Karaoke Forums

This has likely come up; yet in doing a quick glance over past threads I couldn't find anything that really answered my question. I'm sure however there is a more intricate description someplace within the forum.

My concern would be crossing over boundaries into Critiquing on the "Just for fun with comments listing".

EXAMPLE:

Very good submission listed as "J". I felt that had the tempo been picked up slightly, the song would've been greatly improved. In picking up the tempo a little bit, vocal work would've been brighter sounding, and tighter sounding. Both aspects important to the submission IMHO. Therefore song would've been improved.


I submitted these comments and than thought twice, and retracted above comment. I didn't want to criticise, where criticism wasn't wanted, I left the comment of essentially "good job" feeling that I had to hold back.

I need advice on this matter. Where is the line drawn ?
I really don't wish to step on toes.


What the heck is "comment" vs "critique" in singers forum (not a music conservatory). Big difference.

Or: those of you that avoid posting in Critique/rank, opting for "J" instead. Is it the rank you wish to avoid ? or any content such as my aforementioned constructive "comments" ? I haven't a clue

Where is the line crossed here ?

Personally speaking...

I'm not interested in numbers, so I don't use the critique box cos you get ranked...

If I could choose critique but without the ranking, I'd probably go for that...

_________________

I didn't even feel comfortable PM'ing the individual on this Atomic, because I really don't have a clue here. There's an awful lot of ambiguity here <LOL, and no, that's not why I'm still awake> hehehe

I know what you're saying Steven....

If the JFF means NO critiquing whatsoever, does that mean all you can say is "great job" regardless???

That's how I see it, anyway...

I don't get time to listen to a lot of subs (tho Phill's new gizmo will make it easier - I'll be able to queue up the songs and listen while I get on with stuff) but on the JFF subs, I tend to just find myself saying "nice job" or not saying anything at all...

_________________

Yeah, others asked me to make that adjustment as well.

Need to get that changed...

Critique w/ Rank

Critique w/o Rank

Just for Fun w/o Rank - "Nice Comments no critiques"

Listen Only w/o Rank w/o Comments

Okay let me see what I can do

Personally, when I sub just for fun, it just means that I haven't really worked on a song or I'm just trying something different that I've never done before. I subbed a 'Cheap Trick' song which is completely different to what I'm used to singing, obviously...no way would I want a critique...I really just wanted to see whether I made of fool of myself or not.

I think of Just for Fun the same as I would a song sung at a Karaoke thingy....we could have clapping smilies...the more smilies shown, the more we liked the song...but then we'd have some whining that they only got one or two smilies instead of 5 or 6.

Jeanne, This is a great example of what is confusing me here.

Let's assume <hypothetically> under the current "J" setup, you were making a fool out've yourself. Without some suggestions (even tips along the lines of what I was ambivalent about mentioning) you will never know if you are making a fool out've yourself. Unless of course "J" does allow for some degree of constructive criticism.

If not, like the fool onstage at the bar, who will give the performer any advice at all under the current "Just for fun with positive comments" arrangement ?

This is EXACTLY what I am asking about. What does the "J" submission really want from the listener ? We need some boundaries.

Some element of opinion (which to some falls into critique) ?
or no critique ?

this is very confusing to a listener that wants to help

hmmm ..good point! Well then, let me just rephrase my answer to your original question ... I dunno.

Steven, when I actually work up the enthusiasm to record a song, I've taken time out of my normal schedule to do so. Recording is kind of a pain in the arse for me anyway because I have problems with the mic not picking up certain things (like when I have to go lower on a verse, etc.) and so I'm just singing away... then on the playback, I am not happy with maybe one or two really low parts and I have to start all over again, reminding myself to sing a little louder here and there so the mic will catch it. It's a hassle at times. I allow myself only 3 tries on a song. If I can't do it in three, I give up. Hence the lack of more subs on my part.

Now... when I can record it in 3 or less and am somewhat satisfied with the outcome, I'll submit it only if I feel like sharing it. I find karaoke to be much easier, because you get one chance to do the song and that's it. No one can save it, play it back and listen to the mistakes repeatedly. So if I've taken the time to record it, I've done it purely "for fun" and I don't want to be critiqued on my voice. I don't mind one bit if someone tells me the recording sound quality was too low, or there's distortion, etc. That's no big deal to me because for one, I've not recorded enough and played around with all the bells and whistles to figure out how to fix the sound, add effects, etc. I basically just sing into the mic while the backing is playing and record on a seperate track, then mix the two together. One of these days I intend to really set aside some time to play with the software... but for now, I just don't record enough or have the time for it.

My friends IRL are very blunt individuals... and if I royally screw up the song, bless their hearts, they don't hesitate to tell me . Fortunately, that only happens if I've partook a little too much "liquid courage" that evening. And even then, I KNOW I screwed it up (which is why I will not sing anymore if I think I've had too much.) When I hear someone else mess up a song, I still clap for them just because they had the NERVE to sing it in the first place.

That is how I feel about many of the subs on here. I think it's EXCELLENT that so many people are interested in singing and enjoy sharing their renditions with everyone. Even if it's not the best, or I don't care for the song or the genre... I still think it's wonderful that an individual submits their songs and finds enjoyment in doing so. That's what this site's all about, IMO. Do what you enjoy! If I listen to a sub and don't like the person's voice, the song, or really anything about it... I simply don't comment at all. And as I've stated before in some other thread, I don't rank or critique... and if I see that person wants critiques or ranks on that sub, even if it's one of my favorite singers or I am comfortable telling them how I feel about it, I never critique their voice.

And now that I've written a short novel... I'll stop babbling.

_________________

this has gotten to be such a touchy subject, but it's a real shame that you are very understandably hesitant to offer helpful words of advice when you'd like to--this is the kind of thing that so many of us can use to improve (btw, i agree with you on tempo--and the tempo can be adjusted to make alot of backing tracks and vocals better). lord knows that the ratings are a joke sometimes--at the same time, while i know where my mistakes are, i've never had any type of formal training and i KNOW that i could learn alot from others. frankly, i don't even know what questions to ask. i'd really like to see, if not more tolerance for helpful advice that's offered, an "in-between" category of some kind for the folks who don't care about ratings, but really are interested in helpful advice from others without getting ripped to shreds by someone who can criticize all day long, but either can't or won't help to "fix" whatever they hear that's wrong.

_________________
"howwudiduppohdaddoh?"
buckwheat, 1938

If we don't rationalize, isn't this what is happening under the current system ?

The mature person requesting and deserving the help of others sharing a common interest, is instead being deceived in the comment boxes.

When we withhold the truth, the comments often entered present a lie to the person wishing for honest comments/critique

....I've switched from "ratings" to "Just for fun" only cause to me this is just for fun....I'm astute enough to know if something is wrong or not...I really don't need someone else to tell me if I'm on pitch or not...I already know...In the process of switching I also take much more time to put together a sub...more practice singing it...more practice mixing it..etc..so that when I sub it that's really the best I can do at that moment. Anyway, many of the comments I was getting were conjecture sometimes on the commenters part...kind of like telling an artist (painter) that the sky should be blue'er...but I've had good advice like "the volume is too low" or "your vocal is too low"..that kind of thing...but even that can be computer system dependent...

For my money...if you want to know how good your song is...just count the comments...as I've been going at this, and as I"ve been taking more time for each song...the comments on my songs have increased...its as simple as that..more effort and more practice eqauls better music..The singers on this forum who are good singers have lots of comments..those that aren't so good have less..its just that plain and simple...

If you want a lot of comments, do a song everyone knows and is popular with as many as possible, and do a splendid job of it...and you'll get lots of comments.

For the most part noone is going to go to your sub, listen, and comment "hey great job" and not mean it....it takes time to listen to the song and comment on it...so when you get a comment it is for the most part because the listener likes what you did, and enough so that they took the time to comment....If you think the song could be better and the subber is "just for fun"...then don't comment on the sub that's all.

Another issue not addressed is views vs comments...if you have a song with say 30 views, and you have 3 comments...that's telling you something is wrong...and if you have a song with 15 views, and 15 comments, that's telling you something is really right...

If you don't know if your song is any good or not...then allow critic and ratings to get a better idea where you stand.

I think all the good singers should sub "just for fun" cause they are already good, and most all of them do it that way..or even no comments. Anyway, how can you criticize a sub that has 25 comments? Its like critizing a number one song...

Russ now gets off soapbox...

Just don't bet your whole bank account. You'd lose it Regardless of how good the song is, If the person submitting isn't known, never acknowledges those that comment, or the individual appears to have a bad attitude, they won't build a following. If anything they will lose it. People also will be more likely to acknowledge those who take the time to acknowledge them here.
There's a HUGE personality factor you completely failed to take into consideration. You also omitted music genre, another very important aspect, types of classical and opera aren't favored over popular styles here. (These topics have been addressed in the forums).



Are we talking about the same site ? I'm talking about "Singer's Showcase". The site where plenty say "hey great job", and sometimes haven't even listened to the song.
"I really enjoyed this", "great Job" as well as "great to hear your voice", are often interchangeable with "Hello, Just stopped by because I owe you one". LOADS of "white lies" in the Singer's Showcase. People also give praise, in hopes of receiving praise. The political aspects have also been covered in the forums.


All this aside. I'd still like some definition as to how the listener deliniates between acceptable comments, and where the comments would actually fall into the category of the :critique: ? What crosses the line ?
Some indicate there is little difference, they post in "J" to avoid rank. They welcome all tips. Others post in "J", and don't want any improvement tips. Some of you post in "J", and I don't understand why you aren't posting in "Listen Only".
I've heard no clearcut definition.

There shouldn't be this much ambiguity regarding what is the acceptable "comment".

_________________

Well now...

I agree with EVERY point of view put across so far... THis is such a "touchy" subject around these places, and its a shame, because everyone is so nice, but the problem isn't anybodies fault, its just that there can't be any distinct line between the way people rect to subs, and how they put those reactions across, (or whether they should)...

I personally would sub mine under "C" so that I can see peoples critique and advice, to ultimately make me better. I think thats how we grow as artists/vocalists, for whatever reason we sing.

However, A "Critique" without rank choice would be great, as I've really come to realise that the ranking system isn't at all accurate.

Perhaps I was naive in thinking that it would be used in the proper manner, and with objective points of view, and I honestly believe IMO that for the most part, it is... But inevitably some people don't use it in this way, and personal choice, and relationships come into play... Which is fine, but for me, personally, I'd love an option to get the critiques, without the ranking, and without having to state in the box at the top that I'd like a full critique... (Call me lazy - but I just think alot of people would prefer this option?!)

Anyway - Thats my two cents worth...

Brett
xx

Hello there Stephen...

I noticed your reply about what I said...but I still think I'm right.

This is Singers-Showcase, not Singers-shamcase... although I do agree with your points it is very much in the minorty...I have not seen any crappy songs get 25 views yet...and it'll never happen here....no matter how many other subs the crappy song subber heaps false praise on. Of all my subs I've never had the comment count greater than the views count...so if someone is commenting without listening its not happening to me. Or maybe you think they are listening for a second...then sham commenting..which I doubt....My view counts are always higher than the comments count...which tells me not everyone is happy with the song...or they just want to listen without commenting...whatever...there are people outside this site, not members, who know me and view my songs as well...so that adds to the views count without adding to the comment count...

Most of the people on this site fly straight...you are right there are exceptions...but thats the case with anything....

Russ

I actually have to say... I HAVE seen my comment count at more than my view count...

Not often or anything, but just after I have subbed before, it HAS happened... I think its just one or two people... But meh - I don't know...

I guess thats just proof of a fluffer...

Brett

Auctionmusic,

Look carefully at many comments in the "critique" category after listening to many submitted songs. (This is the category I mentioned in my example). Get a history based on the interactions of MANY others (besides yourself) in this category. Also take into consideration what the term "critique" means.

Few are "flying straight" in this category. There's a huge degree of withholding the truth in this category.

You are right, Russ.... most on here are very good about listening... then commenting... BUT ~~ I did have a song last week that had 3 more COMMENTS than VIEWS. Was rather shocking to me ....

Overall ~~ I do think people listen to at least SOME if not all the song ... but I have the numbers to prove that it doesn't ALWAYS happen that way. And yes, you are also right that this occurs to a small degree no matter what the situation ~~ you always have a few that don't follow "protocol" ... but in a case like this... where you are commenting on a Performance.... it was really surprising to me.

As for critique without rank .... I say whatever.... but to be honest ~~ in a few cases ~~ some folks do that anyway (not critical scrutiny~~but point out minor flaws) ~~ on the JFF subs nows.

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]