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Yeah it all starts to get really complicated.. but I think for the most part, it can be broken down to the simplified critiquing standards many of us are trying to use.. for example:

Is the singer generally on pitch? How is their timing? Do they convey emotion in their song? Do they have good diction, can you understand them clearly? Are they using appropriate dynamics? How is their control (are they wobbling around on their vocals, or are the vocals smooth and strong?) Are they constantly running out of breath? How is their mixing? Is the vocal track too loud or soft? Is the track humming and making unpleasant noise?, etc etc....



At least, that's the stuff I focus on (and sometimes other things if I notice something really standing out).

Jazzy - I think those sections need to be added to the FAQ...

Very good points gal.

Ooh! & I'm still hoping for you feedback on my two (hopefully) 'better' subs... 'overload' & 'the metro'. Yes, of course I want honesty & suggestions. Thanks!

!! yep, it DOES happen (and the other way around too.. ie "you gave me a 6, so i'm gonna give YOU a 6") . Stuff like that will always happen, and like Jazzy said, we can attribute it to 'karma' or whatever, but there's no sense in getting all worked up over the difference of a point or two in scoring. As many have said 'this aint no contest' (unless of course you are competing with yourself, which I try to do to some degree... always trying to improve myself).

Syber and I have taken the official plunge and should be Deluxe members by nightfall. Yes, I know, my pic is a little unusual, but it is me and I think for 437 I look, well better than I should. That night in Prague with Syber after the Mozart concert - she could have warned me!!!

But back to basics, I think we are getting a little Frenchie on the critique word. Since this evolves from the word criticism, the inference is for many. something negative.

What is worse is that now comment only has become very much, nice critique only, but then if it is negative it becomes a critique.

And since - (although I often play the backup track) since few play the music, you can't really evaluate the music, except for the mix. I think for newbies, it is helpful to say, the voice is too soft, your recording is distorted, you have so much echo you sound like you're in the bat cave, helpful comments.

Voicewise, if you opt for other than fluff, then I think there are a few glaring positive and negative criticisms which should not be looked at as being hostile.

If you can't stay on pitch, it's not good and you shouldn't get a 10
Just blasting out, singing loud, or emotionally singing poorly, rates high in enthusiasm and low in performance.

A good critque gives stroke as well as suggestions. Tell someone what was good about their sub as well as other points.

But I guess, mostly, if you don't want kisses or hisses, why put your stuff up for people to listen to. A sub is a performance anyway you slice it. Just misc. rants.

jeanvaljean

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Syber, I wouldn't comment on pitch if a person in here has an inability so severe that they "generally aren't on pitch". In my opinion a person who submits a performance that isn't generally on pitch falls into the "just for fun" category. Such a person either shouldn't be asking for a critique, or they really lack the ability to hear just how seriously flawed their performance is. I would think anything short of "ear training dude"in an email, or private message won't benefit them. I just can't believe that a person would submit a generally out of pitch performance knowingly, and be masochistic enough to ask for a critique.


JVJ, this is exactly what I believe:

"But I guess, mostly, if you don't want kisses or hisses, why put your stuff up for people to listen to. A sub is a performance anyway you slice it."


Yet what should be the case, often isn't. Some are of the grade school mentality where they still want the A grade, even though little effort, or skill went into the performance. These subs, the seriously flawed subs showing an obvious inability, and the obviously just for fun subs, I'd probably not critique.

Actually... I DONT really listen to the radio. I was just saying that probably MANY people use that as a criteria.. some standard to compare subs to. But heck, what do I know? *shrug*

Nah, I can't stand the 'top 40' either... blech.. used to be some cool rock/alternative stations back in CA, but WV is running a little short on radio station variety. Pretty much leaves me with Public Radio... when I choose to listen (and seldom even then). heheh

Welllll.... I could point out a few....

Fortunately, they're usually pretty good natured about it.

Syber typed:

"Yeah it all starts to get really complicated.. but I think for the most part, it can be broken down to the simplified critiquing standards many of us are trying to use."


It's a very complex, and multifaceted area. I wanted to start a thread regarding this because it does incorporate reading between the lines in such a venue Fact is, not all that ask for a critique can really handle one. In order to spare feelings, the greater talent among the relationship between subpar perfomer's submission / Critiquing party . Might be the skill of the evaluator to know how to delicately handle a situation.


(shutting up now before many more people start to think the new guy is a redundant drama queen, with OCD)

Very true Jazzy.... however, there is an expected "content", that a teacher is generally looking for when reading the essay. How well did the student.... relay their knowledge of the content (and if they are so inclined, may take grammar, spelling etc into account). They then "grade/critque" ... using the expected content as their "guide" for determining the grade. (Unless its a Personal opinion essay.... and then of course, there is no guideline). Do I understand from your comments that you feel song subs are more like Personal Opinion essays... where all you can really "critque" is the "grammar...style... spelling"....so to speak? If so .... I like that idea... but, then comments will have to be considered OPINIONS.... not GOSPEL....



I think .... Just For Fun.... is saying.. this has flaws but it was fun and I want to share. In that case... its not necessary to point out flaws. It wasn't done for RANKING.

If it says Please Critique... then its fair game. If the person listening is inclined to point out flaws... its been ALLOWED and even ASKED FOR by the submitter.




I've seen what you are saying... both in Just For Fun comments... and in the CRITIQUE comments. I think its human natue to praise your "friends"... and you may not even realize that you've gone overboard. I read one critique... (and these two people seem very close on here) ... that said something like... I couldn't find anything at all wrong with this.... when even the subbmitter had said ... Its flawed, but go ahead and tell me what ya think. It wasn't a 10 performance... but I do believe that it received a 10 from that friend. (Song ranking is 10). But then, I read another critique by this person... on a singer's sub that they weren't so close with ... and it had a lot of "this and that" comments. I listened to both.. and would have ranked both between @ 8.5 ? (or better yet, Good to Very Good) ... if I ranked (which I RARELY do). But in this case I'll bet singer 2 didn't get a 10. (Song ranking 9.6 or something like that). Human nature ... is hard to fight. Being a truly objective listener and commenter is incredibly difficult.

Not sure what, if anything can be done about inflated reviews or scores... except.... Accept that they are gonna happen.

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Shotgun CC wrote:

Not always.... I know for me "Just For Fun" is just that! When the Showcase first opened... everyone had to get critiqued... that was the only option. Then.... we got that changed to critique or comment only. For many of us.... we have been critiqued to death and just want to submit for fun now and share our music among friends. That is now changing as well.... because it seems like "Just For Fun" is for the people who "can't sing"! OR.. they just can't handle the "TRUTH"...Many have left because it seems the "fun" part just gets ridiculed to death anymore. We are either on one side of the fence or the other.... sad!

TOO LATE!!! I'm just joking!! As I said before, I've really enjoyed this thread even though I do tend to get lost now and then...

Very true Sheree...Every now and then I'll do a song for critique but for the most part I want it to be just for fun so I don't have to worry during the whole damn song, what is so & so gonna say about it. I was in an online comp not long ago and I remember when it was over with, it was such a relief to sub a song for fun once again. When you know someone is listening just to point out your flaws, it sucks the joy out of you.
I do like the option where you can have critique or just for fun because some songs I might like to have critiqued but for the most part, I just want to have fun with my friends, listen to new people and make new friends!

I can't critique...I don't know how, so when I did rank on very rare occasions it was a 9 or 10. Which of course is subjective...a lot depends on what really hits you in the heart. When dreamer1962 was here, I positively gushed over his songs. In my eyes he was the perfect 10, better than most I've heard on the airways, whereas a friend thought he was pretty good, but didn't like that style of music or voice. So...does he deserve that 10 from me and maybe an 8 from someone else? Who knows? That's why I don't rank or critique.

edited to correct spelling..hope I got them all...grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

That's just it -- as I've mentioned before. There are actually quite a few people that don't want a critique but they want to see their songs RANKED because of that Top Ranked Singers/Songs list. In order to hit that list they have to be RANKED which is the 'CRITIQUE' option.

So you don't dare give them a low ranking because even if you explain why you gave it to them they will be mad because you blew their goal - scoring listing on that list. That's all that matters to them - they don't care if you have valid points or not.

AGAIN - I emphasize -- NOT everyone who's selecting Critique falls under that - BUT there are PLENTY that do.

Cindy (Shotgun), The "reference point" issue is where you and I seemed to have a bit of a disagreement here. I agree with you however, that the actual criteria for critique in an area of an art form loaded with a diversification of styles doesn't apply in this forum. Critique is being used as just a generic word. Actual frame of reference for an actual critique I believe involves perspicacity and sophisticated subject knowledge. One might even argue philosophically in such a context, that in order to Critique in an art form today, the evaluating person should be extremely creative, as well as grounded in a traditional theory. In the arts, isn't it the innovative singer that becomes big ? This is a constantly evolving art. I would hope a person Critiquing my performance would take into consideration, that what might be a traditionally different spin on a song, might not be a flaw within my performance, yet might show a promising signiture style for tomorrows style :fad:.

I understand this get's abstract, and appears to be "overkill", yet I still find it fascinating, and certainly not offtopic. I wouldn't think that one who critiques in the performing arts, uses the same criteria as one who critiques within a scholastic setting.

Sooooo NOT TRUE!!! I hear FANTASTIC talent on the Just For Fun subs... and being the flawed, human, regular ole average Karaoke singer that I am... I came here .... JUST FOR FUN... and that's how I sub (when I get the chance.. <<--- another story ). Sorry to infer that the JUST FOR FUN subs.. were all flawed. Not at all what I was trying to say ....

I just meant... those folks are doing this for FUN .... don't want critique.... just want to sub ... and share. But... you are right Sharokee... some of this does start ya thinking about leaving. Too many other things in life are stressful... would be nice if this could stay more "light hearted".

Thanks for pointing that out.... hugs ~~

Love your signature, btw!!

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Of course not Steve. My POINT is... to RANK.... in MY opinion.... involves knowing what constitutes PERFECT PERFORMANCE.... if I know that .. then I can judge accordingly. But... according to what I am reading here.... PERFECT PERFORMANCE is subjective "the ear of the beholder"... so to speak. Which is fine.... cause.... I have 2 !!

Take Care.....

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when i first came to this site...i would always want to be critiqued...then as soon as someone did critique me...i did'nt like it and got upset about it...so then i just started singing for the fun of it....but i have now been opening myself up for critiques once again...because i want to learn from where im going wrong...many of you might of noticed that i have been subbing alot of Buddy Holly songs just recently...the reason i want to be critiqued on these is because i actually do a Buddy Holly Tribute show in Real Life...my next gig is in Feb...so i need to make sure im onn form with them .....ermmmm, i was going to make a point here...but i just nipped down for a cup of coffee and forgot what the point was i was going to make

Perhaps, the talent to sing creates a need to be heard, in that we feel fulfilled when we bring that which is inside of us out into a state of connectedness with others; and feedback would be an essential component of the relational dynamic between voice and listener, whether it be in the form of: verbal critique, applause, head bobbing, toe tapping, a few tears of joy streaming down a listener's face, or even a scream coupled with hand covered ears, etc. Sometimes, I suspect that the worst thing a listener could do is "nothing." <shrug>



I totally agree with that, Cindy, and for what it's worth, I think that play and hard work go well together and I love that "Just For Fun Pieces " and "Performances Subbed for Critique" co-exist on this website, because music is vast and can be appreciated and responded to on sooooo many levels.

I'm pretty sure that when I submit my first song to the forum, I'm going to do that because:
1) it will be fun, and
2) I'd like to learn to be a better songtress, so I will want to be critiqued, yet not ranked.

Obviously, it also requires a little intestinal fortitude to put your sub out there to be critiqued, I think it's important to remember that opinions are no less subjective than talent, and most all people are prone to their bias. Perhaps, like critiquing, learning from others is a skill in and of itself.



I hear that, Tigger. That sounds like confidence to me, and I would think that's a very healthy attitude for a performer to have, particularly when nervousness can so drastically alter and inhibit a person's vocal instrument. It takes guts to get up there and sing!



Amen to that, Miss Milo. Music is perfect for that. Music...<dreamy sigh>

Lin

"PERFECT PERFORMANCE is subjective "the ear of the beholder"... so to speak. Which is fine.... cause.... I have 2 !! "



Cindy, Personally I believe whenever you have variables such as these, the outcome is always subjective. "opinion" of a "perfect performance". Even if ten judges deem the performance as "perfect", this doesn't preclude the subjective aspect.

Well then........there ya go!!!

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