Karaoke Forums

FIX?! but... but.. I AM PERFECT!!!!

Stop laughing!! darn it, STOP! I can HEAR YOU!!!

err be careful with that...



Now see, I've been reading a lot about that lately myself. It would certainly be interesting to do more research into. Interesting you should bring up 'tempered instruments'.. hubby (JVJ) was considering starting a thread about that very subject (the 'well tempered clavichord' for example).

Being able to recognize & match pitch is obviously a skill that can be taught, I've even heard of partially deaf people who learned to develop that skill.

I dunno.. I for one will continue (for the most part) to mention pitch if a person is off (and wants critiques), but again, I don't plan to go into detail on it unless either it's only a few spots I can point out easily (and I know that the person wants to know), or they specifically ask me. Mostly because I have learned that people like to know why the recieved whatever rank they are given. Just my POV and experience here.

pitch is a fascinating subject Syberchick. A skilled violinist will play slightly different fingerings on the 3rd and 7th of the ascending, and descending scale to "trick" the ear. The tempered instruments (keyboards, keyed, valved,and fretted instruments) are just approximate tunings, or compensated tunings of sorts. Follow tuning of the circle of 5ths on a piano, and the outter ranges will be far out've tune. Use a strobe to tune a piano rather than the human ear, and the piano will also be outve tune.

Hmm.. I may not be a highly skilled vocalist, but, i think one thing i DO know is pitch. I played the french horn, and trombone (and other brass) for a very long time, and pitch is incredibly important, and EASY to be off on... (trust me, , I was forced to give brass clinics to youngsters..... NOT fun... "can i PLEASE take a permanant marker and draw the notes on my slide?" AHHH!!)


Mind ya, that doesn't mean i SING in tune.. , I just know when I am off when I do it, and listen to it.... and am really sensitive to it.....


Now, my husband... can't sing to save his life.... even his speaking voice is dull. (by dull i mean, bordering on monotone). He has no, little "peaks and valleys", and maintains a consistant tone. Now, put that into singing? not good... He simply CANNOT match a note, sung or played, and can't even stay in tune when singing along WITH the original music. YOu can also take a well known song... like twinkle twinkle, and play it, with a few notes off, and he doesn't even notice. Because of this, he can't play an instrument... because, while learning, he has no idea if he is playign the right notes, because he doesn't know how it SHOULD sound... this is gettign confusing...

Yes, I am h oping my daughter doesn't take after him in that regard:)

I tried the single-F french horn. Incredibly difficult instrument. Just the embechure on a small mouthpiece like the french horns, makes it really tough. Pretty instrument, yet a difficult one. MUCH more difficult than trumpet





I started learning instruments around the time I learned to talk 45+ years ago. My voice however isn't an istrument I feel I have been able to catch onto however. It is tough to tune, I've found by the time the sound has left my mouth, it's already too late to finetune the notes. Than there's the timber. Breathing technique, phrasing , learning how to project. Using your whole head as a sound chamber such as the technique used by the Opera singer. Very difficult instrument.

I agree with Steven, Cindy...you made GREAT points girl!!!

And you nailed it when you said:

"But to be honest, some of the problems that are still coming up is because some people don't want to be critiqued at all even tho they've marked critique."

Nailed it!! It's interesting how this same core issue comes up even in the face of the killer hard work Phill's done in the SS (tryin' to help us avoid perpetual painful conflicts)....it's something in our human natures I guess. Damn I hope he ever comes up with the formula to fix it; might not happen. I think singing is so personal that people have mountainous amounts of ego invested in it.

Jazzy, Steven, Syber: how about that issue when it comes to being an excellent singer - is it of benefit to the singer to strive NOT to become overly or stubbornly in love with their own voice to the point where they truly cannot hear what people are trying to tell them to HELP them improve? Is suspension of ego a vital part of becoming a good, pleasant-sounding singer?

Perhaps humility is a virtue everywhere in life, not just with singing, so that we may grow as people? Hmmmm....look forward to your replies.

(Steven I'm very happy you've joined this site!! I think you'll be a great asset.)

Yes, that's true.. if a violin had frets, it wouldn't work out well as it does (for the most part) on a guitar, because you have to adjust the fingering (yes, i played for quite a while... never became an incredibly skilled violinist, but I was pretty good).



Yes, it's fascinating to me that although music is mathmatical (I'm not btw), 'tuning' and such cannot be done to the precise mathmatical equations that SHOULD work. Perhaps it's something bordering on quantum physics.. the way natural laws (as we know them) break down on a molecular level. I would simply think it is because of the change of size of wave oscillations in changing pitch, but even that doesn't calculate out precisely right... or does it?

Steven- yes... french horn is probably one of the more difficult instruments.... was hard for my embrochure, because, i also played low brass... (think.. BIG mouth pieces)... it didn't hurt my french horn playing, it hurt the tuba playing. I could switch from the tuba TO the horn, but not the other way around. Lol, very odd. My second instrument (the first being the horn) is the euphonium though. Kind of like.. a big easy trumpet:)

Ok, THIS is off topic. Sorry, all.

ROFLMAO ......... Gilly, Gilly... come back here. No one is gonna hurt ya, girl. In here, Im just an average singer... with a bit of background in voice... but mostly... just an averge singer who loves to listen to others sing. YOU included.... who by the way... sings quite well, IMO.

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
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Lol, the woman who worked with ME was plain EVIL!! or, at least, it seemed that to be when I was younger:) (I couldn't hear very well as a child, and didn't speak until I was a little over 4, now I don't shut up.. so, i guess we should blame my speech language pathologist:)

Actually, that is one of the reasons that I "mimic" well, and seem to pick up other peoples (singers) ... umm.. what is the word i am looking for here.. their style? I don't SOUND like anyone.. but, people often compare me to other singers.... Never mind, i am babbling. Anyways, I blame that:)

Anyways, nice to "meet" you:) I have no back ground in voice.. i just like to hear mine.. talking.. ALOT. (well, so my husband says:)

I'm familiar with the Baritone, Euphoneum, Sousaphone, and Tuba. I've experienced extreme dizziness attempting all of them

Lol, I could fit in my tuba case, and close it:) (My little sister also played the tuba, made for some problems in transportation:) I rarely rode the bus to school, .... or, was that because I was banned from it for smoking in the back? hmmm....

Thanks for the compliment Tigger.

You've brought up an interesting philosophical issue here, yet one that pertains to learning, and growing in ones craft.


Jazzy, Steven, Syber: how about that issue when it comes to being an excellent singer - is it of benefit to the singer to strive NOT to become overly or stubbornly in love with their own voice to the point where they truly cannot hear what people are trying to tell them to HELP them improve? Is suspension of ego a vital part of becoming a good, pleasant-sounding singer?


Level of excellence can still be ambiguous. To me many in here are excellent. I can't hear ANYTHING in their performance that doesn't sound polished, and perfect. Yet to these singers , they might be far from excellent in their own eyes, and have people they envy in their area of style, and skill. Naturally if they shut people out've their lives and become snobs, they might still remain great singers, Yet if they aren't willing to listen to those that can help them expand beyond their current limits, they might be shortchanging themselves. It's usually the protege that has to listen the most, and the hardest "excellence" is subjective. Assuming a person reaches a level in their skill most deem as gifted. Maintaining that level is VERY difficult.

"It's usually the protege that has to listen the most, and the hardest "excellence" is subjective."

I didn't understand this sentence....and you're welcome! You seem intelligent and objective, that is why I think it's good to have you here.

What pro singers do you think are at that level that is so hard to maintain? Now I'm curious. I love analyzing, or hearing analysis of, pro's because it provides me with a concrete example. Plus it's just fun.

But as far as my original question, I mean like amateur singers, or singers at this site. How can they really improve if they get defensive when they hear critique? Will they ever get better if they just think the messenger is being "mean" or bxtchy? That's what I meant by necessity of ego suspension. But now I'm thinking it isn't possible for some, so heck with 'em, I'll quit worrying about it and just worry bout meself.

Gilly, I used to ride to Jr High in a VW beatle with the neck of a string bass sticking out the window. I wasn't good enough to be a first violinist (wasn't interested enough in practicing actually). so I switched to the string bass.

Tigger,

I suppose what I'm stating, is that it is my experience at least regarding instrumentalists, that the best, of the best in their craft, at least while actively working in their field still take refresher lessons, some take lessons and have to practice even harder than any other level of skill (as in the case of many protege's) Yet almost ALL that excel rely heavily during their career on the support of others that also excel. Many have trainers. Ego as you say, can keep a person from growing. Yet many in the competitive areas have had their ego's smashed to bits many times over, and are humbled to the degree that they crawl to others for advice, no matter how "excellent" they appear to be. There should always be a balance of self respect, and humility.
Can a person be "excellent" without listening to others ? Yes
Alot depends on style of music too


To me this is foolish to do, and serves no purpose for betterment, yet a person can still be "excellent" and shut out criticisms at some point.

In a word? MOST DEFINITELY!!!

I know that one of the big problems with the 'divas' that can arrise, is when they want to sing something in a way that isn't complementary to their voice, but god forbid anyone should tell them otherwise!!

Everyone needs to keep that little voice at their ear 'thou art mortal'.

Tigger, the reason this question is so tough to answer, is that some of the best and most innovative in their areas were stubborn, and likely threw tantrums every step of the way. Yet they still were able to become "Diva's". I think alot of your question was answered in the "talent" vs "training" threads earlier.


While I think it's stupid for a person developing their skill to be obstinate. and resistent to criticism, and I agree there are stages where there is NO room for a persons ego to impede their developement. Some make it very big and are full of themselves, and might not listen to others.



This is tough to answer. I can't imagine in Opera a person can afford to be stubborn, and resistent to input. In ballad, sure they can.


I think one should always strive to not allow their ego to get in the way of their growth, yet in the performing arts there are some huge ego's.

I'm really talking about here though. At the level of becoming professional, I do think that the cream rises to the top (most of the time). In other words, there's no way a truly flawed performer, who refused to listen to people who told them of their singing flaws, is going to have any staying power in the industry. There's simply no one who'll want to listen to them.

But regarding here, on this site - if singers continually think people are being unfair and "mean" when they tell them of something flawed in their singing, then I don't see how they'll improve. If they're happy continually walking around in their royal clothes thinking they're hairy butt's not hanging out, no matter how many people are blinded by the garish site, then OK, I guess we can let 'em live in their land. At least they're happy. It's all a personal choice probably. I can't imagine not wanting to improve, but vive la differance, etc.

They won't.

Ego... is important as you work to improve.. it keeps you striving for better. However, it is also your biggest enemy if it closes your "ears & mind". We ALL want EVERYONE to like what we do, say, sound like... etc. Lets face it .. Karaoke is ego driven (Ya, I know some say they do it just for fun.... and I'm sure that is part of it... but, overall... it's the thrill of the spotlight... and the anticipated kudos ... that get most up to "take a swing".)

As with ANYTHING in life that you undertake, if you can't deal with the nature of your own "HUMAN-NESS", that being "less than perfect", Then, regardless of how "expert" one may be in a given area .... you'll never be able to "hear" critique and unfortunately you'll never be more than you are right now ~~ hence, my signature quote.

I hate it when someone says to me... "Your the expert---tell me what to do" ~~ I'm no expert ~~ The more I learn.. the more I realize how little I know!!

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]