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It was the Adam's Family 2 and little Wednesday (dark haired Goth exceptional baby doll decapitated) was being dragged up the hill for the ulitmate punishment. To be tied in a chair and forced to watch Julie Andrews, Sound of Music, and a long list of sachrin Disney.

So, I listened to a few subs and got Simon mode ready to critique. I listened to both male and female, a few tracks. Lotsa harmony, some beautiful voices, nice vibrato, on pitch, perfect. Good enough to be the soundtrack to some Disney Nemo thing. No real technical flaws.

Yet, I sat there, bored. I did not feel exhilerated. As the voice soared, I did not. I looked at the ratings 10,10,10 - or close to it. Why did I not want to give a 10.

I am not a vanilla person. I need an edge, something raw, something twany, something, dangerous. Watching performers sing songs that reach in your ribcage and get you.

Now this was a new feeling in a way. I couldn't say, well .. mmmm off key, or out of breath, or tone like a mallard duck with a clothespin on his nose. No.

But I sat there and it left me cold. I am used to music grabbing me. Sometimes I have jumped up and danced to like Goddess in the Doorway or played a CD 3 times and leaped around. I used to dance - took dance, needed that feeling. Kind of like the start of a song in Flash Dance building to a cresendo and feeling the the splash, not a blood splash like in Carrie, just that final rush as you stand there breathing on dance floor, having jumped around until you are drenched and feeling the pounding beat and your partner looking at you as the next song started with that "no way" look in her eyes.

Syber dances. So does her sister. I listen to a song and I think like some jaded record producer, where is the hook.

So I guess in music I go for awe or heart pounding want to undulate throbbing primal rhythm. I can't do that to American Idol. There is no "Money for Nothing Get Your Chicks for Free."

But I guess it's a matter of taste. Remember the guy with the superspeakers that blast in the commercial like a nuke.

Now I have decided I would prefer an emotional cathartic singer with an edge and some flaws, to a lovely voice. I will always be dangerous, on the edge, borderline. Sometimes, I like the something soothing, but I have just gone through a couple of perfect subs, and felt beyond a megayawn.

Maybe I need more coffee. Oh God, not the Julie Andrews room again. Please no.

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

~ glad to see that I don't bore ya cuz mine are anything but perfect HAHA

Do you mean you want to have the same reaction to a song like the one Gilly's gave ya? *snicker, snicker

I guess I could certainly try, but how does Seby feel about this?

Showtunes are like Opera in a sense... you have to have a "LOVE" for those particular genres to really appreciate them, IMO. I for one find myself in awe of some of the showtune subs ~~ Jason has subbed a few that have moved me to tears ~~ and others DO have SOUNDTRACK quality voices.

Now, I am not a big COUNTRY music fan... so for me, I sometimes feel that "it sounded good, but it didn't move me feeling" you've mentioned, jvj ~~ when I listen to a lot of the COUNTRY subs. However, I have heard some that have been Kick butt good....technically & in the way they were delivered. I've heard some really good renditions of both new and classic country, and I have come to really look forward to some of the country singer's subs. I can totally appreciate the talent and showmanship in those subs, even tho it isn't usually one of my choices, for personal purchase., nor will it ever be a big "LOVE" of mine. Yet, I can appreciate it ~ and recognize a "good performance".... and understand why it is receiving kudos.

Personally, I too tend to like a sub that is emotion filled, gutsy, maybe even raw, as you've stated ... and yes, maybe even a bit flawed... but heartfelt in its delivery.

I like this thread....because it points out how musical preferences can effect our "perceptions" of what we consider ... GOOD ~~ and isn't that what drives the business side of the music world?

Cool topic, jvj.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Jeanne! .



Anyways, back to topic... once again, I will use my fave singer here as an example. Tim. he may not be technically perfect, pitch or otherwise... but, there is something so unique and different about him, that I love each and every submission. And, i play him all the time (ok, i am a stalker)

Where, there ARE some singers here, who are technically perfection. Absouetely gorgeous voices.. but, boring as heck.... kinda like norah jones for me. I love her, but, my gawd, does she ever put me to sleep, and make me feel like I am trapped in an elevator.

I want guts, and rawness, and that REAL feeling, you get from certain voice. Boom, another example, Jeanne. She may not be PERFECT everytime.. but, you can FEEL something when she sings. ANother example for me Is col (bigcol) An acoustic submitter.
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Ok, now that I have put DOWN my two fave singers:) i know they will understand, what i was trying to say:)

Anyways, I hope i have that going for me. I am SOO far from good, technically, but, if you know me, I always hope that... oddness that is Gilly shines through when i sing. My husband says it does, but, of COURSE he HAS to say that:)

...I thought about it for a bit...and I know what you mean now...I think...that you can tell when a singer is pouring out their innerself....I've always felt this way about Joe Cocker...

wellll...HELL. I sure hope y'all aren't talking about me as being one of those "technical only" people who bore you or aren't emotional enough... I'm gonna have to go cry if you do .. I actually try to put emotion at the top of my list for what is important when I sing a song.. the technical stuff just comes along for the ride...

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[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]

What comes to my mind here is style of music Gilly. Jean has an excellent ear, yet I don't think "perfection" is something most listen for given the very emotional style of ballad she performs (at least in the short time I've been here). In a song like "Heaven" which I would've given Jeanne a "10" on what would constitute "perfection" ? A few important things must be taken into consideration. Most importantly, "What are the listeners expectations when first seeing a songs genre"?

When I clicked on Jeanne's "Heaven" for instance. I expected to hear a female doing a rendition of a "Brian Adams" song. I was MUCH more open to variation, than let's say Jason's "If I were Rich Man", or a few of Jazzybags more classical pieces. I listened VERY critically to Jazzy's Anita Baker song. To me that requires technical sophistication AND an amazing ear. She did nail that song! Jazz, classical, ESPECIALLY show pieces are VERY VERY tough to score a 9 or 10 on. The person MUST be near technically perfect to do them that well ! So apples to apples. On an interesting note also, some songs will just never get a 10. They aren't that interesting, regardless how well done they are.

Now let's briefly look at "perfection". Listen to Jeannes use of Vibrato in a song like Heaven. Can that really be perfected on ? I say no. So even in a more lax genre of music, she displayed area's of perfection.

To me if the singer displays an excellent sense of phrasing. Excellent sense of pitch, and does a song better IM MY OPINION, than the original artist, that might be "perfection". I don't know if "technical expertise" is an area most focus on in the "Candlelight easy listening" genre of ballad style. It's what it does to us emotionally that is important. Sensuality.

A singer who sings "lounge" style ballad, isn't bound by the same stringent set of rules an opera singer, or Jazz cover vocalist must adhere to. Seems to me alot of ballad, and etheral style music allows for innovation, perfection becomes more subjective than that which the classical vocalist, or jazz vocalist has to sing.

Quite honestly, I lack the interest, and for that reason perhaps the sophistication to know what makes the "perfect" opera singer, or classical
music vocalist.

I think much of this also has to do with ones individual preference in art form. Is the person who paints, or etches a portrait any less of an artist, (perhaps the human photocopy machine) than the painter who creatively turns you into some surrealistic form of mysticism ? Is the artist who captures superrealism, less of an artist than the artist who paints a more emotion based painting ? Similarly, are any of these artists better "artists" than the interior decorator who has learned how to setup a scheme requiring what appears to some to be a less artistic knack. Or, the photographer who must learn to look at hue, or tone of the black and white photo. Just have an eye for developing ?

Where is the breakdown of artist, vs. technician, or when ISN'T the technician an "artist" ?

I suppose to some what I consider "paint by numbers" music, (classical sight-reading) there is margin for the performers "personality"people claim they listen for. I feel, that assuming that isn't total hogwash to me the degree of allowable INDIVIDUAL expression is so insignificant, that these people are just gaged by their ability to be human playback devices.
The orchestral instrumentalist is a trained, yet skilled "cover" musician. Yet are they not everybit as "artistic" as the more creative innovator ?

I think this depends on ones own likes, and bias in the art realm.

Is the skilled technical performer as much of an "artist", as the person who takes a more creative, albeit less conventional approach in a different genre, less, or more of an artist ?

There is no answer. It's all the aesthetic preference of the listener.

Kids today might find Nirvana was so filled with emotion that it brings them to tears. Put Bobby Goldsboroughs honey in front of them, and they will laugh at how tacky it is, and walk away from that song unscathed..., not even emotionally touched. Beatles ballads to some of these grunge listeners are about as filled with emotion as gregorian chants are to most of us.

should the musician be sophisticated ? or just express themselves freely ? I prefer sophistication.

Different strokes. So many allowable areas, and preferences in the vastness of what is called "art", and "music"

Me. I'm just a cover musician. I leech off've others songs. I have the ability to photocopy these songs without sheetmusic, and perform them VERY closely to the original composition instrumentally. I'm hardly creative, innovative in music isn't important to me. In fact I dislike it... I wish it ended back in the 70's.

in "The day the music died."

I mentioned someplace that I predict within 5 years the Boston Pops will have a new addition to their percussion section. An instrument called "The turntable". This bothers me. Yet why ? Art forms change, styles evolve. In the 50's "jazz" was considered the "Swampland" of music, parallel 5ths were shunned. etc. The saxophone wasn't acknowledged as a traditional instrument allowed in the orchestra, etc.

Fascinating area, the philosophy of aesthetic forms

Oh my goodness, Jazzy ~~ If there is one performer on here that ISN'T boring... its you!! And the emotion you give to each song... is truly your signature!!

I've told ya before... and I'll say it again.... you have a voice that the whole world should be hearing. And I sincerely mean that!!

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Speaking for myself, and being just smart enough to know what I don't know about.

When I hear Opera, or classical, I just turn to the person next to me and ask "Was that any good?"


I can't diffentiate between technical sophistication, and performers emotion UNLESS I watch the operatic performer. The deliniation between "performer emotion/technical cover" (or acting) isn't as clear in some of the more sophisticated classical forms. ESPECIALLY to those of us that have very limited exposure to such a genre.

I can tell you whether or not someone singing a Carpenters song is putting emotion into it. Yet I'd NEVER accuse what appears to be pure technical skill, of lacking emotion. I just lack the ability to discern at such a sophisticated, and unfamiliar level.

For that reason, I would never Critique classical, or opera. I don't know *$(^ about it. I've studied it, yet can't hear it.

It's a different language to me.

Similarly, when I was young, My mom brought me to the Guggenheim art exhibit for modern art in NYC. I puked on the ramp. I suppose the art emotionally moved me. I wouldn't have given it a 10. Yet the "artist" probably succeded in getting a reaction.


What do I know <shrug>

Either the art moved ya, Steve.... or the milkshake ya had before ya went in ~~ was sour.

Waaaaaaaaaay too early for me to be laughing so loud around here. The neighbors are gonna get angry ~~

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Cindy, no... Some of the hanging murals and free standing things, not to mention the linear type modern art with certain colors and patterns really screwed me up emotionally, and made me sick. Some of that stuff can produce aggitation, and extreme discomfort.

Artists seem to have an affinity for pushing the envelope of what is "art". That was pretty much my point. Many get into different area's, and try the "new" approach.



Yet to me dog crap with a ribbon around it, will never be art. Some of this stuff was about as artistically tastefull

oh.. okay Steve, I see what you meant.

Yes, I've been completely repulsed by what others have considered.."art".

I.E, I thought Silence of the Lambs... was an amazing movie.. Disturbing.. no question about it... but just amazing from the acting to the musical score. However....

The SEQUAL ... Was THE most DISGUSTING thing I've ever sat thru. THAT made me sick to MY stomach.


To each their own.. as the saying goes.. I guess.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Steven Kaplan said:



If you liked it, it was good, if you didn't, it wasn't.

Music like art is all subjective to the person.

What's the old saying "I don't know if it's art but I like it" or something to that effect.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Jazzy? hush, or i'll slap ya!

(well, maybe twice if ya like it)


Lol. no. Ok, so, obviously, I am not going to sit and name NAMES of people.

But, for examples, I can use.... in the professional music world... norah jones? bores me to tears. Does she have a gorgeous voice? yes. Does she pour emotion into it? yes..... i ENJOY the music itself.... but, something about her voice? bores me to tears. Hmm.. who else... Chris de burg. Bores me to tears. not the style of music... but, HIS voice. Can't stand it...

I am a HORRIBLE picky listener.... and even the singers/artists that i listen to on an everyday basis have VERY distinct styles. I can't "listen" to the pop style, runs, and grunts etc.. because, to me, they all sound the same, and it isn't even a sound i LIKE.


I can't describe perfection.... but, if I really REALLY like it, it is perfection to me.

What I meant by using Jeanne as an example (and, I used her, because I knew she wouldn't kill me..) was that, to ME she is perfect. YES, i can sit and pick out some out of tune spots, and non perfect phrasing. BUT, when she SINGS< the whole PACKAGE is so beautiful, it is so easy to over look those areas.


Some people, other people may "hear things".. and feel the music, for certain singers.. but, when I LISTEN to it.. it sounds as though the singer is just.. going through the motions... just.. singing. "Eh, the end"...i dislike THOSE peoples voices, more than I dislike the out of pitch, all over the place, people, simply because they are tryign SO hard, you can feel it... feel how much they WANT to make music.

I give up though. I am horrible at explaining what I mean, and how I feel about music. I am too odd for ME to understand.


BYe bye.

Phew... thanks y'all.. I was sweatin' over here .... And Gilly, you explained yourself very well... it's just me in my insecurities thinking that if someone is talking about not liking particular singers that it HAS to be me... yea.. I'm weird like that sometimes. I do know what you mean.. that sometimes a singer can TRANSCEND what may be percieved as vocal "imperfections" by how much emotion and style they put into it.. That makes perfect sense

Oh.. and Gilly..... "Hit me Baby One More Time!!"

_________________
[scroll][/scroll]

[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]

Lol, don't worry jazzy, I did the same thing elsewhere, with Shotguncc... could have SWORN she was talking about me:)

Mind ya, you just considered yourself to be "technical perfection".. not THAT bad of an insult, eh? Lol.

Anyways, hush, how can YOU BE insecure!?



Ok, i guess, that no matter WHO you are, it is still hard to be THAT confident, when it comes to somethign as personal, about your own singing voice. I wish i had more confidence, but, it makes me feel better, that YOU didn't just then:)

Hit you, ONE more time?:)