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JazzyBaggz
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 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:49 pm |
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Very informative article Steven!
I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on this subject now... Warning: possibly long winded and rambling post ahead! 
Ok, first of all, as far as whether I believe that grown men are capable of reaching the soprano range.. it is a rareity, but YES it absolutely does occur. Some examples that spring to mind are michael bolton, james ingram, and a huge example is Phillip Bailey the lead singer for "Earth Wind and Fire" That man can sing higher than I can. I saw him in a live concert hit a "super" G (G6!) in his falsetto and hold it, and hit it more than once. Listen to the live version of "reasons" during his improv solo.. he plays around in the C6 to G6 area with accuracy and what seems to be ease. That's coloratura soprano territory, and kinda freaky ..
Now as far as registers go... I HATE all the terminology and arguing that goes on about how to define the different registers. I try not to get caught up in that, but here are my thoughts on the subject..
First of all, yes, head voice and falsetto, are describing two different things.. Falsetto occurs when the vocal folds do not adduct (come together) They vibrate but the extra air forces the vocal folds apart hence the "break in sound" and the airyness and lack of pure tone. This is also what I believe occurs with a woman's whistle voice.
The head voice, I rather like to refer to as the "mixed" register. What I've seen some sites teach is the "fake belt" ... which is a mix that can mimic the chest voice's power and pureness of tone, and evens out the sound between the registers so there is no obvious break or change of timbre. I can usually tell when someone is using this, and I use it at times myself. I used to use it alot more often, but i've been experimenting with another "mix" lately.. (more on that later). You'll hear gospel singers use this a LOT when they get up into the stratosphere and have that really bright sound that sounds like they are belting it out up there. Pop singers use it too when songs get really high and they want to keep the power. I think of this mix as being mostly head with a bit of chest mixed in. You feel like you are in your head voice.. it is resonating from there, but you keep the vocal folds firmly adducted (to squeeze out the air) and bring the sound forward in your "mask" (nose, cheek, sinus, area).
The problem with the fake belt, is that it just doesn't sound quite right in a lot of the pop stuff. It always would bother me, because although it was a "good" match for the chest voice and pretty powerful to boot... it just didn't have the same edge and "feel" of a true belt. The dilemna that follows is that a true FULL chest voice best when it gets up around B4 and above is unhealthy and tires your voice out. The thing that makes it painful to your voice, is when as you get higher in your chest voice, your soft pallate (the part in the back of your throat that goes up when you yawn) stays down and the folds start to really "press" hard together and painfully so. What I'm trying to teach myself and have been encorporating in most of my newer subs, is a mix of mostly chest voice that uses a bit of head... (opposite of the fake belt). Instead of "fiipping" up into my head voice in that area (b4 and about), I keep it in my chest voice, but lift the back of my soft pallate and add more air to the mix. This is less taxing on the voice and still allows for more of a true belt. It's tricky b/c I still find myself letting that soft pallate go down, and allowing my folds to get tighter and tighter until I don't feel like I should keep singing. I'm getting better at it though, and with each month I can sing a little more than before and a little higher and more easily using this technique. Of course, it can only go so far, and I eventually do go into my "fake belt"
The true "falsetto" should really be used as a color tool. You hear it when people yodel and go from chest straight into the "falsetto, airy tone" I use it for different color purposes .. even mixing it a bit into my lower range like on the beginning of "have you ever been in love" to get that airy sultry kinda sound.
Now what is the difference between the head voice mix like the fake belt and sounding like an opera singer?? That's where vowels, placement, and the way you let the sound reasonate comes into play.. as well as vibrato and such. When I fake belt, it is essentially the SAME as my opera technique, except I change the vowel, the way I shape my mouth and let my vibrato creep in. The technique is the same.. Good tachnique is good technique.. What changes are the variables surrounding the technique..
I'm not sure if these things i'm saying are truth, but from my experience and training mixed with experimentation, observation, reasearch, and deduction, this is what I have come up with in my own self pedagogy..
I'm thinking of posting a clip possibly tommorow where I demonstrate some of these things I've been talking about, so you can see what I mean, and maybe try some of these things out for yourself.. Don't know if anyone's interested in that, but it could be helpful or at least amusing
ok my fingers hurt.. better quit while i'm ahead 
_________________ [scroll]  [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
Last edited by JazzyBaggz on Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gilly
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:50 pm |
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Speaking of range... Justy was just listening to "the darkness"...
now, i wanna hear someone submit one of THEIR tunes!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:17 pm |
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Jazzy, I forgot all about Phillip Bailey, and yes He's amazing. We opened for EW&F in 1974, and he has an amazing falsetto. I suppose there are the male "countertenors" that are singing in the alto range too. I suppose technically they are Altorange voices that are just headvoice singing. Usually the male vocals consist of Chest voice, head voice, and falsetto range. Females have a middle voice, and that flageletto voice (or whistle range) as well as the chest, head range......Yet I think they have a falsetto voice as well (shrug). Here's a breakdown of the ranges.
As a general rule:
Soprano - High female voice, G3 (below middle C4) to F6 above high C6 although anywhere above high C can be included.
Coloratura - A singer, usually soprano, who sings ornamental passages in music - C4 to F6 or G6 above high C6
Lyric Soprano - Warmer middle sound - Bb3 below middle C4 to high C6 or D6
Spinto Soprano - Usually a thicker sound with more edge and volume but with the same range as a the Lyric Soprano
Dramatic Soprano - The loudest and lowest with cutting power - low Bb3 or A3, to a pushed high C6
Mezzo-Soprano - Middle female voice with dark quality, Low A3 or G3 (below middle C4) to at least high C although it is not uncommon for high A6 or Bb6 to Eb6 above high C6.
Alto or Contralto - Low Female Voice, low C3 (below middle C4) to high C6 or up to high A6.
Tenor - High Male Voice, C (an octave below middle C) up to high C or D (or above).
Countertenor - Highest male voice, also called alto, often falsetto
Heldentenor - Poweful dramatic tenor voice
Baritone - Middle Male Voice, low G/F an octave below middle C to B, F or G above middle C (just below the Tenor high C).
Bass - Baritone - More like a bass than a baritone, lacks the low bass notes
Bass - Low Male Voice, low E (or lower) an octave below middle C to E, F G above middle C.
Basso Cantante - High bass voice suitable for solo singing
Basso Profundo - Deep bass voice encompassing about two octaves above C below the bass staff
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tigger
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:24 pm |
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Jazzy that is too weird cuz today in the car "Serpentine Fire" came on and I'm all shoot I have to write here about Phillip Bailey's high range! Absolutely beautiful...how is it that men can sing higher than women?
Can't remember who said, oh yes Steven said a head voice prolly shouldn't be included in an octave range count and you know, that makes a lot of sense to me. (Steven and Jazzy I appreciate your taking so much time to technically explain things but I didn't understand them...don't have a musical background.) It makes sense to me not to include the head voice in the range because mine's thin and not substantial. So thank you.
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tigger
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:26 pm |
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Steven, again I appreciate your explaining in detail those classifications but can you give me a song or singer example?! I don't know how notes "sound"!!
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Jian
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:41 pm |
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Great thread this one, Now I am learning something cos am more confused.
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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:43 pm |
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Quote: how is it that men can sing higher than women?
Tigger, I suppose higher than "some women" is what Jazzy stated. With the rare exception of someone like Bailey, I can't imagine this is common. This is news to me as well. I just never gave it thought, or assumed that a male could match the higher ranges of the soprano register. Assuming I were to do a head to head, with some of the higher soprano singers I have available to me such as Kate Bush, and Bailey singing falsetto. It of course would become evident now that I am aware of this. A long time ago some of the castrato's (yes believe it or not this was done in the old days of the Vienna boys choir) had very high singing abilities. These boys sang in the soprano range, and opted for castration to remain able to sing that high. Otherwise they shortly outgrew the priviledge of being a member (LOL, no pun intended): Aside from that, I just never gave that much thought to falsetto vs soprano
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 10:03 pm |
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Tigger, I'm not sure how things are now-adays, I don't listen to all the same styles that many do. In classic rock/ballad styles. The female voice register that was most commonly heard would be the Alto or mezzo-sop range. I recall something ages ago where females singing rock would often call themselves "Chest belt tenors". Yet I also recall these females to be flamboyant and strong Alto's with some grovel
This is an interesting article regarding peoples range that I found:
How Do I Know My Vocal Range?
You don't. Well, at least not at first. The problem is that most first-time singers are used to speaking in a different range than they sing at. Americans usually speak lower than they sing, and Europeans usually speak higher than they sing.
Your voice is determined by where your strongest tones, or notes lie. For some people, this is the middle, and for some it is higher or lower. It may take a few years before you actually determine what your voice is. In addition to this, every voice type reaches its prime at a different age, staying at that prime for a number of years (the last estimate I heard was 35-40 years.) Sopranos usually reach their peak at 21-24 years of age, and the lowest bass usually begins his prime at about 30-32. In the meantime, your voice may go through a lot of changes. If you are a 21-year-old tenor, you may be a bass by the time you are 25. Only constant practice will help you through these changes.
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LinderlyLinnerz
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:47 am |
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Jazzy wrote: I'm thinking of posting a clip possibly tommorow where I demonstrate some of these things I've been talking about, so you can see what I mean, and maybe try some of these things out for yourself.. Don't know if anyone's interested in that, but it could be helpful or at least amusing Ohh, please do!! I'm really enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the cool info, you guys.[/quote]
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Atomic
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:30 pm |
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OK, using Gilly's piano scales, I can go c3 to c5, I can go higher but it gets really screechy... but going the other way, I can comfortably hit the E below c3 (I'm guessing thats E2) and if I push, I can get to c2... what does that make me??? Cos I don't seem to fit into any of the categories of voice that were posted already!!!  _________________ 
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Buttrfligyrl
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:02 pm |
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Alrighty...this a great thread! I've always been curious how far my range extended...Thanks guys!
I can go as high as B before C5..so i'm guessing that's B4...
and down to C2 comfortably....anything below that is kinda growlin...
Where do I FIT?!?!
Nicole
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syberchick70
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:04 pm |
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JazzyBaggz wrote: [I'm thinking of posting a clip possibly tommorow where I demonstrate some of these things I've been talking about, so you can see what I mean, and maybe try some of these things out for yourself.. Don't know if anyone's interested in that, but it could be helpful or at least amusing Yeah!! Fun!! 
All of this is really interesting to me also. I was trying to determine my 'exact' range from the scale Gilly posted, but my throat is still kinda 'scratchy' right now, so I can't do any of my high notes. 
Ah well.. maybe a Halls will help. I'm really curious.
(I measured it out on a keyboard a couple of times, but I didn't know how to designate which octave I was in (the c3's & stuff) so I can't remember what notes I could cover).
Right now, I can comfortably hit E2 on the low side, but I was having trouble just yesterday, singing a low song I can normally sing, so my 'scratchy' throat is probably restricting me on the low end as well, by a note or two.  I feel certain I can comfortably get into the 5-octave.. 6 would probably be pushing it.
Where does the 'whistle' octave start? I don't think I can get there, but it's close.
EDIT - right now, I can go from E2 to G5... :p So maybe that's all I have anyway (I seem to recall just over 3 octaves). So, yeah... where does that put US??
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:25 pm |
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Ok.. the demonstration file is coming.. i'm fixing it to save right now..
As far as the range thing..
Atomic and Syber.. I think y'all are off by one octave with those numbers hehe..
Atomic... I know for a fact you can sing higher than C5 which is not too high.. (that's just an octave above middle C) and C2?? I don't think that's possible for a female voice, .. that's lower than most BASSES can sing. Only the lowest basso profundos sing that low.. that is the c below the bass staff. I think what you meant is that you sing very comfortably from C4 - C6 (high C) but you are able to take your voice down fairly easily to the E3 below middle C (which is in the low alto/tenor range) and you can go down to the lowwww C3 (which is in the low tenor/comfy bass range)
Syber.. I'm not sure an E2 is likely on a female either.. i'd love to hear it if you have it hehe.. that's one of the lower notes that a bass can sing and some basses can't sing it. I think you may mean E3 which is the third space E on the bass staff and is in on the low side of the tenor range.
ohh and nicole.. I KNOW you sing higher than B4 which is not very high.. i think you are off by one octave too and that you sing from a C3 to a B5 which makes more sense in a female voice..
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:30 pm |
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OK.. i know how y'all were getting off by an octave.. you had me freakin' out over here ..
The file that Gilly used starts on middle C (C4) not C3.. so those scales go from C4 (middle C) to super duper mariah C (C7) .. that's how you got such low numbers.
and as far as what that makes you... i don't like to use range as an indicator of what "label" you are.. as far as lyric, mezzo, and etc. To be honest, I don't much like thefach system (labeling) at all, and all it is really good for, is helping the opera singer to know which repetoire to sing from.. and most opera singers can pull some repetoire from different catagories.. so i have been labeled most often a lyric soprano.. So most of the opera rep I would sing which would sound BEST in my voice would be from the lyric stuff, but I can sing some things in the coloratura rep and even a couple of more mezzoish stuff though my voice has a lighter quality than a mezzo.. And THAT's what really determines which fach (catagory) you belong to... the timber/tone/quality of your voice. Those range charts just tell you where the "best" part of the voice is, and what range the repetoire for that particular fach is usually in. So don't get caught up in labels cause they don't mean much in popular music.
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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Gilly
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:39 pm |
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Lol, oh my gawd, i JUST noticed that i did that. Shoot i am SO sorry. Sadly, JUSTY WAS THE ONE who pointed it out to me.
Lol, jeez, I suck:) how the heck did I do that. I even highlighted the darn note I started on in that picture! Lol, whoops:)
(turned out I had the first part of the music file muted. the original recording goes from .) The one i posted is messed up.
Sorry again:) for a second, i thought you were all men:)
Last edited by Gilly on Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gilly
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:43 pm |
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Ignore me completely.
Justy is busting a gut laughing at me now.
Pretend I am on crack:)
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:45 pm |
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lol.. that's ok Gilly ohhh and i think you are off by one on your numbers too.. I know that you can sing above a C5 as well.. C5 is not high C.. I'm sure that you sing from a C3 to a C6.. which is the same amount of octaves.. just shifted up to where it makes sense.
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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Gilly
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:48 pm |
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Lol, jazzy, i just did it AGAIN. Lol, i noticed before you did though:)
(i am on codeine..-migrane) and am in bed:)
I can sing almost three octaves. I shall leave it at that:)
Lol, oh gawd girl, come over and make me feel better:)
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Gilly
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:50 pm |
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syberchick70
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:56 pm |
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JazzyBaggz wrote: OK.. i know how y'all were getting off by an octave.. you had me freakin' out over here .. The file that Gilly used starts on middle C (C4) not C3.. so those scales go from C4 (middle C) to super duper mariah C (C7) .. that's how you got such low numbers. WHEW!!! Ok, that makes sense. I was like "gosh, my hearing can't off by a whole octave!!AAAAAHHH" OL
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