Karaoke Forums

OK People...

I'm fairly new here compared to many of you, and I've made it clear from the outset at my admiration of honesty and truth.

Imagine my upset when I was told about a sub that I had commented on, and saw an accusation of sniper ratings, which I am fairly sure was aimed at me, after I gave a fair and honest critque of a song.

I want to make it perfectly clear right here, and now, that I WILL not change my personal commenting system, or the way I rank, (when I do), purely because of how well I know somebody, or their previous comments and ranks...

I have my own personal opinions, and they will not, and never will be, guided by the comments and thoughts of others!

The ranking system as it is claims that "5" is average... So if I feel a song is average, and I feel the need to rank, then a "5" is what I will give!  I have NO problem giving out a rank of 5 or 6, and I was under the impression that the other honest people around here weren't either... I'm not the kind of person, as I have seen before, who will offer improvements, and then rank 10... If it can be improved its not a 10!!!  If its average - Its a 5... Its all there in black and white!

I'm pretty mad right now, and very upset, so I apologise if anybody feels this is unfair of me, but AGAIN I'm gonna state my point about this...

If a song is subbed in the critique category, then at the bottom, above the comments box, in BIG blue writing, I read... "PLEASE CRITIQUE THIS SUBMISSION"... So that is what I do!

More to the point...

I DO NOT GIVE "SNIPER RATINGS"!

I DO NOT RANK BASED ON A COMPARISON OF THE ORIGINAL SINGER....!

I RANK HONESTLY AND GIVE REASONS FOR MY RANKING AND COMMENTS!!!

Now yes, these are all my opinion, and for that reason, its not always gonna be the same as what everyone else ranks and says... Thank god for democracy and freedom of speech!

In all fairness this comment may not have been aimed at me, but it definitely felt like it was, and it was definitely 50/50 between me and one other person!

Thats all I have to say for now, but I hope that this thread gets response, whether it is good or bad, for or against me, I just want honesty, but I don't like feeling accused and made to feel like I can't be honest...

I'm not gonna let it stop me, and I'll continue to be honest, but if anybody DOES feel that I personally, or people in general, aren't honest or giving good enough reasons for their critiques, then PLEASE feel free to tell me - especially those people who have attacked me for my critiques, as I feel they are fair and I'd NEVER hurt anybodies feelings, but I won't give them disillusionment either...

Thanks for your time, and waiting for your replies,

Much love to you ALL,

Brett xxxxxxxxxx

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Brett - look, it's an old and sore topic. I've generally been on the other end of it, but I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Yeah, jvj gets pretty emotional and defensive of me, especially when I do something he considers to be 'very well done', and it sounds like his anger was more than likely directed at you, since you probably gave a low ranking on my submission.

True, if *I* had been ranking someone on the sub I did (and I'm one of the toughest critics on this board), I would have ranked it much higher... I would have attributed the 'lack of emotion' (which wasn't really.. it was lack of an appropriate emotion) to the singer's interpretation and although I may not have agreed with it (as I told Angelle in a song she did), I would not have ranked it low because of that.

Still, each of us ranks according to our own preferences and to be honest (as we all know), MOST submissions in this group are WELL over-inflated. If you choose not to be, that's fine with me. I was glad (although a bit surprised) that everyone liked the 'Whats Up' sub, but were more critical on the Avril sub. Again, to *ME*, my biggest flaw in the submission was the notes where I went 'off-pitch' as that drives me nuts. I know that I could do a more 'energetic' and 'angry' version if I chose to do so, and I may yet... I love a challenge. But look, I would be the LAST person in this website to go making a huge deal out of low ranks.

As for 'sniping', 'revenge' and 'fluff' ranking.. yes it does happen, absolutely! I've seen many the person with a '10' ranking on a submission, whos voice absolutely grates on the ears and who probably deserves a 6 at BEST... then songs with only minor flaws getting those same 6's. When I get lower ranks, they usually come from folks who are unhappy about me giving THEM 'realistic' ranks (and in those cases, it usually involves pulling a '10' down to a '9' or something... wah...), but I'm not saying that's what happened in your case. In fact, I kind of see my being a 'hard critiquer' on other folks as sort of... 'keeping them honest' with me. I told them the truth, folks feel compelled to do the same back to me. Fine!! I can live with that.

Anyway, you guys don't get your feathers ruffled. It's no biggie, although to MY perspective, (from the ranking) that is one of the worst songs I have done so far... but on the other hand, I know there are things I could do to improve it, so I may try to do so. Either that, or permanently shelve the song.

I welcome ANY and ALL feedback on my submissions... so don't let this discourage you. Thanks.

Seby - I ranked your song like I do every other song...  According to the pieces of writing next to the numbers... So I ranked your version above average...  

I have no problem telling you what I gave that sub because i stand by it 100%... I gave you a 6...  But alternatively I gave your sub "Overload" a 10, because I personally though it was far better...

I comment and rank fairly - or at least I try to... and I hope that you and eventaully even JVJ can understand that...

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that I watched the ranking on that sub, and it was falling with each comment after JVJ's outburst, and considering its an "avergae" rank... that means that certain people also ranked it with a 6, or even lower, so to me - it wasn't a "sniper" rating at all...

An apology would of course be nicef or such an accusation when I'm trying to show people that honesty and fair ranking should be paramount and outbursts like that just discourage people from doing so... but I won't hold my breath...

I'll continue to listen to your songs, and to comment and rank fairly... You know I love your voice and style, I've publicly declared it... But for the reasons given - I stand by my original rank and comments... there was and is no covert operation to lower ratings and I really don't like the implication, so hopefully an apology can be made... publicly... here would be good...

Thanks for listening everyone,

Much love,

Brett xxxx

PS - Seby - I really DO love your voice... I just have to rank and comment fairly... I can't give others 5's for average performances and then not do the same to the people I class as my friends... I sincerely hope you understand, and if nothing else, at least you know that when I give a high rank and glowing comments, they are heartfelt...

ok well i ranked the song average syber a 5 because to my ears it was average...the song itself is an angry song...listen to the lyrics its a lassie screaming listen to me why do you make things so complicated.

Any good musician and vocalist will feel a song and if they don't feel a song then they won't perform well and this is what i feel happened syber, i aint gonna lie to ya its not about sniping or anything to that nature.

Your husband is obviously looking out for you but he should not and i say NOT accuse others ...we cannot all be wrong syber, and for the main people agreed this was really not the song for you.

Now i know this is gonna come over hard...but people have screamed sooo much on this site for honesty yet when people are honest its not taken on the chin.

I have always as many know had my bitchings about critique because of hurting peoples feelings and knowing how much effort people put into their subs...but i thought well ok let me try their way and see if it works...but on the whole it doesn't because you cannot please everyone.

I feel right at this minute confused you can't win if you tell someone what a great job they do even if its not a perfect performance...and you can't win if you try to offer constructive comments in a sub open for critique....so at this moment i am really unsure of which way to go.

Okay. Let's be clear on a few things.
1) after a few comments Seb had a fairly decent rating. An hour later it dropped like a stone. Conclusion. Someone had rated her pretty low in terms of the general rating common on the subs.
2) I don't check Seb's subs every few minutes. I didn't know who it was, therefore no personal attacks here as you might note. Perhaps I have coined a new term "sniped" which means, someone posts a fairly nice comment, and then rates something low enough to make someone's over all average drop a lot.
3) There's a lot of conflict here about the rating system. Since you insist I explain, I will. On a Bell curve, you know a few As, a few Fs, a LOT of Cs. This translates to 10s 5s and 1s.

Now tell me, how many people on here have averages in the 5-8 range? How many in the 1 to 4 range. Now here is the big question. How many in the 9 to 10 range?
As long as you are consistent, as Seby said, more power to you. Yet, you want it square on Brett. Things are not always what they seem.

Seby has no problem with your honesty. Neither do I.

Phil actually had to change the system so people could not go back and downrate people after people gave them less of a rating than they thought they deserved, and it was happening.

So, let's keep our facts straight here No names have been named. Honestly Brett, guy to guy, you have no idea how ugly it can get in the forums over the critque thing. Whole threads have been deleted as things quickly escalate to personal attacks and  flames.

Did I have any idea really who rated what? No. Just a sad little Seby who worked all day on a sub and and thought it was great and I guess a few people decided to start on her sub to post 5s and 6s.

How many other users have you rated with 5s or 6s so far? If you have dutifully, as per your Crystal Oath posted, gone through a lot of other Average subs and rated them 5s then well, fair enough. If other people rating Seb a 5 or 6 have done the same to - what was the Bell curve again.. that's a lot of subs to rate with a 5.

If I did not feel Seby had been singled out for posting several critques I would not have posted what I did. You respect honesty. Respect mine.

I don't rate less than an 8. Most of the times I don't rate period. If I like the person or even don't like them, and like their song but it isn't super good, I just pick out something nice to say, and post it.

Too many hurt feelings and unhappy people. I think the whole rating thing sucks anyway.

I have heard a rumor there are new members coming who are going to be brutally frank to all the subs. Get ready for the fur to fly.

jvj

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Missy... read my above post for my feelings on the matter.

My only request is that if you feel ok giving me a '5' for that song, I certainly hope you won't rank other folks higher than a 5 for songs not nearly as good. I mean, fair is fair, right?

As I said (and especially after reading Brett's post above), if he wants to rank people that way.. I have no problem with it as long as he's consistant as he says he is. However, it seems a little odd to me, Missy, that certain songs I have seen you post on, with a ranking, come up 9s & 10s but are just... well.. horrid.

I have absolutely NO problem if everyone wants to readjust the current 'somewhat overinflated' ranking system to be more... 'accurate'. Of course, I'll be back to giving 2's again... *shrug* but not out of 'spite'. I've given people I don't get along with AT ALL 'high' scores because they did well.

I mean, just for a moment... let's be completely honest here. Let's go from Brett's point of view (or essentially, someone new to the site, as I was). If we CAN say to ourselves that the 'average' karaoke singer is basically on-pitch and fairly easy on the ears (which I think is probably generous), then 99% of the songs on this site are not only 'over-ranked', but ridiculously so.

But, I digress... I have developed a certain standard *I* used for ranking and critiquing here. I don't plan to change it any time soon. I don't care if Brett feels I deserve a 6, that might just be a 'good' score from him. However, I doubt he will continue to rank that way if he truly DOES continue in 'complete honesty' with ranking.. when he ranks the wrong person.

syber i will tell you how ive began to rank shall i....go and listen to maryokekaraoke and her sub above yours....i gave that lassie a 10 and to me a fully deserved one...then you will see how i have been ranking.

But to be quite honest after this episode i really dunno what to do...dammed if i do dammed if i don't kinda thing.

and, its only been the last few days that i have began to try and give critique and rankings...and already feel stressed out and having to explain my actions.

Seby - I DO rank consistently...  And I expect others to aswell...

Fine - I know that they don't... But I do, and I'm not gonna change that.  

If I hear a horrid post, then I have no problem ranking it below average or even worse...!  Although I have to say I don't hear MANY in the "C" category that are THAT bad...  But I have come across one or two, and I won't be dissuaded by this "group mentality" of rating subs with a rank which clearly says next to it "NEAR PERFECTION", unless it IS near perfection... Thats not being true to myself and its not being true to the person who has asked for an honest critique... (WHICH BY THE WAY IS WHAT WE DO WHEN WE SUB UNDER "C"...)

In fairness though, others aren't going to adjust their methods of ranking when they see, and are subjected to outbursts like this... I'm not personally offended or angry for myself, but because it completely highlights specific problems!

People, yourselves included, are crying out for honesty and complaining about the ranking system, and yet you are creating public issues like that, which only results in worrying people about giving honesty, and sets the whole process back to square one!  So to be perfectly blunt, people need to make a decision about what they want!

As for my method changing when I rank the "wrong person"... Its not gonna happen and I take personal offense to that comment.  I have been and will continue to be honest, and there is no WRONG person... Those who subject their songs for critique, and then make excuses for the comments they recieve, or don't accept the criticism they've asked for, only show themselves to be either indecisive or delusional!  As long as I stay true to myself, then I can't go wrong... no matter who doesn't like the things that I say...

If I stay honest and people decide they don't want honesty, then perhaps they should submit JFF or LO...?  I really hope others come round to the honest way of thinking too, and use the "C" category to its full potential... If you don't want honesty, then you don't need a rank, so just do it JFF and then there is no problem.

Brett x

ONE OTHER THING... JVJ - That post from you is pathetic... Sorry - but you had more than enough to say in your attack on me in the sub... and now that others have agreed with my comments and ranking, you suddenly think its better left unsaid...  You wanted to publicly denounce my opinion, well now you've got the chance to say what you really think - so feel free... I'm open to opinions...!  I look forward to seeing your explanation or continuation...

I rewrote my post four times, trying to make it more clear. Remember the song, Complicated - well that's how it is here Brett. The longer you are here the more you wil understand what I mean.

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

OK guys...

I think its all been made pretty clear now...

I agree with some things said, and totally disagree with others...

I do agree that this isn't a place for flaming or personal attacks... and I would hope that a thread started by me didn't have any need to be deleted for that reason, so I'd ask that anybody commenting on this topic, (if they choose to), doesn't resort to that behaviour... Most of us are adults here, and we should all be able to openly discuss problems without behaving like that.

I also agree that there are people who will rank personally, and that ranking sucks, but it isn't the ranking tool that sucks, it is the way that it has come to be used.  
I can assure you JVJ, and Seby, and everyone else, that the average rank I give out is around the 5-6 mark.... so if your submission survives after I've posted a comment, you KNOW you can be really proud of it, (from my opinion anyway)...

I give out 8's, 9's... even a couple of 10's... so please don't feel i'm just generally trying to make everyone worse than they are, and also please don't feel that I rate personally... I am just being honest to myself, and to those who place their work on here.

I know it can be hard, and even upsetting to see something that you have worked so hard on treated in that way, I go through it myself each time I put a submission in the "C" category...

I also know that certain people feel as though I am a bit hard on them, naming no names, but that isn't the case... I am simply honest, and I hope that others will eventually come around to that way of thinking too.

JVJ... My question to you is... If your average given rank is 8, and you don't rank often, then are you not simply adding fuel to the fluff ???  Why not try to be honest with everyone, and turn things around to use this site in the way it is intended?  

You mentioned the Critiquers agreement in the forum, and as you mentioned - I have signed it, and because of that - I won't change, as I've already stated... I urge anyone else to do the same if they feel they can even begin to post honest comments, and/or ranks...  Hopefully when people realise that honesty isn't ACTUALLY so bad, and can help us all to improve, they'll come around too...

I agree that there are many "average" people on the site, and to be perfectly forward about it, I am probably one of those who recieves higher ranks than I deserve... I don't know?!  And thats what I hate... I simply don't know if I'm recieving fluff or honesty... I HOPE it's honesty... I really do...

Anyway - my point is that there are many, many talented people on here, as well as those average ones, and I would like to believe that we all have our strengths and can help each other, through, honesty, to improve and learn from each other, which is what I feel the site is for...

Anyway - I'll shut up now...

No hard feeling JVJ, or Seby, or anybody else that I may have offended, and lets all remember that its all about the music, and sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's not, but it is still our music and our expression...

Much love to you all,

Brett

PS - GOOD KARMA GOOD KARMA GOOD KARMA!

Brett, yea, I think things got a little fired up and as Seby commented last night, you kinda walked into an old debate thing here. We are adults, and I do like to encourage all singers. Shotgun, I believe made a point some time ago, that not everyone who subs for critique can deal with things, if it doesn't go well. At one point we were considering a button, (now really let me have it and I mean it).

Girl_a_little_lost, Seby's sister is coming in as a new member, another true "hottie" and performer type. I'm going back to working on my originals and we'll let the fur fly among the females. And it will.

We are all brothers.. I wrote that in a song once and mean it. I would like to believe in something beyond this, and I try, but if this is all there is, then we are all we've got.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

all i can say is roll on the time in bringing the other option critique without rankings, because syber seemed to accept the critiques given, but the rankings have been what has been upsetting.

Yes, I agree.. I was just mentioning to someone earlier today (how much time to spend on this site anyway) that if a 'critique - no rank' option were available, I would probably use it. Ranks are just too subjective anyway... but I DO want feedback from people on most of my songs.

Brett - (don't take this the wrong way, it isn't spiteful) yes, of course your songs are 'over-inflated'... most on here are, as I said before. Someone I know, mentions that most submissions are 'inflated' by about 2 points... be that as it may, I seriously doubt most folks are going to change the way they rank. You'll just have to get used to it. Of course, if you rank enough people 'honestly' by YOUR scale, you will no doubt see a drop in the generosity. It isn't my imagination, ask ANY of the other 'honest' critiquers on this site. It sounds like you simply stepped into a pile of dung you hadn't even realized was there. Like I said, no biggie to me. I'm glad you & jvj got things ironed out.

Oh, and don't you find it curious that even though ALL of my posts on this matter have been civil, suddenly I have 'negative' karma?? (ooh big surprise there) Right, folks on here are NEVER 'vengeful'. Anyway, I don't care one way or the other. I don't generally like to name names, but I think I'll post something here in a bit to prove my point.

In any case, Brett... I am convinced, from your rating standards, that you weren't trying to be 'spiteful', although all honesty considered, I doubt I deserved a '10' on Overload either. I mean after all, it wasn't 'perfect'.  :shock: (happy you liked it though).

I don't recall who... but someone mentioned a STAR system.  Perhaps it is time to expiditate this.

One Star       -- Several areas requiring additonal work/attention
Two Stars     -- Requires additonal work in one area
Three Stars  - - Good Job.  Some minor flaws, but overall good performance.
Four Stars     -- Very Good Job.  Nice cover of the song, few minor flaws. Well Done
Five Stars     --  Excellent Sub.

This is the model I use at work.  And at the bottom of the page... I have a space for narrative... which here could be the PM or IM.  

Way too much worry about numbers here, folks.  Focus on the critique not the rank.

JMO

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

here we go again...

and you wonder why people stopped asking their songs to be ranked?

One person's sinatra is another's trash, and vice versa.

I stopped going to the Showcase because it's all so political nowadays. I'm also not able to sub that often, due to my current living conditions, so I don't feel it too appropriate to spend a lot of time there.

Seby, jean, if you put your work ot to be critiqued, it'll be so. If you put your work out to be ranked, you better be prepared for an HONEST or even the DISHONEST ranking... facts of life.

I DID go and browse around, but didn't see the aforementioned submission you guys are talkin' about

Hi Matt

We're talking about my last sub 'Complicated' (Avril). I think the biggest thing turning people off to the sub, as I understand it, is that I basically didn't do it like 'Avril'. My sister listened to it last night (I can always count on her for an honest opinion) and SHE said "Well, it doesn't sound anything like Avril, you don't do it the same way she does, but if you look at on it's own merit, I think it sounds D@mn good".

So, there it is. When I recorded the song, I wasn't really familiar with it (just barely enough to know the melody... i'm very good at retaining melodies) and I just didn't see the 'angry edge' that she puts through in the song. Instead, I saw it as kind of a sad, longing type song (my mistake). ANYway, it's really no big deal. I'm trying to decide whether or not to go through the trouble of re-recording the song with the appropriate emotion... on the other hand, I'll probably just leave it be and move on.

I'm not saying this in order to continue any argument or debate... but I did point out that I wasn't comparing you to Avril... I love the way that you "Seby-fy" songs... I think that is the mark of a truly unique and worthwhile vocalist...

I simply don't think that song was the right choice for you... Thats all... I don't know... It just didn't sit right with me for the exact reasons I gave...

Overload however, was a perfect song for Seby-fication... Again, I don't know why... It just worked... Its a basic fact that some songs grab our attention and make us feel really comfortable and good, and suit the singer... and some just don't...

I would never compare you to Avril, or even her style... I took the song for what it was... A song by Seby... I don't know if that makes any sense at all... I can actually see what you mean about some of the other comments though, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you on the fact that the song should be taken as "you"...

I hope some of that makes sense, and I'm glad that JVJ sent me that message resolving the issue, and that things are all good between us...

Much love,

Brett x

Ok, no problem... and as I said, I'm not really pointing a finger here, because you have explained the way YOU rank. Anyway, it isn't THAT big of a deal to me (although I now have the compulsion to prove your statement 'i simply don't think that song was the right choice for you', wrong...) hope you don't mind! heheh

PLEASE feel free... I'd love to hear another attempt... For Sure!