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Debauchery
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 Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:40 am |
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All this harmony talk gave me an urge to listen to ‘Quando, Quando, Quando’ by Michael Bublé and Nelly Furtado. Great song… very distinctive harmonies. Anyway, thanks for the reminder :dancin:
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syberchick70
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:08 pm |
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JazzyBaggz wrote: Theory-wise, most simple songs fit into triadic harmony. That is, if you have a trio of singers like Wilson Phillips they move in triads.. IE.. it's a C chord and the melody is singing E - F - G - E, the lower harmony will sing C - D - E - C moving a third below the melody.. BUT this doesn't always work depending on what the melody note is. Say it was a C chord again and the melody started on a C and went C - B - C - E?? If you are singing a lower harmony, a third below C is A and that would NOT fit the chord, so you find the nearest chord tone that will work and move with the melody. In this case, that would be a "G" and the lower harmony would be G - F - G - C We end on the C because we can get back to triadic harmony there. Also, if you use your ears, you may not like the way that "F" sounds, so you can make the decision to stay on the "G" which fits the chord.. SO G - G - G - C If you are going to do an upper harmony with that same line ( C B C E ), triadic harmony would work here because "E" a third above "C" does fit the chord.. So your upper harmony would be E - D - E - G.
Now say you had the same notes (C B C E), but this time the chord is an A minor chord?? This would change things.. The lower harmony could now start on the 3rd below because "A" is in the chord (It is the root). The lower harmony would be A - G - A - C (or AAAC if you don't like what that G does to the sound.) The upper harmony also fits just going a third up because E is in the A minor chord, BUT the ending note just following in thirds WOULD be a G in that case, and in a plain old A minor chord, G is note a chord tone, so you would just take the next closest chord tone which would be the "A" .. so the upper harmony line would be E - F - E - A...  :confused: :shock: :confused: :giveup: :withstupid:  JazzyBaggz @ Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:52 am wrote: Well.. this is a seemingly easy question, but with complicated answers. The truth of the matter is, that for the most part, singing harmony just comes from your ear. Training your ear to hear harmonies comes from experience singing them. For instance, I think a lot of my ear has been developed through the years from first singing in choirs as a child, and then experinmenting with it on my own, and now it just comes naturally to pick out the harmonies in a song. If we had to sit and figure out music theory for every song we are going to harmonize, it can be done, but would be very tedious to have to do all the time. My advice to anyone who doesn' seem to "get" harmonizing, is to develop your ear. Join your church choir and sing an inner part, listen to groups, (trios quartets) and sing with the different harmony singers to get your ear used to picking out the harmonies. For instance, Wilson Phillips, or the Dixie Chicks, or some Barbershop music..
Actually, interesting that you should bring up 'barbershop' music. 
I've discovered that when I need to figure out the starting note for a harmony, I just picture one of those old Bugs Bunny cartoons, where a 'quartet' sings (in stepped harmony) "hello - hello - hello - hello" (each one harmonizing above the previous one). Simple, eh? heheheh :oops: 
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auctionmusic
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:09 pm |
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I was just surfing around on the net and found 10,000 "you can harmonize" products...found a media file where the wilson sisters show how they do it...step by step...one sings lower, the other much higher, together they harmonize...hmmm...I can't do this with these vocal chords...so maybe that's it...I don't have the skill to pull it off cause my range is not extensive enough......I did it on a song Penny Lane and I'm going to go back and figure out what I originally did accidently....
reading all the info on here....this is great!!!!!
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syberchick70
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:38 pm |
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auctionmusic @ Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:09 pm wrote: I can't do this with these vocal chords...so maybe that's it...I don't have the skill to pull it off cause my range is not extensive enough......I did it on a song Penny Lane and I'm going to go back and figure out what I originally did accidently....
reading all the info on here....this is great!!!!!
!! no way... a 'simple' harmony is only 3 notes higher (or two, not counting the base note) than the melody (more or less). Now, if you jump up to the 5th (5 notes higher than the base note), you MIGHT have trouble.. and an octave is often hard for singers to reach... depending on where that base not lays on the scale.
Maybe Jazzy would be kind enough to record and upload an example for you? Or heck, I might even do it if I get motivated. Penny Lane, WOULD have some high harmonies for a lot of guys, if you did all three parts.
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:31 pm |
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Quote: what I'm getting to understand is its an artform
Like I stated, it's an area of aesthetics. We are conditioned from a young age to recognise and favor a certain style of music. Ever hear the term "Western" music  Our "EAR" is conditioned (in some cases) to recognise, expect, and favor certain particulars. There are many :modes: of music. Certain eastern, and mid-eastern styles utilize harmony structures that are atypical of our western music.
I suppose what I was trying to say, is that a written technical explanation can't help you develop your ear. Just as I couldn't type to you how to paint a landscape and mountain scene, explain to you about horizon lines, type about colors used, and expect just based upon my typed explanation you'd tastefully produce a gorgeous proportional mountain and water scene.
Brett mentioned "Familiarize yourself with the melody first". This in SOME cases can work, Yet I've taught students music that are very familiar with melodic structure, and flow, yet they still can't grasp the abstracts of harmonizing.
This is an abstract area that is conditioned, and learned. Requires an element of ear-training, It's a type if language, and certainly requires interpretive skills.
Most people take forgranted the sophistication that goes along with this. Yet like learning any language, or even math..... You must practice practice practice.
Principles of harmony people have given you. Yet how easy a time do you have with melodic content ? Very basic ear-training ? This is all requisite.
I'd recommend you take a college level "Intro to music course". Reason being these courses cover ALOT !, Being a college level course, these aren't simple courses, and will build up to where you need to be to understand some of the intricacies behind harmony.
Here's what you have, and I did anticipate this would happen. A few have explained to you rudimentary principles. Scale triads, and major triad inversions. Whenever you play a chord in music, you have the root note of the chord, and harmony. Yet how does a c major triad understanding help you to sing moving harmony for what you stated you are trying to do ? Sing harmonies over YOUR OWN composition ? Others such as Jazzy and myself that have some skill with music composition have probably blown your mind here. Trying to show you how it can work  Telling you that this is an abstract area of an artform. Must be learned.
Thing is, If someone tried to explain this to me in writing it would just scare the %^($ out've me.
TECHNICAL vs. ARTFORM:
Music is BOTH art, and science. A musician is also a technician. I believe as a pianist what I do is artistic, geometric, and just plain mathematically abstract. Yet piano is also a tempered instrument. I play 12 instruments, and there are differing and varying degree's as to how instrument theory works.
I tuned piano's for a couple years too. Trained to do that. Talk about how theory and technical DOES NOT work in music. Try tuning a piano with a strobe, and not by ear. You can't. A machine can't tune a piano correctly, ALOT of compensation goes into it. The tuner listens for "beats". Here's what's quirky however. The people that have the best ear, will have the toughest time tuning the piano "By ear"; you MUST use sound physics to tune. You do in fact tune by a "science": the particular, scrutinizing ear only serves to drive a person crazy here. The piano will be out've tune. A machine can't compensate :cents: involved tuning a tempered instrument. Apply the circle of 5ths to tuning a piano, and you have one ugly sounding piano at the high and low end.
Another interesting aspect of music. A skilled violinist doesn't use identicle fingering on the ascending, and descending harmonic minor scale, the 7th, and 3rd of the scale is positioned slightly lower descending to please the ear. This is also done in MANY compositions as well. String players learn about some of the nuances to music.
Russ, Music is a type of language. It's art and it's science. It's technical, yet sometimes really simplistic.
Somethings you just have to do in real, and experience....
Take a music course.
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:15 pm |
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Quote: F=MA Newtons second law, or principles of inertia don't apply here, no I could get into relativity, and particle theory if you want, but my guess is it'd piss people off  Yet if you want to get into the philosophy of aesthetics you can PM me Quote: For some reason, over the eons, as humans we have come to accept certain frequencies as pleasant and others not so pleasant. Each not has a frequency, like I think A is 440 hz, C is 262hz, etc. slightly higher lower is domninant, subdominant and not pleasing...
Exactly, There's a HUGE psychological component to art. Which is why music therapy is a growing area. I've read studies on brain activity and music.
I'm certainly not a fanatic that sings to my plants. (heck, why kill them)
Regarding the Beatles and prior music skill. They might not have had formal theory training, yet McCartney always showed musical ability even as a youngster, and played instruments at a young age. Since you like the beatles, listen to how amazingly busy, McCartney's harmonizations were on bass when with the Beatles. He was ONE busy bassist
This get's more into "knack" vs, "trained skill" however. Regardless of their learned knowledge, these were gifted teens. We all know that some are born with a greater propensity to excel in various areas than others. Beit athletic ability, or artistic. There's a conditioned , and possibly genetic aspect.
Funny thing, One night a few of us from a philosophical room went into a strip cam site. As a goof one of the guys started talking about relativity, figuring he'd just be obnoxious and pedantic and get booted. He knew his sciences too.
Irony here is, the stripper knew more , She started correcting him, and got into chaos theory, and string theory..... naturally all the "normal" guys left.
I had to stay and watch this. Whenever I have a question about physics, or QM, I go visit this stripper now 
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auctionmusic
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:33 pm |
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...thanks Steve for all you input....sopping it up like a dry sponge....
now I know what killed all my plants...and they were Cactus type.......so close the door now when I sing....
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:43 pm |
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 AO Russ,
Abit of a side note. My mom was a classical ballet dancer, and danced and later taught with another dancer in the same area "Beatrice McCartney" who married Pauls cousin Keith. I had alot of questions about Paul as a kid when I met the couple for the first time as you can imagine (being a beatles fan myself)
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auctionmusic
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:53 pm |
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Hey Steve
..somehow the additional text didnt' show up before on your comment...
...can you ask the stripper about harmonizing?....never know might have a revelation....will probably charge for answer though....
...its clear the Beatles folks were very gifted...and circumstances drove them...Paul admitted he was in the right place at the right time with some original tunes everyone liked...John said "..I learned something about my ma and my pa...they didn't want me so they made me a star.." George was no moron either, but Ringo...he even admitted to being "the biggest fool to ever hit the bigtime, and all I have to do is act naturally"...
...thanks much for your info..and anymore you want to dump this way....
Russ
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:17 pm |
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Quote: somehow the additional text didnt' show up before on your comment.. I know, I thought about that afterwards :) It cracks me up to this day. Quote: but Ringo...he even admitted to being "the biggest fool to ever hit the bigtime, and all I have to do is act naturally"...
Funny thing about this, even ringo became a musician during the evolution of that group. LOL He did some pretty decent work during their last two years together. During the psychedelic period his drumming wasn't all that bad.
(that was RIngo drumming, right?) maybe they had a stunt drummer, someone that could drum
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:33 pm |
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[font=georgia]Hey there y'all
I just wanted to add that I went ahead and decided to explain the triads and basic theory way of breaking the music down just to show HOW it basically can work. And I assumed that we are talking about the basics here, as this kind of thing will apply to most popular music we sing today. If you have a basic understanding of triads and chords, you CAN use that to apply to finding harmonies. You don't necessarily have to know the chord structure of the song to do so either IF you train your ear to know WHICH note of the chord the melody is on. In any song that I sing, I always make sure that I can tell what note of the chord the melody is on, and sing both up and down the chord from that melody note. I don't necessarily have to know that It's a C chord, as long as I know I'm on the 5th, and can sing down 3, 1, and up 1, 3.. If you can do this, you can harmonize.
But even that is not entirely necessary if you have a good ear and can pick out notes that are in the chord even if you don't know whether it's the 5th, 3rd, and so on.. As I said, the most important thing than theory, is to train that ear to get used to picking out the notes in the chords and make a muiscal line out of them that is complimentary to the melody and which makes sense. Many singers who are aces at harmonizing are just natural at it and it has nothing to do with music theory. They most likely were immersed in an environment that accustomed their ear to picking out chords. Maybe they grew up listening to their parents who played in a string quartet together and they developed it from listening to that, or they listened to a lot of doo wop or barbershop.. That's why I suggest to anyone who wants to learn to harmonize, to listen to barbershop music, or doo wop, or old motown groups, or something contemporary like Wilson Phillips.. Be aware of the harmonies going on, and sing along with them. You should develop an ear for it, and a "sixth" sense, so to speak, about how to pick them out when you are doing harmonies for yourself. So basic theory can help, but just for the pure ability to sing them in popular music, you are best served to listen listen listen and train that ear...[/font]
_________________ [scroll]  [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:41 pm |
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Was that Brian Wilsons daughter ?
The "Heart" Wilson sisters floored me with their use of harmony on the mid-70's D&B album. WOW, what gorgeous vocals
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:54 pm |
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OK, It's late and I'm getting abit Giddy 
Russ,
You want to study harmonies ? buy every album produced by ABBA, and listen to ABBA for a few hours each day LMAO
Chiquitita will teach you all about parallel 3rd's 
sorry, I couldn't resist 
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:02 pm |
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[font=comic sans ms]ummm ok.. are ya mocking me or what??... :/ I'm just trying to help here. I realize the things I have suggested are not the deeper aspects of harmonic structure, but they are a place to start, and are what is MOST helpful to someone trying to learn BASIC harmony which is what most popular music is made up of.. That's what I thought the focus was here?? Or did I miss the point?? another good thing is to get your hymnal out and practice singing those harmonies, or pick a part to sing in church instead of the melody..[/font]
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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auctionmusic
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Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:02 pm |
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Hi Jazzy,
Yeah practice makes perfect and that's what I'm picking up...I'm actually training on a course where you learn to have "perfect pitch", the ability to hear music and know the chord...but I"m learning to recognize the "color" of the sound...its slow goin but that's what it takes...
The wilson sisters have a site where they are singing a part of a song, first one, then the other, then together. One sings higher than the other. THe guitar being played is played the same way for each part...no change in key or anything. trouble is I can't sing that high...I think its an octave higher than the other sister....I can't do it that's all I know....
I'm starting to get the idea though, and all this info has helped my out so much...I'm studying what you've said and its actually starting to make sense....I feel there is definitely a "set of mechanics" you need to understand to get started...
Thanks so much to the max for all your info Jazzy....much much appreciated....
Russ
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:32 am |
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Absolutely NOT mocking you in any way, shape of form Jazzy ! Wilson, I thought was related to Brian of the Beachboys, yet also made me think of Anne, and Nancy Wilson who have some amazing harmonies on the Dog and Butterfly album. As far as ABBA, that was just a goof on listening to ABBA alot.... Today ABBA has a stigma attached among many of we older folks, and I'm exhausted so I just found the thought of a middle-aged male stocking up on ABBA songs 30 years later perversely humorous.
Quote: The idea is I want to record a track of my vocal, then replay it and record a second track while listening to the first track, and make a harmony from the two...could be three or four tracks as well...
As for the rudimentary major triad, well... Not sure if Russ is looking for something so simplistic in his quest to figure out if there's some equation, or theory a person can use to apply voice harmony to melodic composition throughout. I think he was really hoping that there was some theory that in writing explains where one would move next, and solve this such is an X, Y algebra equation. If the melodic line is X. where does Y go relative to the movement of X. His initial statement was he's dubbing over himself, and he wants to know technically how to harmonize. If we heard his melody line, than perhaps we could give him tangible examples.... Not sure we can really help him, UNLESS he enters his melody line, and than we have a reference point.
Yet you have more musical knowledge than I do Jazzy, I'd NEVER mock you, or your thoughts on this.
I was just being goofy in general. Exhausted
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:08 am |
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I wasn't aware that it was possible for a person to report their own posts to the moderators of a forum, yet in a semi-conscious state. I just reported my last post to two moderators.... (I meant to edit my post, and goofed) the buttons moved :*
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Phill Cross
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:03 am |
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Okay, first I know absolutely nothing about harmony or any music theory. However after reading the above comments I am quite impressed with some of the knowledge that our members have. Further, I think it is terrific that you all are willing to share that knowledge.
----
Kappy - I did know that about you.
Brett - WOW! Impressive. Especially for a Brit. Ha, Ha
Sher - I heard they were serving jello in the KS cafe...
Also, btw - I like ABBA - okay I do and I am man enough to admit it...
^ Sorry couldn't resist.
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No seriously, I find that the contributions from our members are just outstanding. Please continue to share.
 :hi5: :beermates:
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Rainbowgnu
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:55 am |
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Phill... You're so cool!
I AM NOT A BRIT!!! I'm just undercover... HEHEHEHE
But I agree... some good knowledge exhange going on here...!
Brett xx
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