is not homogeneous the beneficial rank would be a sliding scale. IE, one persons "8" will be another more capable talented persons "4".  Constructive criticism however only goes to those that ask for it in PM's, or EMails however. I'm not Clairvoyant, and don't want to try to help a person that will end up resenting me. It seems that many despite the posted description actually think "C" means comments.
"Careful analysis" or "C" in SS appears to involve scrutinizing our own comments in order not to offend the person, rather than actual energy spent on an analysis of the persons singing.
The guesswork as to who truly wants a critique, coupled with the degree of critique an individual can handle makes things difficult here.  Some genuinely CAN accept the well intended unselfish constructive criticism, and it's ashame that the increasing difficulties directing people away from the honest critique are responsible for this small segment that genuinely want the critique and honesty (in hopes of improving in an area they love) to lose out of such a benefit.


Even if I replace the term amateur with casual singer.  Many casual, or just recreational singers do in fact appreciate (and respect) the advice of those with more training who are attempting to help them improve.

We both agree however that how the advice is delivered is very important.