Karaoke Forums

oooh, neat link Steven!!

Oh. gosh- talk about leaving the wrong impression with that comment of mine. Please don't take that the wrong way.

Let me try to fix my big-mouthedness. (not an actual word, no need to look that one up, haha)

I DO NOT think I'm "above" training, good lord- have you HEARD me sing?!?!
I could use lots of help and advice.

My voice does this "sliding" in & out of notes. I mean, I literally bend the he** out of some that should be one continuous note. I try to work on that. (on some songs) If I let it come out as "natural" to me, that's what happens. To keep an even note, it takes alot of paying reallllll close attention. (and I'm bad at sliding on the last note of a line- happens often) I'm sure a vocal trainer could get that out of me. On my origianl songs- I let it go- cause that is the natural "me" coming out. But I've torn up other songs with that.

I know I too go off pitch at times. Sometimes I hear it, sometimes I may not. Usually I think I can. I think if I'm really familiar with a song, it does not happen so often, but new songs get me sometimes.

My POSTURE when I sing- well, you've never met a bigger singing slouch than ME. When I sub for SS....(I only have a tiny walmart comp mic that I use to record on).... I am sitting in my comp chair, usually slouched over to be close enough to the mic- it sits on my comp desk at about chest level to me. I get neck pain, and a sore back if I sit here for long- because I'm a slouch. As we speak (type n read I guess I mean) I am sitting here slouched Indian style in my comp chair, legs crossed in front of me. And- sadly- I just got through singing a song to sub in THIS POSITION. So, yeah, I need to learn how to properly stand and posture myself too.

I realllllly need help to gain more range. I would be lucky to have a range of 1 octave- and that's the truth. I can say- for years, I sang with guitar only, and since I'm not a great guitar player- I tended to stick to slower, low keyed songs. (Unless someone else like my dad or brothers were playing the instruments. ).......THEN along came karaoke. All the good music tracks with all the bells & whistles. Some of the first tapes I ever got were too high keyed for me. NOW I wouldn't want to do those same songs without keying them up to my comfort zone. So simply singing more has given me better range, and taught me that my voice can go places I didn't think it could. Practicing yodeling has also helped here.

I have a hard time conveying emotion in a song. If it's one I've written, and is something I was inspired to write- most of them are for me- I can throw more emotion in naturally, because of what's running through my head as I sing. But on your average karaoke love song, unless it realllly hits home- I can't do it. I just sound "babyish" in a softer voice.

What I'm saying I guess is- - - I was not implying that I need no help- I need tons. But if I say "I'm leavinnnn'ona jetplane" rather than "I- am -lea-vinG- on -a -jet- plane" (can you hear the difference there, haha) - it's a part of me I will stick with. My words will never be articulate. I sing NOTHING like I type. And that song was a poor example- I don't even sing it- I could not think of a good example. I don't want to pronounce & phrase everything in "proper english" form. Heck- I don't speak that way either. That would be my argument with a vocal coach. I woulda want them to IMPROVE ME- BUT NOT CHANGE ME. Does that make sense?

Gosh, if I typed all this and did not make any sense- I'm a loser. haha

About the "good singer" vs. "good voice" thing.

Take Willie Nelson- I love the guys style, I love his voice- but IMHO he has never been taught to quit singing through his nose. I think he could lose that and sound soooo much better. So I do not care for his "singing". But I do listen to him.

Shania Twain.... she seems to be a hell of a singer, (I know some say it's all mechanics-???), and I love her music & lyrics. I blare her music alot. But I do not like her "voice". I've heard some on here do her songs and sound sooo much better (IMO) because their voice flavors it up better than Shania.

So....did THAT make sense?? I prefer "voice" over "singing" ability. doesn't always change who I listen to..... a crummy singer with a unique voice wouldn't cut it. But if you have 2 singers- one has incredible range and articulates very well, with another same-o voice like you hear everyday- and the other is not so trained & articulate, but has a very unique voice like I've never heard before, and sings well to boot- that's who I'm gonna like better. Number 2.

OK- this is too long to spell check. you're getting this one as is. Sorry ahead of time if there are typos here.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I had the same experience when I was 18....I had a singer that was helping me prepare for a solo thing and she said to get rid of the twang,the vibrato and -what I call-stair-step singing (don't know the technical name...a run maybe? I think that is what OP calls it).....So I worked very hard for weeks doing just that....Now at 30-something (I am not ashamed of my age....I just never remember it! ) I wish I had NEVER listened to her!! Its a really sore subject with me!
And I agree with the other stuff you said, too....about MM....I LOVE her voice and her range! I am not sure about being so refined...as I said in another post...I heard her voice crack once and she made a face and kept on singing...afterwards she just laughed and shook her head....seemed much more human to me, you know?
I do the same thing, as you, when I hear artists these days....not just new ones...all the ones I hear...I find myself listening to their voice closely...There a few VERY well known singers (I only hear country usually) that really dont have a very special voice...they just got lucky with some good songs! some they wrote .....some they didnt!
I have come to the conclusion that it is very important to find a song that suits your voice and personality! Not the only important factors, course, but pretty darn important....but, now,that too, is just MY opinion!

p.s I missed the slouching comment....yeah..I do that too!! I am always being reminded of my posture!! aaghhh! It's a huge pain!

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neverheardofher

I'm inclined to think this is genre dependent. How many opera singers aren't gifted with a "knack" for what they do, yet still must study ear-training and some theory ? Take lessons as well.


Another example I'm thinking of is Jazz. My jaw has always dropped regarding some of these gifted musicians who either have some amazing "nuance-specific", or knack, and can play, or sing some sophisticated arrangements having had no training at all. Seriously though, how many have this level of talent ? and when you say "wins out", it'd also be interesting to know, in who's eyes I maintain it's tough to make it without having had some level of training, and a knack.

It seems we live in a world now, where the radio, and media listener (at least for now) appreciates the less refined, traditionally skilled artform, and this can make alot of money. Yet it's also important to note alot of the evolution of music to the grunge, and alternative styles is listened to predominantly by the young person. We older folks grew up in a world that liked folk tunes, and ballads. An art venue that allowed for creativity and Natural ability. Alot of innovation in style just in the 60's alone. (compare "meet the beatles", with "Abby Road", and look at how vastly different music styles changed from just 1965 to 1969 ) the trend went from Herman's Hermit's type ballads, and I wanna hold your hand, to the psychedelic type ballads.

In the classical venue of course, such is not the case. A person needs training, or is looked at as a 'hack"

Yeah, fitting a song to your voice is very important I think. I mean- I could SING Britney Spears, haha, and stay on key probably. Even whine & growl a little if need be- but my gosh- CAN YOU IMAGINE that ?? NO- please don't try. God, I would butcher that kind of music. And...alot of country music doesn't suit my voice either- Sara Evans for one. Don't know how many times I've tried "Born To Fly", and I just sound bad. Can't do quite a few out there. My voice just changes the song all up till it sounds like a different tune entirely. But then, haha, I've subbed some like that too I guess.

Oh, Please don't get me wrong on Martina anyone. I love her to death. She is so awesome. I just think her extensive "training"- her songs now are all about "range" it seems- has made her lose some of the "country" sound out of her voice. IMO she could go over to pop & put them silly little girls all to shame. *But pray to god she never does that. * I own most of her cds now- I sing lots of her stuff- new and old. But if you listen to her first cds.... compare them to her new ones..... you can hear a drastic difference. She's gotten better....... but a little different vocally. I've seen her on various CMT shows- she seems to be an awesome person, as well as mother. She just is no longer (vocally) that little "country-girl-come-to-Nashville". Take her 2 versions of "My Baby Loves Me"...... my sis has the 2 recordings..... of her early years & off that "greatest hits" cd. Big difference in her natural "sound" between the two. That's all I meant by that. NOT downing Martina at all. I'm sure part of it is just natural "growth" since she has been singing daily for years.
I just hate to see singers change too much over the years. Guess I'm a stickler for stuff like "sticking to your roots". And I know she's country...... I just think a little of the "natural country" has been polished off of her.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Charmin, I understand completely what you are saying and I did not take it that you thought you were too good for lessons.

I agree that you should not sing in a "classical" style if you are singing pop or country. You can find teachers who know about non-classical singing, too. What I did when I took lessons was use some of the things I was learning and then would tape and listen, to see if it worked or not.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

I could not agree more...one of the first things I noticed when I got the Greatest Hits album was "My Baby Loves me"...It's the first karaoke song that I ever sang....It was noticably different on the GH CD! And yes, I commented to OP that her songs had become ALL about her range...It was very disappointing to me. I loved listening to her sing "little but loud' on the end of 'Martina"CD (I am trying to get Curlykate to sing that one ) but her voice was young and twangy and so country....It's sad to see her get away from those roots.

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neverheardofher

I think that in many of your singing styles and levels of ability, critiquing is of more value than lessons. Especially in the popular or contemporary styles. A person that shares your interests in styles, and has a good ear, can likely do alot more than an instructor. Not all styles, and abilities will gain from traditional type lessons. My guess is unless you can find an instructor that you respect that sings your exact styles, an experts critiquing experts scenerio here is enough of a "lesson" for many of you brilliant popular style vocalists.

Oh, and NEVER..... I don't think that training coach took anything away from you. I've heard you do others genres well, but you're voice is totally country sounding IMO. And I really mean that. I think country suits you to a T.

Steven:

Haha, in MY opinion. Isn't that what we are doing here, is voicing opinions? This was mine, plain & simple.

And truly crosses every genre. I listen to country- and bluegrass. Alot of new country makes me puke. Yet I play alot of Lynyrd Skynyrd & CCR.... I love Elvis, (I am SO in love with Elvis), I like Westlife, I love Irish Ballads, I (YES< I DO) have a BB King cd I play often, gosh I could go on & on & cross almost every genre. I HATE rap music, but there's something about Vanilla Ice I thought was cool (no- I don't blare him in my radio,haha), and I think Michael Jackson is VERY talented. Naturally. So I do not cringe from everything but country music. It is what I play 99.9% of the time, but we all have a preference.
I guess I would have to honestly say I really have no tolerance for classical or opera music. (less than rap or hip-hop) My father is an old- time & bluegrass fiddler. He plays a couple classical pieces (just to be funny I guess) and I hate them.
So this opinion of "voice" vs "training" holds true for me everywhere. I would not know anything- the slightest bit- about Opera singers..... You would never find me listening to it. I did on here- quite a bit- when there was a singer who subbed nothing but.They did a very good job hitting notes I could never dream of. But I enjoyed this person becuase they were a fellow SS friend, and I loved to hear what they could do. But I would NEVER listen to it elsewhere.

I'm just saying a "voice" hits me first.

I would rather..... not to copy cat, I beleive jvj voiced this also, or someone did somewhere..... hear a singer in the raw. NO music at all. If you can take away that cool drum beat, that fancy guitar pickin', that awesome fiddle solo- and give me a bare VOICE that could make me go "wow- listen to that", that is te kinda voice that gets me. One that is music in itself. I don't mean always hear a capella, good lord I love to hear bluegrass instruments play. But I'm talking about a voice. I like to mentally strip the instruments away & hear the person, not just the tune. I want to hear what's inside- not what's been trained to come out. (Huh?!?!)

Guess I've always felt this way, but never had to explain it or put it down in writing. I'm finding it hard to say what I mean exactly. So hopefully some of this made sense.

Suzanne- I understood what you meant, and your point. I just thought "Uh- oh, they took that wrong". Just wanted to elaborate.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Gosh- that's like my thoughts in a nutshell. (about the critique vs coaching.) I mean, most critiquers can't tell you exactly HOW to change what you might need to..... there would be a place for a professional too. Maybe. I mean, you can find anything on the internet- as far as terms and even step-by-step techniques. It's not hands- on, but could help people alot. There is even a bluegrass website that does that, has monthly tips on certain areas like posture, breathing. YES- bluegrass. It's not as is if bluegrass stars are just front porch crooners who don't get training.
Straying from the point, sorry- I think a crowd like on SS can do much more for you. For all a voice trainer, or producer or whoever can tell you -it is the public who listens. And, in the pro world- the public who would buy your cds.

Anyhow- don't be hatin' (got that from a rap song, haha) cause I have an opinion too. I'm not as hick as some people would like to make me out to be. I don't think anyone here loves music any more than I do. Maybe equally- but not more. So I hope my opinions aren't taken in the wrong way.

NEVER- I actually have sang that song "Little But Loud" , haha. My dad & brother get a kick out of it. It is an old Jimmie Dickens song- but I LOVE that clip of Martina singing it when she was small, that is the cutest thing.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I managed to get back to my 'roots'...listening to my mom sing

oh, and she used to sing to us on car trips...and she would sing "little but loud" and I loved it!!

If you knew Curlykate well, you would know, that song fits her to a T!! She has always been little but VERY loud in everything she does!

I can't seem to find it on Karaoke...ever seen it?

I am sorry, I am not hijacking..I promis...Blue, you can PM me your anwer! .....Love the BABY!!!! OOOOOOOHHHH HOW CUTE!!!

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neverheardofher

I couldn't resist chiming in... since I LOVE Martina too!!! In Martina's case... I would say she has made a conscious decision to change from her roots... perhaps someone suggested it to broaden her appeal. It's all about dollars in that world! And the record label probably saw she had an amazing and powerful range and wanted to capitalize on it! But she hasn't lost anything... she could go back to any style she chooses. Her choices are all there... nothing has been taken away from her. But as long as her album sales are climbing she will stick with it for now. I'll tell ya... when she sings live... she just stands there... no foo foo show or anything... and everybody is just sitting there with their jaws dropped! She also took a few songs that she usually belts..(for instance 'Whatever You Say') and sang them very soft... it was beautiful! She is extremely versatile! She is a refined performer indeed... and I think that is what people pay to see! I bet she can still sing a nice little twangy country tune like nobody's business... but she just so happens to be a little kicka** powerhouse too!

I'll keep an eye out for Little But Loud...

Awwww..... love the baby pic!!!!

Cyberchick, Ironically however, isn't it the physical defects, and affects of smoking that give some of these people their rasp, or grovel that many like in the rock venue ? Wasn't it smoking that gave Joplin, and many others the hard edge, that so many like ?

Never- I have looked and looked for that song on cdg- never found it. If you ever did, it would be a Little Jimmie Dickens tune, and you'd most likely have to do a key change. But- heck- half my songs are changed that way. If I ever DO find it, I'll let ya know- cause it would be neat to hear her sing it. Make a guitar track for now, atleast she could sing it then.

And sheraoke is gonna look too it seems. so perhaps she'll find it..... some people seem to have alot of karaoke connections I don't have.

SHER- I see what you're saying. This I guess all boils down to personal opinion. But to repeat myself- I am in no way running down Martina. She seems happy where she is at, so for all we know she went to a vocal coach and said "Get the country OUT of my voice"..... you never know. I know when she sings it looks pretty much effortless. She has amazing range. And, she still is mostly country- but not like she was. I think if she wanted a true "born in country sound" to come out of her now, it would be forced. She has had years of singing differently. And...... for all the babbling I think she DOES sound country..... just not like before. Like Loretta, or Dolly, or Emmy Lou, or Tanya........ could you imagine Tanya Tucker ever NOT sounding 110% country? I just mean compared to true Women In Country Music...... she sounds different now.

Like Never mentioned..... that's the EXACT song I was thinking of....... compare her first & her newest release of "My Baby Loves Me". Part of it is musical growth, but it's largely vocal training. She enunciates differently, and you can tell she is singing more "full voiced" than before. But, again...... it was a comment. Gonna have to email her to join the site, haha, she has alot of champions here. But- no champions needed. I don't think anyone here listens to her or likes her anymore probably than I do. But I stand firm on my opinion. And- it is just my opinion. I actually like to hear everyone else's too, this has been interesting. Off topic maybe, haha- but interesting.

Sorry Steven- NOT hijacking your thread - just answering posts.

OH-THE BABY.............. Certainly not mine guys. My niece (my brothers daughter) is the mama. We are pretty close. (I'm usually the favorite "aunt".... guess cause I'm a big kid myself) Actually, most of them are bigger than me. Any-who....... he was born 1-13 and his name is Phoenix Sky. Isn't he cute?

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

So, I have to wonder...you started this thread out by asking if there were any voice instructors out there. Why did you ask, if you think that they wouldn't be valuable? Or am I missing something? And no, I am not trying to pick a fight, I was just wondering because the two things you said didn't make much sense to me. I am not offended or anything.

Critiquiing is not that different from lessons. An instructor just critiques you, for the most part. Even a novice, whether they are an instructor or not, can be of some value because it's just helpful to have a different person than yourself hearing you and giving you their recording (that's what the critiques here are for, right?). But the value of an instructor is that they are more experienced and can show you little tips and tricks to help you with things that are universal, such as pitch, rhythm, breathing, etc. Anything they teach you as far as styles would be different from that.

Singing popular music is much easier, believe it or not, than singing classical or opera music, but they are not mutually exclusive. You can learn to sing both and it shouldn't ruin your voice or your style, as long as you know what the differences are and you have a good teacher.

Just taking lessons again in 2002 helped my karaoke singing A LOT, believe me. I can sing twangy country, pop, modern stuff, oldies, showtunes...almost anything except rap. I'm not saying I sing it all equally well, but I think taking lessons for years only helped me as a singer (pop and otherwise).

NOT that I'm saying I can sing opera, that is very difficult and takes a lot more work than I am willing to put into it. My high notes, at least the kind you need for that type of singing, are not as well-developed as my lower notes. But I can sing classical music that is not opera (some better than others). Again it's much harder and takes more work, soooo if I am not taking lessons, I don't bother learning that type of music.

That's why I like karaoke, you can sing so many different types of genres!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Suzanne,



If you missed some of the close to 200 posts in here, you likely missed something. Much of this was covered. Critiquing the expert by the expert however wasn't specified earlier in the "10" rated singer might not benefit by what was at that point a discussion of the less educated broader opinion concept of critiquing

Without regards to context, you will be able to pick out what appear to be MANY contradictions throughout. (such as my asking how to critique, and later telling Cindy I believe critiquing is subjective, and than posting a set of rules Something can follow guidelines and still be subjective. I also stated that I am not a singer, I'm a musician who accompanies. I'm learning as I post, and read the responses in here. Also, NOWHERE did I make a general statement saying the vocal instructor isn't valuable. My statement was a response to a post I read from Bluestained, and took into consideration the persons style of interest, and assumed the singer is already a superbly talented individual that has thus-far brought themselves to the level many would have a tough time discerning as not professional. I tacitly took into consideration difficulty in the talented "10" singer in here finding a local vocal instructor that could really benefit them in the pop music genre, if they already have developed their knack. Scarcity of the local instructor at this level, and affordability as well. How affordable would a teacher be at this level ? Yet how much help can you truly get over the internet vs in person ? That was an earlier question as well, it did overlook certain aspects. The finetuning at the expert level in this type forum was a question. Yet I'd need to go back and read even that WHOLE paragraph contextually, to tell you where I was going with it at the time. Can you really finetune an expert over the internet ? You can't witness their posture, or many other aspects that might be buried beneath technological aspects.


I started this thread because of what was transpiring on a prior thread and felt "How to Critique a vocalist" was the crux of the issue. My question for the "vocal instructors" was in hopes of learning the technical aspects of how one actually critiques in the popular music genre. Jazzy gave some great ideas. I ended up needing to do a websearch to try to find the intricate details.

This thread has had loads of great input, and taken many turns.

I was sitting around minding my own business, and suddenly I got a thought In order to help some of us help you with your performances, there are more aspects that must be taken into consideration. As ShotgunCC stated, there is "some" level of comparison here. A certain expectation the listener has.
To me this level of comparison, (or standard you are gauged by) is in most cases the polished or professionally produced version of the song most of us are familiar with. A few have mentioned the issue of recording hardware, as well as skill in tweaking such hardware.
There is another factor that I believe is very important, and perhaps shouldn't be left up to those of us that don't know you well to assume about you (actually your performances).

YOUR level of skill, and YOUR expectations of you

Ideally in the description box, a performer wanting a critique would state some specifics. Ideally somewhere on this site you would have at least a paragraph about yourself, and who you are, what you like, and what YOUR OWN expectations are of yourself in the musical world.

I believe that the submissions in here should fall into three categories.
Beginner, intermediate, professional

When I run my mouth off in your comment box, I will ALWAYS judge you on a sliding scale. I have to therefore make the assumption myself as to whether or not you learned to sing an hour ago, or have been singing lead roles on Broadway for the last several centuries. I don't want to make such an assumption. I would like to know for certain what YOUR expections are of your singing, and performances.


If you are a beginner, and learning how to sing, there are things I won't even mention. These aspects build as your confidence builds.

If you have been singing for a few years, you might need a reminder to listen more carefully to yourself singing. you got sloppy in a certain area.

If you think you rank with the famous operatic tenors, and you have a serious pitch problem, I won't bother even listening to you.


What is more important here than helping YOU sing to the best of YOUR ability, and expections ? NOTHING !

yeah, unfortunately... Well, I mean I don't think that doing that stuff caused anyone to have a good voice when they otherwise wouldn't. In fact, we all KNOW that those things (and others) will eventually destroy a voice, BUT they can add interesting qualities to voices that were pretty good to begin with.

Is the grovel, or raspiness that many like in certain types of rock/ballad style "something that is often there it begin with" ? Or is it smoking that gives the vocalist the grovel ? I'm not talking about the extreme examples of strange voice quality that grew on us over time, such as the unique styles of Rod Stewart, and Joe Cocker.. Those were specific voices we got used to. How many liked these vocalists the first time they heard them ? I'm talking about the lighter smokers rasp

I dunno.. that's a good question actually.

How many people have a 'raspy' voice to start out with, and how does the smokin', drinkin' & partying really affect it?

I've heard that Janis' voice, (her singing voice) was very 'pure' when she was younger & before she started all the partying.