Karaoke Forums

Stevers,

This thread has been quite informative for me so far, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I think it's wonderful that this website seems to be so versatile, and that people can use the site to interact in diversely varied and personal ways that meet their own needs as long as they stay within a certain criteria. This site seems like the kind of place where people who approach music as serious-minded trained professionals can roll up their sleeves and get down with their bad selves right along side the people who are here to just have fun, and every level in between.

, and you seem to be doing fine with the quoting.

Lin

I can't speak for Jazzy of course, but yeah... I think that's pretty much the best way to approach it. Of course, I try to focus on the elements that are less 'subjective' than others (like pitch for example) to be fair, but ratings will *always* be subjective to a certain degree.. but as long as we have humans critiquing instead of perfectly programmed electronic judges (not an impossibility, but a frightening thought), we will have to deal with an element of subjectiveness.



It is not possible to be human and TRULY objective.. but I *try* to be as objective as possible, whether it's with my 'friends', or with those I don't generally get along with. I'm sure any of the folks I consider to be 'friends' would testify that I am just as quick to point out room for improvement on their subs as anyone else's... also those who have disagreed with me would have to admit that when I hear a sub of theirs that is extremely good, I will say so. I have to be that way, or I would quickly lose respect as an 'honest critiquer'.



Very true

Ok, Steven... I'm impressed.

You win the 'FIRST PERSON TO MAKE SYBERCHICK LOOK UP A WORD' award...

You win...

A year's supply of Marshmallow Fluff!!!
You can claim your prize at any local Syber-mart. Just present this coupon (now where did I put that coupon...)

Good points, Seby.. and well taken.

Love your new blinkie

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Ok, Steven... I'm impressed.

You win the 'FIRST PERSON TO MAKE SYBERCHICK LOOK UP A WORD' award...



I have to get my moneys worth out've this word-a-day calender. I figured if I adumbrate obviating content with superfluous abstruse albeit obtusely bloviated verbiage people will think I know what I'm talking about


Lin, yep. This is a fascinating aspect of music for me. I've accompanied vocalists for years, and often wonder how to differentiate between a very good amateur singer, and a professional in the popular music industry. What the difference is in vocal ability, or whether or not vocal ability isn't the actual factor that keeps some of these semi-pro's out've the industry. Whether or not appearance, who they know, personality, not wanting to get into the industry, are bigger factors here. I never thought about these aspects regarding singers before. Remember when I said that I was more impressed with Jason's performance of "Music of the Night", than Michael Crawfords ? That started me questioning my own ability to understand some of these aspects.


Syberchick, regarding "but I *try* to be as objective as possible, whether it's with my 'friends', or with those I don't generally get along with."

That's EXTREMELY difficult, I might try, yet I know I would fail miserably. I will critique a friend privately honestly. Yet in a displayed forum, I will only post a VERY high score. When you think about it, what does it say about your friendship when among all the 9's and 10's, you honestly post a 6. AO

It says ... you are consistent & honest. Remember, CRITIQUING isn't about your friendship. Friend or not... if you want to be credible... and you think your "friend's" performance is a 6, ya better be giving them a 6. 'Specially if you've given someone else a 6 who has provided a comparable performance





.... unfortunately though, it also makes a lot of folks stop reading the thread & contributing. FFT ....

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

yah umm......



>there. there's my contribution to this thread.<

_________________

Thank you and Thanks!!! Made it myself

now see... all of those words I know...



The difference between a 'very good amateur singer' and a 'professional in the popular music industry'??? Publicity, plain & simple. (well, that and usually money)



Well, with most of MY friends, they actually *respect* me for being honest and they count on me giving them feedback when they sub (at least that's what some of them have told me). If my good friend deserved a '6' on a performance, I'd give them one (and they all know that), but fortunately... and I'm not sucking up here, I seem to have made friends with some of the more talented people on this site. Now, whether or not that has to do with my praising them (honestly) on their subs, I don't know... heheh For the most part, I am able to get the same honesty and feedback from them in return.

ROTFLMAO Crystal (gotta love 'peewee')

OLOL!!!

Did that come from that website of the guy who does different expressions on request?? He's too funny.

This morning I commented on one sub by Palma that it was just TOO good. I mean I can tell a pro when I hear one. Well, oops, turns out at 15 years old she is a pro and is performing heavily.

Not too get all philisphical here, but up until 2 years I had never heard live karaoke. When the scene began grabbing gigs away from us, just like a DJ at at club versus a live band, I went to and performed with Syber or first Karaoke thing.

I had seen it in movies. Classic. Actually the scenes from Angel (the series) in demon Karaoke bar, was some of my first exposure to the whole thing. I kinda saw it as people getting really drunk who weren't singers and just for the hell of it, stumbling up there and going for it.

Well, haven't been to a strip club or bought a men's magazine for years (I mean with spam we all get) but long ago, except in maybe Playboy, the females who went into the Adult area, or later online, often were a little hard edged and not that pretty. With the competition in modeling and porn, movie star quality females pop up in my email trash box frequently.

So it has become with Karaoke... I think. It is gettting competitive people. You have stars coming in here put up subs. You have professional musicians, songwriters, and studio grade mixmasters who really know their stuff.

You have little Suzy Q who is just learning to sing, but is good, armed with Cool Edit, a head set, and tweaking with her EQ, echo, and noise reduction doing tracks we could have not done twenty years ago with the equipment around.

I heard subs with zero noise and hiss. There is no mike hum on my new headset, and the vocal quality freq response is almost better than my ancient Shure which was the star of it's day.

It is said that a mark of the aged is the inability to adapt to change. And like it or not, quality is going way up here in general. It is so cool in a way to find other serious professionals in here putting up subs. And we can discuss heavy duty music pro stuff at agonizing length.

That should not keep even the non-singers from boldly grabbing a karaoke track and whatever their talent, putting it up just to "DO IT".
I almost think we should have a "Totally Just for Fun" although this would be redundant.

I must admit. Syber and I really benefit as we work on our album from the feedback here. Yep, we get a few cheap shots. But did you ever write a song, an original, and wonder, how people would like it. Imagine here, just like the screening of a movie or series, we can put a tune out there to the world.. and this is the world isn't it and get feedback.

We wanted to find singers for our album and we were told - go to Karaoke bars - well, this is one better. Especially, since I don't drink or smoke, so I don't get the euphoric haze while I am listening to the singing. What better place to look for singers.

There is one point on critiquing that I think is important. I don't like rap. And since I don't, asking me to critque a rap song is not going to work.
In fact, Syber and I are into Alternate and Goth pretty deep.

There are exceptions, because I have found a number of people on here who like country and hard rock and even alternate - in fact many types of music. But there are hard core country singers who preference is old country and let me tell you, Country is a major force in the music world. My first really big money paying band I played in did country, and I have played country on tour, but I do try to move forward, at least into modern country (Jewel) and 21st century musicians.

I could critique really Gilbert and Sullivan light opera on here. I should sub stuff from the Mikado or 20's and 40's singing.

Singing can be a traumatic experience. So far I have never performed on stage and not done well. But if you get up and you don't have some kind of voice, unless you are a very curvy female or total hunk male, people can be pretty cruel.

I realize my comments concerning the additional latitude given to attractive singers who are a little lacking vocally are not well received, but I have seen it. Many times these lookers evolve into talented singers.
I met Grace Slick and we sat with their group and Gracie was a model when they pulled her in, and she was meant for a showpiece. The real songwriter I talked to and learned guitar from, was the power behind the group. Same thing in Fleetwood with Stevie. In the mixing area, with her singing she was way flat and the sound tech had to physically tweak the voice track in the early recording to put her on pitch.

But there she was, the cute little blonde gypsy (not really a gypsy) while Mick on the droooms was the real force behind it.

Peter Townsend could hardly sing, but was a songwriter incredible. I would always see him singing along while waving his arm through the air in Who legendary.

Could Peter have survived a critique vocal wise here, maybe not. Stevie,
definitely not.

So we have some who can truly critique a performance down to the eq slider that is off by a few decibels and vocal nuances and slides, and jumps, and etc.

I like raw myself. Show me a singer with no backup, straight voice, no echo, zip, that is hot, and you have yourself a real artist. But in these times you can take a warbling voice, amp it, and make a super star who live and without backup sucks.

Well bla, bla, bla .. huh my daily rant.

Now back to writing music.

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

I needed some clarification on this. When people talk about "professional in the industry" are they talking renouned and respected famous voice that most know from some media performance ? or does this also include the singer in the nightclub that makes money none of us have heard of ?




I agree with you, yet still, this is a VERY hard thing to do. What it might mean however, is that I don't have the constitution to critique."Total honesty" among we flawed beings is something I don't understand. This reminds me of the stories of the person turning in their"so-called" friends to college social, and academic integrity boards for cheating, or stealing. I never understood this mentality. Even though I am a relatively honest person let's face it, as Syberchick stated total objectivity is close to impossible for we humans flawed with emotions. Where is the line between the person turning in their good friend, and the unloyal idiot who betrays their own (perhaps turning in his own mother for stealing a candy from the bulk bin of a retail store). The best I could do in the critiquing of a friend TOTALLY honestly in this type of displayed feedback system, would be to talk privately, and explain that there is a conflict of interest here, and I shouldn't critique them at all. Fortuneately however, what we are doing in here, isn't actually critiquing




I would like to think that I could. I've been in the industry. Yet I am questioning my ability to discern such differences based upon a few performances I am hearing in here. I can't hear a difference between a few of these performers covering others songs, and the quality of someone like Andy Williams covering the same tunes. A few of these people sound just that good. Can that be ? or has my ear gotten soft ? I toured for 9 years off and on as an instrumentalist. Yet like I said, I'm the guy that backs you vocalists. My listening skills are pretty limited, I know how to accompany, and follow a vocalist.

JVJ,
I need to start a technical musicians thread someplace in here. I have questions regarding technical ability to translate songs, and the actual "Excellent ear".

Well... If I have read this entire thread correctly... and critquing is SUBJECTIVE rather than objective (which most if not all here are saying) ... then YES what you are doing here IS critiquing, Steve.

You've said it yourself... there is no way to OBJECTIVELY critque. The Human-ness in each us is there.. and will influence what we hear, think and say. And the definition of critique includes the words "an opinion".

So, regardless of fame, experience, training.. yada yada yada ... I think it has been generally concluded that we are critiquing... and that critques are our own personal opinions... perhaps touched by some background or knowledge... or simply by how something "hits us in the chest". On here, regardless of who critques... we just have to remember that we are hearing their "opinion".... Some won't like that I've said this... but bottom line is.... its the truth. If Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder, Celine Dion, or Carole King told me they liked or disliked my singing.. even if they gave me detailed explanations ---> given what has been written .... over and over and over and over and over again ... in this thread... they would all just be "opinions".. that I can take to heart... or throw out with the bath water, 'cause after all... they would JUST be opinions.

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

It would be the former of the two.




Ah! But you see, Steven.... there is a world of difference between giving 'honest solicited feedback' to someone (and that in itself can BE an act of friendship), and 'betraying' your friends by 'turning them in' for something (and in this case, I would assume we mean something technically illegal, but not necessarily immoral).

In fact sometimes 'unsolicted' feedback is an act of friendship (for example, and of course this would be done privately instead of publicly, telling your friend they have something between their teeth or making them aware of something that could otherwise embarrass them if you didn't). Before the 'critique me' option was in place, we had no way of knowing if the person submitting actually WANTED feedback or not, but now with that option in place, we can feel *mostly* comfortable providing critiques to those who ask for them... supposedly....

deleted duplicate post

Syberchick, I'm not talking about giving feedback to a friend. I am talking about the displaying of it for all to see. In the analogy I gave, "In such a setting among 9's and 10's displaying the 6" I stated I would give actual feedback in private.

Yes Cindy, analysis or critiquing the process of critiquing. In a few exceptions to give examples I also critiqued Jazzy, and Jason


I'm trying to get a better understanding of both the artistically technical aspects, and psychological aspects of the critiquing process, as well as the "displayed" critique. Rating in public is what complicates this I suppose, and yes... I'll look the more technical aspects of this process up on my own time

Ok, I see your point.



At least you didn't say 'enemas'...