Karaoke Forums

That hysterical gif. came up during a keyword search for "hysterical gif".
I have no idea who that Gilbert Godfrey looking guy is, yet I was searching for funny (hysterical) gif's. I figured he'd be a great example of a histrionic personality receiving non-perfect ranking on his submission

You might be amused to know.. I THINK it's the guy in the link below. He used to have a website called 'eric conveys an emotion' where folks would write in with an emotion or 'feeling' for Eric to demonstrate. Eric would then put up a picture to go with that emotion. It was completely hilarious.

Now, it seems Eric is reduced to a few 'adventures'.. still pretty funny though from what I just saw. I had to go find him again after seeing that pic. I hope Eric get's his original website back up soon!!

In the meantime - check out his temporary site below (oh, the site doesn't sell anything or make any money that I know of, unless they've started doing t-shirts or somethin)

http://www.emotioneric.com/ae/

Sorry, just couldn't leave this one alone. This thread, including your comments, have been pretty decently intelligent and thought out. I like discussions, (so does Syber, have you figured out what we do when we aren't singing - (well besides that) we talk. ) Take a drama critic of a play. There are rules. I have been to plays (shock) and we have watched at least a thousand or so movies together if not more. We had the blockbuster record for most video rented in one location in a year. So, we also critque movies.

Trying not to get started here... but briefly - I can tell you in 30 seconds in the credits of movie usually if it's any good. I can tell a bomb in 2 minutes in the first scene if it's a bomb. If I see T&A in the first scene, credits with poorly mixed soundtrack, or film the quality of home cam, it's gonna be a stinkeroo.

So, listening to a song, there are DEFINITE non-subjective items which I look for in a sub which is seriously mixed and done to be critiqued.

1) pitch - as Steven said, if it off the whole song, it's not worth commenting on.
2) volume fall apartness (how's that for wierd) the singer gets to a belt it out place and their pitch, voice, and breath control falls apart. As long as they are singing softly and sweetly, they are passable, but when they go for the deep gut belt, coupled with vibrato, like on a violin, it is bad.
3) (a little subjective) I- Am - ness. This is something I think only real refined music people can pick up on. It is a quality when the singer is in love with themself and their own voice, and have been complemented a great deal so when they get to loud parts with vibrato they over push until it's almost operatic and sounds silly. It is like over acting in a bad movie. It's like too much fuzz or flange on a guitar. And we have singers here who can do vocal gymnastics but they are over done. This may get a few ooh and aahs from the vocally unititiated, but to the trained ear it is vocal over kill.

An "I love me" singer is sure they are a pro and whenever they get to that little trick (Alanis is not an ILM, but has a box of tricks which she uses) it gets a force 10 push.

It is the nauseum of an American Idol performance. It is the disgusting mark of a vocal instruction graduate trying to oscillate up and down the scale and tone register while vibrating like a washboard, which only a Star Search performer can achieve. It transcends bad singing, of just an innocent with a weak voice. It is the hard core performer trying to clone some superstar singer, and resonating.

I like clone singers sometimes. but ILM ones, worst offense is that they do not really sound like the singer and I get a regurg evertime I read how much they do. To the trained ear they do not. The extreme mastery and genius of the orginal hardly ever can be duplicated. Because to the pro singer is aware of every nuance of sound and you can feel it from the first note.

4) Talker walker male singers. I can count on my fingers the number of truely masterful low Johnny Cash type vocalists. If you are rating people based on their ability to do "whoever" usually the original was born with the vocal anatomy to produce a certain sound like actors who have special voices. Just a low gutteral male voice, kinda on tune, cannot do an Elvis. I can't do an Elvis. TWMS subs are fun to listen to, and I rarely critque them. It's kind of like reality television. The rawness is the charm.

5) Soul - now this is a feeling thing. The amateur vocalist usually does this with volume and vibrato. Great black singers can do this (and some others) by bending notes (Janis Joplin - Summertime) and and over all feeling in the performance. Done well, it can send chills through you. I remember being 32 ft from Janis and hearing her do Summertime and there are no words to express what that felt like. Today's bubble gummer pop stars try. But there is a difference between a 4 octave range, Alanis jumps, and real power in a voice. At a christian revival I have heard a black singer once all alone which silenced the house and brought tears to peoples eyes. It's a close your eyes, center on your heart, and just singing real loud and jumping up and down will not do it.

6) Body - you can't see it here and it is totally important in a live vocal be it karaoke or whatever. Some singers dance. Sorry Michael Jackson haters. And those that do it well, are amazing in concert. Guess in time we will be putting up video Karaoke. (remember I said that - it will happen)

7) Lust - let us not forget that music can be really sexual. And some performers can rock your whatever part you enjoy being rocked. A sexy voice is so subjective and yet it isn't. Obviously Elvis had one. Mae West had one. David Bowie has one. Jim Morrison had one. Modern day singers go for the lust with T&A shots and vibrating whatever - but sex is between the ears and a sexy voice usually is often felt by both male and female.

Phrasing, meaning, and inflection. Taking dramatic reading or acting into the musical world. Using some technique or vocal technique to make lyrics feel like the words and feelings they are supposed to convey. I have seen star search singers warble all over the the sonic spectrum and sing loud and dynamically without correctly singing or feeling a single word. Just tearing up and looking anguished when you sing a sad song does not put this into the music when one listens to it. I take great pains sometimes to do word tricks to make a certain word feel different.

So when I crank up a sub and listen, this is part of what I am listening for.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

JVJ,
Essentially what I've been trying to find out is what the judging or critiquing criteria is in the popular song venue, for a vocalist. Jazzy brought up a few great points earlier on.

If one of us went to a place such as "Catch a rising Star", how is a singer judged ? Presence I assume is important. Style I'd think too, does the ability to emulate the original supercede creativity and originality in the eyes of judges in the popular style ? I personally have no idea.
Dynamics of course, which one would think would encompass volume, phrasing, vibrato, and approach and release of notes, cadence would of course be the more intricate and technical aspects that might arguably be much less subjective than kudo's given for creativity.
I would think there is an outline of the actual critiquing criteria used in competitions. Aren't the talent scouts also "critiquing" ? I'd like to see an outline of what judges judge a vocal performance by.
Those of you that have entered voice competitions. What were you judged on ?

I have heard singers criticized by judges for trying to sound 'too much like' someone else, so at least in the 'pro' world, they claim originality does count. However, as jvj so astutely pointed out earlier, we have noticed that shows like AI (American Idol) are 'chock full' of essential 'clones' who have the same vocal style as many current pop stars (not surprisingly).



I'm certain there are such criteria somewhere.. it would be interesting to find out.

I will do a websearch, and next time I post, something productive will show up

I found the Mietta song competition site. They view the following:

All songs submitted must have been composed for the voice and piano, or arranged for voice and piano by the composer. Operatic or concert arias or extended dramatic scenas are not acceptable. A song cycle may be included in the finals program submitted. All songs presented must be sung in the original language.

Rules
Age

No age limit applies.

Judging Criteria

The Judges will take into account the special characteristics of Song Recital as an artistic partnership between singer and pianist and will consider:

Understanding of the genre
Choice of material
Musicianship
Technical competence
Rapport with the audience
Versatility in program.

It appears that the technical aspects looked for are as follows regarding the vocalist:

diction, tone, accuracy of pitch, notes, rhythm, expressive qualities, technique, posture, phrasing, breath

Thank you both!!

Because ..... alas.... we now have a set of "specific items" on which to base our RANKING. This is what I've been trying to get across. There has to be "something" or "some things" ... that make a performance a PERFECT performance. If we know what sits on the "top of ladder" .. it allows us to correctly place performances on the various "rungs" below it.

JVJ has said he can pick out a good movie, vocalist... etc... in a very short amount of time. I have to believe that is because he has, in his mind.... "something" that says to him.... THIS IS TOP SHELVE. What I've been trying to get ... is the answer to "what that is". (which I think he articulated well, above).

In my line of work.... I know the criteria for RANKING a therapy session. I KNOW WHAT I am looking for! What I've been trying to get... (and finally the last entries by JVJ and Steve have begun to give us this) ... is that set of criteria.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Some of you will likely find this interesting. It is from Wake Forest and pertains to problems that impede singers.



http://www.bgsm.edu/voice/common_problems.html

Steven, in answer to your question....I could be considered somewhat qualified I considered being a voice teacher but...I would need to get a studio and that sort of thing. We have moved a lot and I'm thinking, wherever we settle next, I might set up a business giving voice lessons to karaoke singers.

I was a music major in college and briefly was in graduate school for music as well. I took a grad class in Vocal pedagogy. In that class, we had to get an undergrad student and teach them for a few weeks. Also, I taught singing to a friend of mine before that. I took many years of voice lessons throughout high school and college, as well as many other music classes. I didn't finish grad school, though.

Just 'cause you asked!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Actually very few people in this world are "tone deaf". That's very rare.
Most people just don't know how to listen. With a little training, they could be improved quite a bit. But, they don't care because, it's just karaoke

Sometimes people pretend they are very confident in order to cover up insecurities. Or maybe their friends were not honest with them about their talent (or lack thereof), so they believed the lies.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Well....you do have to find a teacher that suits you, if you take lessons. Not all teachers are good and you have to kind of "click" with them, or it won't work.

I have to say about "talent winning out over training" that they are hard to separate. I always had a "nice" voice and a good range, okay ear. etc. but I was not a good singer. After years of lessons, and working hard on my singing with my home karaoke machine, I have improved A LOT (you wouldn't even believe how much).

You would be surprised how many "tricks" that they teach you for singing "classical" music also work great with pop, country, etc.

And if you plan to sing well into your senior years, than proper training is almost a must, or you will lose your voice and its strength. We all lose a bit over the years, but it's kind of like exercise, if you don't know how to use it, you will also lose it

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

[quote="]GillyAnd ritisroo, I would actually LOVE to be able to take vocal lessons. I think it would be a neat experience for me... but then, at the same time, i am terrified at what I might be told.... "technically" I am a HORRIBLE singer..... and, i only sing for fun. ( I DO understand music, and am a trained MUSICIAN, but hell, i haven't a clue what I am doing when I sing, i just open me damn mouth, and bellow:) But, i would love to hear feedback from someone trained to do so.... I like to be as good as I can be, at whatever I do... Heck, i still don't know what my REAL voice is.... I am lost;)

And, you figured out what that weird sound is, and didn't TELL ME??![/quote]

It's definitely true that most professional voice teachers (at least that I've seen) will tell you what you are doing WRONG more than what you are doing RIGHT. They don't have to be mean about it, though. You can interview the teacher first and find out what their style is and share your fears. If they are not sympathetic or understanding, look for someone else.

Just because the teacher points out negative things, though, doesn't mean you won't feel good afterwards because you will see improvement so quickly that you will be amazed! That's what I love about it. It's really exciting to try something the teacher suggested and see a great improvement.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Not everyone here wants to be a "star". There's nothing wrong with just improving for our own sakes, is there? That's why critique can be helpful. Personally, even though I just sing for fun, I have always enjoyed working on my voice and improving. Please forgive me if I misunderstood what you were saying

I have to agree with the person who said that karaoke is great for your self esteem. Coming here is that, for me, too. It's so cool to post a song and have people say such nice things! I assume everyone's being honest because I know I am very honest when I am on here. But not everyone has the same opinion.

Just my two cents!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

You are so right! It's just a matter of perspective.

I used to take voice lessons in high school and carpooled with this other girl. She could not match pitch, period. Yet the teacher was able to teach her how to do that and even to sing some songs. She even ended up with a singing part in our high school musical! Not to say she would ever be a great singer, but she did become passable. And you know what else, it improved her posture and gave her new confidence. It's not always about just your voice.

You are not never too old or too good to learn!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

All you can do is come up with your own standards and stick with them.

For me, if I would add the sub to my MP3 collection, I give it a 10. If I hear a flaws, I give it a 9. and so on down the line, depending on how many problems...but I don't think I've ever given anyone a 6 or below.

I am sort of, in the back of my mind, comparing the sub to others I've heard in live karaoke and on JOLT, as well as to the original song, if I've heard it.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

! I have those dreams...
We all have those insecurities and it's very natural. You can't ever really hear how you are or what other people hear (maybe that's a good thing!). I go through periods where I really hate my voice and never want to hear it again. My husband is always very honest with me when we go out to karaoke, but then again he doesn't have a singer's ear. He does tell me if he thought I sucked, though.

Don't forget, too, that all of us sound better in live karaoke than we do in our homemade recordings. I know I definitely do, judging from what people have told me. I do these CD compilations with JOLT people and I have met some of them in real life, too. The differences have been shocking. People I thought sucked in their recordings sound pretty good in real life karaoke.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Hmm, I can only speak for myself, but yeah, for the most part I only submit songs I think are pretty good, aside from a few fun seasonal ones.

I also assume that if I didn't get many comments, it might mean that people didn't like it as much and they just didn't want to tell me that. But you never know why people don't comment, either...could be timing, they don't know the song, type of music, all sorts of things. I try not to think about it

But I also ahve to say...I go and forth on whether I like the songs or not. Sometimes I love them and then later, I hate them. So maybe you liked the song when you submitted it but you didn't realize until later that it wasn't your best effort...?

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

I am enjoying this thread, too!

I do want to point out, though, that I have seen people make negative comments about other people's singing, and then when I listen to them, they have the same problems (or worse!). So then I figure, they are not just being mean, they are totally clueless. But I can see why some people might take offense at the comments, if they are better singers than the person telling them that they are out of tune or something.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

That's a good analogy. And just like some teachers give all A's or grade very high, and others are tough, so it is here with the rankings. And your overall ranking is like your grade point average.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~