Karaoke Forums

I remember about 4 years ago, I read (in this Forum) that several NY KJs were named in one of SC's lawsuits. I saw the names listed in the document (I think InsaneKJ supplied the document), and I recognized one of the names. I confronted the KJ in question, and asked him about it. He said he was not aware that he was being sued. He even went as far as to say it was some guy in another State, and not him (if you're not even aware of being sued, how could you say that it was someone else from another state?). This particular Lawsuit had the KJ's real name listed (and yes, he did not operate with a fully legally owned library).

As far as results from that Lawsuit, I don't know if anything ever happened. This KJ still operates a regular show or two, and I am pretty certain that he does not own most of the tracks he has downloaded on his hard drive. Even before he converted from Disc to Hard Drive, he didn't own more than half of his library (they were copies of discs that he obtained from other KJs who shared their stuff). He also does not own/license/lease/rent (whatever term you want to use) a GEM set.

If the time frame was about 4+ years ago, you may be recalling a suit that was initiated by APS on our behalf (though without our direct knowledge). The law firm that was handling that suit was an Arizona-based firm, and it turned out that APS had not paid them as agreed, and they withdrew from the case. APS replaced them with a firm from somewhere upstate, I want to say Buffalo, but again failed to pay expenses as agreed. We found out about this stuff around the time we fired APS, and by that point we had no idea what the status of those defendants was, so we ended up dismissing the case without prejudice. We have two different attorneys and at least two investigators working for us in NYC right now, working through leads and through defendants we dismissed previously. I don't know how many suits have been filed recently, but it's several.

If you PM me the name, I'll check on it and let you know.

You're asking a pretty small sample size, but I think it's a fair question to ask.



You did provide us with that information, and we're working on it right now.

However, we did not say we would nail that pirate "to the wall, no settlement, no GEM, balls to the wall." That's not a promise we ever make, because there are too many things that are out of our control that can prevent it, and because we see taking that position as unreasonable (as do the courts). Most cases settle. Not just ours--that's most civil cases overall. But maybe you're right--maybe we should pick out an egregious offender and make an example out of him.

Mr. Harrington I have a suggestion...

As much as I and everyone else would like to see every lead acted upon, I understand that lack of funds, manpower, etc., prevents that from happening. So, is it at least possible to:

Call the venue owner on the phone. Inform him or her that there is a likely suspicion that their KJ is operating illegally and explain the ramifications of piracy and pirate KJ's.

When I'm out looking for new venues, I provide them with a paper on piracy. Here's an excerpt from it and one that you can have venue owners perform:

How do I know if a KJ is operating legally?

Unless acceptable certification has been provided, the best way to determine if a KJ is legal is to audit their song library. Here’s How: Ask your KJ to bring in ALL of their karaoke CD’s. Simply go through the KJ’s song book and pick out a random song. The KJ should then be able to produce the CD that the song is on (Original CD's, not copies or burns). Do this for about 25 to 50 songs. If the KJ has all of the CD’s for the songs you’ve selected, most likely he/she is legal. If they give you an excuse or are not willing to comply, don’t hire them. If you already did, get rid of them. The honest KJ will have no problem showing their CD collection. The pirate with 100,000 songs will! Why? Because there won’t be any CD’s.

After you have spoken to them on the phone, you can tell them that their establishment will be monitored and that they are at risk of a lawsuit if they continue to use illegally operating KJ's.

This would be better than doing nothing at all and may serve as a wake up call and a deterrent for bar owners. No bar owner wants to be threatened with a lawsuit. You can then inform them of the Safe Harbor program.

Please consider this. It doesn't cost anything to make a phone call and can be very beneficial to us all.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Alan, many of us do no not have discs for everything. Why?? We use download services, like Tricerasoft, and Karaoke version, and now, karaoke.net. So your way will not work. The venue owners may not accept download receipts, with your idea. So, unless you want to run out the people who use download services, you better reword that there letter of yours.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

True, but you also have discs as well. SC material has never been offered as downloads. Only discs. So, if this was explained to a bar owner, who would then watch for the SC logo on the screen, they can still ask to see those SC discs (audit). Knowledge is power. And let's face it, I'm sure every pirate KJ has every song that SC has ever made.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I keep all my email receipts from download purchases. I'd add that to the proof of purchase.

This would not work for me and several others on this forum. The venue would have to pick, maybe 20 songs, and I would come back the next day with corresponding cd's. Attached is an old picture which is less than 1/2 of what I own now. Craigslist is a wonderful thing

All I'm saying is, a phone call to the venue based on a lead we have submitted, cannot hurt. We know who the pirates are in our areas and where they're working. Receiving a phone call from PEP saying that their KJ is suspected of operating illegally and that they're setting themselves up for a lawsuit by hiring them can be a good thing. We'll see what Mr. Harrington has to say.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

A phone call...Really...If I were a club owner I would trust a phone call like that about as much as I would a phone call from the IRS saying that I owed money or one from the FBI telling me I was under suspicion of doing something illegal.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

I'm not sure that a phone call would produce any results at all, and our preference is to do stuff like that in writing so we can document exactly what was said and when. (Very few venue owners respond in a meaningful way even when we send them stuff in writing, but at least it's documented for when we sue them later, having warned them against hiring pirate KJs.)

We have a nice-looking color brochure that we are happy to supply you with to deliver to venues you think are hiring pirates, or you can identify those venues to us, and we'll send it out. It explains the Safe Harbor program as well as the venue's obligation to screen out pirates from its hiring process.

Talk about a typo!!

It's just a typo folks..

People have been handing over information on well known pirates for years now and very lilttle if any positive results have been apparent to the legal KJs out there. There seem to be more pirate shows than ever before and now they're even using the GEM series tracks at their shows. Most karaoke singers have never checked out a karaoke website looking for information on piracy. All they know about karaoke is what they see at their favorite shows. All they care about is if the KJ has their favorite songs to sing. The younger crowd wants to sing the new favorite songs that they hear on the radio. That pretty much leaves Sound Choice out of the discussion for these people. The local KJ only cares about having regulars at their shows so they can keep their gigs. Young people party more than the older crowd and they spend more money on SHOTS and Top shelf drinks. The younger generation of karaoke fans have all grown up in the era of downloading things for free and they are not going to care whether or not the KJ is legal or not. Sound Choice's plan of putting their own KJ's into local establishments will be another failed plan in my opinion. Their certified KJ may live far from the venue that they place him in and the KJ will not know the people who live close to the venue. Those karaoke fans will go to the establishment that hired the KJ that they have known and followed for years. The local pirate KJ will more than likely have whatever song you want to sing while the goody goody two shoes KJ that Sound Choice places in your area will have a limited song library with very little new material if they are strictly Sound Choice based. I have never heard a single person say that they avoid a particular karaoke show because the KJ gets his music for free. The public doesn't care even a little bit about karaoke piracy and neither does the average bar owner. the witch hunt has been going on for almost 7 years now and I haven't seen or heard about a single witch being burned at the stake. The fear no longer exists and it is business as usual for the pirates.

OK, it was just a thought. Thanks for your feedback.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

That's a lot of assumptions about how we'll proceed, which aren't correct.

We recognize that there are shows where newer material will be required. That's why we've committed to buying and placing that material when it's needed, regardless of who the producer is, and to giving our operators the ability to obtain it on-demand at the facility. If all goes according to plan, we expect to be the single biggest commercial customer for Digitrax, KSF, and KV. We are not limited to using SC at all.

One thing we've noticed is that when we get active with lawsuits in an area, the pirates go underground. Facebook pages go private or get deleted, Twitter feeds go silent, and social media promotion stops. When you call a venue that has a pirate operating and ask, "Hey, who does your karaoke?" you get a non-response, like "We're not allowed to give out that information." Why wouldn't a legal KJ want to be identified, when that could lead to more work or more patrons at his shows? The reason is usually simple: When being discovered and sued is a real possibility, pirates can't promote.

And we can. We are working to integrate social media tools into our operation so that we can build the kind of following you're talking about. Our KJs will be local to the areas where they work in almost every case.

In short, we aren't planning to compete solely on the basis that we're legal, but also because we have the best available music, played on high-quality equipment, with charismatic hosts.

Or did you think we were just going to half-ass it? Nope, not at all.

Besides, a phone call, could also scare a venue owner, if they are the skittish type, and they may fire the host working for them, and then it turns out that host was NOT a pirate, and lost a show for no reason. That certainly isn't fair.

THEN, lets say you make that call, and the KJ doesn't use SC. Well SC isn't interested in that KJ. I do not use SC so they have no interest in me, no matter what I do. So there would be no investigation. Hey, a pirate could use ANY brand on the planet, except SC, CB and Stingray, and Pep can do NOTHING about it.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

And the problem with that would be, you (not you personally) could conceivably go to one of your KJ friends and ask to borrow those specific discs for a few hours. Then you would be presenting someone else's discs as proof that you owned the disc.

Well, if that KJ happens to be using pirated song tracks (regardless of whether he uses SC or not), and the Venue decided to act upon it (by firing or not hiring that KJ), that would be one less Pirate KJ operating, and the "Playing Field is now level" (as SC once worded it) for a legit KJ to come in and sell his services to the Venue.

"We recognize that there are shows where newer material will be required. That's why we've committed to buying and placing that material when it's needed, regardless of who the producer is, and to giving our operators the ability to obtain it on-demand at the facility. If all goes according to plan, we expect to be the single biggest commercial customer for Digitrax, KSF, and KV. We are not limited to using SC at all."

How funny is it that Sound Choice/PEP will be buying karaoke tracks from other karaoke producers rather than create the songs themselves? I don't recall General Motors buying parts from Fiat, EVER!