Karaoke Forums

Again, what and where is the confusion? And confusion on whose part? False designation? How is display of the trademark misleading in this case, whether it's from the disc or shifted media? How does permission remove that 'confusion' or false designation to the people that see it?

My theory does not take over control of the trademark. Please explain how 'permission to media shift' eliminates confusion to the 'consumer' (patron, venue, ANYONE) viewing the trademark.

We, as hosts, are not displaying or promoting the mark to try to make money from selling discs or hard drives.

There's no quality control issue if all marks look the same, no matter HOW they're displayed (disc or media shifted with permission)

How can a consumer discern the difference between a trademark displayed from a disc or a trademark displayed from a file that has been media shifted with permission, simply just by looking at the trademark? How does media shifting with permission eliminate that confusion?

I'm simply trying to understand.

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DJ Don

Fair enough. One question at a time:



The confusion is on the part of the customers who are consuming the KJ's services--the venue and the patrons.

The confusion is regarding who made the goods that are in commercial use. The "origin" of goods is the party that is responsible for controlling their manufacture.

If the KJ uses original discs, the marks that are displayed correctly identify us as the origin of the goods, since we controlled the manufacture of the original discs.

If the KJ uses unauthorized copies, the marks that are displayed incorrectly identify us as the origin of the goods. (We aren't the origin of the copies and played no role in their manufacture.)

If the KJ gets our permission, however, we again become the origin of those goods because we have examined them and signed off on them.

The mark indicates us as the origin. If we are the actual origin, then there is no confusion. If we are not the origin, the presence of our mark confuses consumers into believing we are the origin.



Permission implies control. If we control, the presence of the mark correctly identifies us as the controlling party. If we do not control, the presence of the mark incorrectly (and confusingly) identifies us as the controlling party.



In most cases, that's technically true. However, you are selling access to your collection, and you are selling your services. If the brand doesn't matter, why do so many KJs who have pirated copies of everything ever made choose the SC version almost all of the time?



It's not just what the marks look like. It's what the goods look and sound like. I have investigated many KJs who use copied SC tracks that have display glitches, audio drop-outs, and other artifacts that are highly inconsistent with our brand image and that are of a much poorer quality level than we would ever tolerate in our own products.



The fact that the trademark as displayed from a disc and as displayed from an UNAUTHORIZED copy looks (or may look) exactly the same illustrates why there is confusion. We made one, and we didn't make the other, yet they look exactly the same. Our mark is supposed to indicate only SC as the origin of the goods.

Confusion in the marketplace is an interesting angle. Is the original trademark, as issued, still in effect? Or is it a subsequent issuance?

Likelihood of confusion in the marketplace is the only angle for trademark infringement. There is another category of trademark tort, called dilution, but that is based on a different set of criteria.

Our registrations for karaoke tracks are in force; one of them has been renewed twice, and the other is up for second renewal this year. We also have two registrations that cover entertainment services in the nature of karaoke shows, which issued a few years ago.

You are SOOOOOO full of it, Jim!! The singers don't give a rat's (@$%&#!) where the trademark came from. I have been to pirate shows, and I NEVER heard anyone say "Wow, is that an ORIGINAL SC mark, or is it a copy??" There is NO confusion out there!! NOBODY cares!! Only YOU and Slep! Why?? Suing KJs is the lazy man's way of making money!! It's much easier than actually making a product and selling it, especially when most of the other companies are able to get licensed for downloads, and you guys just can't seem to get it done. You can't even get enough people excited about the new stuff you PROPOSED to make, on THEIR dime!!Why, the whole list you gave us has already been released by every other company. We all have the those songs. Why would ANY of us buy them again??

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Well, dang it all...

I logged into Sunfly - place a very large order over $200 USD

Then at the very end when trying to pay - I discover:
If you are ordering from America you will not be able to proceed through to payment.

What the heck?

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Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

and they wonder why people just download karaoke for free.

Where have you been? This has been in effect for a few months now?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Some still have integrity. I have never downloaded a song for free.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

"Answer this hypothetical situation counsel regarding the two types:
A long-standing KJ that has purchased a quantity of SC-trademarked original discs AND licensed the gem series over the years, is purchasing what?

(a) CD+G discs of 8 or 15 karaoke songs each which they are not allowed to copy OR,

(b) A license allowing them to use the intellectual property on either the cd+g discs or gem series in the form of the audio, trademark, trade dress etc. associated with the original purchase that is contained on the discs.

You cannot select both, nor can you combine or divide these choices."

Sure they can. It is no different than a car dealer having three exact vehicles or a property manager having three exact units. All the same, no difference. However the dealer or property manager has the right to either sell, lease, or lease to own their product. I'm not sure why the concept is so difficult to understand. If you buy the car, you are free to sell it anytime and if you lease it, you have no right to sell it.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I have. From Karaoke-Version. They have free stuff there.

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DJ Don

Lol. Not talking public domain stuff.
Thank Walt Disney for screwing up how the copyright system works

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Claims have been made that 90% of all KJs are pirates. Policies like these only serve to raise that percentage.

ok...I have to say this....I remember..when I first joined Karaoke ...how everyone was on the legal kick...now when companys block USA patrons...from their stuff..I hear some of you talking about setting up a account..so you can get it anyway....that not right if they don't want us to have their downloads...then get their stuff legally...ex..Mr Entertainer ...basically did they same thing..however I found a legal company who buys their CDs and the sells them to me....All Im saying is that ..don't be jumping on people for not being legal if you downloading stuff that's not available to you legally....

It ok for the goose but not for the gander.....type of thing...

I realize that it was - but I received a message from SunFly that I could access my account. I figured they meant that I could order more music too!

Nope, I can only access my account to see what I've ordered in the past!

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Phill Cross
Webmaster, Host Provider & Part-Time “Technical” Problem Solver

KJ / MC


services provided by:
CROSS WEB TECH

what i see as people talking about it being different is money.
the "legal kick" is still going, ...don't steal. pay for what you use, simple as that.
as for the manus like MRE, here is why it seems so grey.
i, in AZ, can go south to Mexico in about 2 hours and buy anything i want without geoblocks whatsoever because Mexico is not excluded.
30 minutes is all that separates me and total freedom to BUY the music.
the rights holder (let's sar Rihanna for example) says "i'll take 35.8 cents for every karaoke track made (this is in the PRSformusic agreement they sign because they must specifically exclude themselves from karaoke). then the manu says "i want to sell these tracks for $1.99 each and from that i will pay Rihanna 35.8 cents each time i sell one"
i buy the track for $1.99, the manu get's the $1.99 they want for the track, Rihanna gets the 35.8 cents she wants.
if i do this in Nogales AZ, it is illegal and i am a low down dirty pirate, but if i go 2 minutes across the border into Mexico i am supporting the Manus and totally legal.
everybody gets paid the same, i just moved 30 feet.
and since i bought them there, i can bring them home.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I agree.... When everyone is getting paid, it's insane to have blocks for legal purchases. If someone wants to steal it, they already know how to get it, and they aren't paying a dime anyway.

This policy just hurts both the legitimate KJs, and the remaining business that support them. I'm sure both Zoom and SBI are working to fix this issue as losing the American market has really got to hurt.

But, at least we have something... Last night, Karaoke-Versions made $36 bucks off me because I had to keep buying songs that were not in my songbook for an Irish group (Dubliners, Dropkick Murphy's, etc.). Lots of Guinness and a bagpipe where involved, it was great! It could have been a very different night if I wasn't able to access legal downloads.

I just hate limping along, while pirates always have the latest music and I get that "Why does (KJ) have it then?". This needs to get fixed quick before we lose what little karaoke companies are left.

It's easier to just have an accessible PC in London

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-Chris

It's a good thing that the pirates are only in the USA and not in Europe anywhere.

I don't know where you came up with your information, but I can tell you that PRS collects between 5-8 pence per song sold on a download and that does not all go to the artist as they take their fees from it.