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JimHarrington
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 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:17 am |
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c. staley wrote: Every "technical infringer" that you currently sue ALSO "owns their system and discs" and while I realize that you're playing stupid (hopefully), your dodge is obvious. Let me dumb this waaaay down for you: Are your systems going to be disc-based or computer based? Our systems will be computer-based, and in every instance they will include the permissions necessary to do that. You forget that the "technical infringers" may own their systems and discs, but they also failed to get permission to copy. We will have permission to copy. c. staley wrote: (1) Other than your gem oldies,
You can keep calling them "oldies," but the fact remains that they contain 90% of the songs that are sung with frequency at most shows. Still. c. staley wrote: you don't have any inventory left... (or were you lying?)
We don't have any inventory of new CD+G discs. But we do have used discs that we've received in trade or as parts of settlements. We also have the ability to go into the secondary market and buy what we need, just like any other KJ. Why is that difficult to understand? c. staley wrote: Because you've always reminded us that simply using a computer as a copy machine is illegal - It's "stealing" and that is from the "rights holders of the underlying work(s)."
Incorrect. Since 2007, we've had a policy that 1:1 correspondence, with our permission, is fine by us. The problem is that comparatively few people bother to ask for permission. c. staley wrote: (2) If you give them a "help license" it's nothing more than licensing pirates that would be stealing from publishers and writers again.... and screwing every single KJ that has ever purchased discs. How ethical of you once again!
Sound Choice Entertainment will not be using HELP licenses on our owned systems. (By the way, the HELP license includes pass-through licensing from participating publishers, and every publisher whose work is represented on the material licensed through HELP has a standing invitation to join our royalty pool or to remove its tracks from licensing—so "stealing from publishers and writers"? No.) c. staley wrote: JimHarrington wrote: What some of you don't seem to be getting is that if Sound Choice Entertainment is able to build an operation with hundreds of installed systems, we (meaning Phoenix) will know that we can sell hundreds of copies of any song we put out, thereby removing the loss risk from the new production equation. That means new Sound Choice music for everybody, and we do it by displacing pirates. Well there's that sticky little 2-letter word again: "IF" And we all know how "words mean things." So your new "enterprise" will provide enough money to provide "new sound choice music for everyone?".... Well, not exactly "everyone" is it because you only want to lease it: No one knows the future. You, even less so than most. (Remember that "GEM SERIES IS GOING TO BE RECALLED OMG" prediction?) If, as we expect, we can grow our base of owned systems into the hundreds--and we think that's reasonably possible within a relatively short period of time--then we will have hundreds of "customers" (actually our own systems) that will want that music. Because we control that operation, we can determine what music will "sell" much better than with regard to customers whom we don't control. As I have previously indicated, the major obstacle to making new music is the inability to predict a sufficient return on the investment needed to do so. c. staley wrote: JimHarrington wrote: But we're not going to be "selling" tracks to anyone. They will be licensed, in the same manner as the GEM series. Each track will be overtly and covertly marked. We'll know with specificity every person who is supposed to have any given track. If it shows up somewhere it's not supposed to be, that's a slam-dunk case, and we'll be able to trace it to the source pirate and sue them as well. So why speak out of one side of your face that you "know we can sell hundreds of copies of any song we put out, thereby removing the loss risk from the new production equation." and then immediately state that you're "not going to be "selling" tracks to anyone." And you wonder why your very own market is no longer trusting anything you say? You're a marketing genius alright.... I should've put "sell" in quotation marks the first time. You don't miss a beat, Cheddar. But we've made no secret of the fact that we will not be using an outright sale model for new production. c. staley wrote: JimHarrington wrote: c. staley wrote: Even the gem series is on the torrent sites. Ask any KJ if they had the "only disc in town" with the newest songs on it if they'd be happy to share that (even sell that) to their competitors. When they realize that doing so not only voids their license in that song but also voids all licenses they hold in any SC product, and that we have the ability to trace it back to them, and that they will be subject to suit (and possibly to criminal copyright infringement charges) for doing so, I'm going to call that a sufficient deterrent. It is certainly a deterrent to any kind of commerce as well. Think of it as a lock. A lock won't keep a determined criminal out, but it will keep an honest person honest, and that's good enough. c. staley wrote: It amazes me that when others press you to produce a single "happy prospect" you want to "protect them" from this obviously abusive and horrid forum..... which means there really aren't any and you're fibbing to try to look credible. Nothing unusual here.... I'm not protecting anybody. They are welcome to come here if they want. But it's utterly unnecessary.
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doowhatchulike
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:24 am |
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MrBoo wrote: jclaydon wrote: Well to be fair, i think what Jim was referring to is that they had to pay for all the music upfront, before a single dime was earned on sales. When you consider a lot of the later music didn't make a profit due to lack of sales and piracy/file sharing, that means they actually took a subtantial loss. James, Making product that doesn't produce is a part of business. As KJs, we deal with this every time we decide to make a purchase or not. Will this get sung? Will it be desirable and improve my business? The production of their later stuff that didn't sell was fueled by profits from previous sales. Just like KJs make purchases based on revenue generated from shows. It's business. And another bend Jim has brainwashed people here on is that piracy affected their sales. Think really hard about it for a moment. Did the number of people buying music drop? No. I would argue that the number of people buying music was on the rise at the time of SC's drop in sales. Sure piracy was there. Always has been, but I'll get to that in a moment. The reason SC's sales dropped had nothing to do with piracy as you and I and Lonnie and everyone else that bought music still bought music. That was enough to fly SC high prior, why was it not enough now? It had everything to do with an antiquated business model. People like you and I and Lonnie and almost everyone else here still buys music. But we are not going to spend $23 US on a disc that only has one song we need on it. We don't have to any longer. SC didn't lose sales to piracy. People that download for free would never buy to begin with so you can't lose something you never had to begin with. SC\Pep and Jim has blamed their woes on pirates, and sadly I truly think they believe it, but we need to know better. Piracy is a huge problem for music and movie IP. But, as I said, you can't lose something you never had to begin with. Chasing the eternal piracy tail has proven to be a fruitless endeavor. SC\PEP is living proof of that. The models that work go after those that will buy and they make a purchase the path of least resistance. Itunes. Streaming subscriptions. Indirect profits (advertising) like spotify. PEP has again missed the mark by attempting to compete with those who have been loyal customers and KJs need to understand what's going on and hold them accountable. jclaydon wrote: There current plan would be more like trying to recoup their losses by using inventory they never got to sell.
As for competition. It will either be PEP or some other KJ you're competing against. I don't see the difference. Competition is competion. If your a competent KJ i don't think it will make one lick of difference to someone like you.
And if it is the fact that they MIGHT be competing against someone who they sold music to previously well that's just the way business works sometimes.
How many people who are KJs who used to work for a different host, or happens to be a singer who decides that they can do better and try to make a of it. I know of at least twenty. Happens a lot more than you think
Do i agree with everything they've done? Absolutely not but let's keep things in perspective.
-James If I paid $23 for each disc I own (the number is high, I know, but hang in there for the point) then turned around and made 100 copies of each disc and sold them for $1, everyone here including (and especially) Jim would say I was using free music at best. It would be worse than a Pirate and it certainly would be. I've actually made money off that purchase then I created an unfair advantage by competing against other KJs for gigs. Of course I can't do that. PEP can and did and is. Couple that with the fact that they can sue people, force bars to use their service, then compete with KJs who have to factor in the cost of purchasing music and you have a classic unfair advantage. This is as black and white of an unfair competitive advantage as you will find. Couple this with this seemingly questionable program involving licensing illegally made copies. I just cannot imagine a precedent where an entity has legally (and I am using the term "legally" in the literal sense, not in the policy sense that has been abused ad nauseum) been allowed to license a product they did not create, in general, and an audiovisual product, specifically, and, ironically, sue folks for using, some having actually paid for the product in question. (I totally get that this is a consumer-based position, but there can be no company without consumers...)
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c. staley
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:51 am |
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attorney Jim Harrington wrote: No one knows the future. You, even less so than most. (Remember that "GEM SERIES IS GOING TO BE RECALLED OMG" prediction?) Remember that hefty settlement check that avoided the gem series being recalled?
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Alan B
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:27 am |
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I think that Phoenix Prime is an interesting concept. While it may not be for everyone, it could be beneficial for many KJ's. So, before being so quick to put it down, give it a chance. I seriously doubt that SC wants to take away business from any certified KJ who is operating legally as some have stated. All in all, it's nice to see SC branching out into other avenues and offering us an opportunity to get on board with them.
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mrscott
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:02 am |
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Alan B wrote: I think that Phoenix Prime is an interesting concept. While it may not be for everyone, it could be beneficial for many KJ's. So, before being so quick to put it down, give it a chance. I seriously doubt that SC wants to take away business from any certified KJ who is operating legally as some have stated. All in all, it's nice to see SC branching out into other avenues and offering us an opportunity to get on board with them. I agree to a point. Give them a chance at least to see how the hosting world works. They are actually in for a surprise tho. If they think that they are going to "hire" hosts that are willing to go long term hosting, all the while they are trying to build a clientele/following with those "hired" hosts, they have a wake up call. It takes someone who has a vested interest in building a show/business to make it work,,, and you just don't get that same attitude with "hired" hosts. And let's not forget the lack of new songs for the shows to use. Maybe it will come over time, that is the big question isn't it. "IF" they create "hundreds" of sets of gear into service, then they will need "hundreds" of copies of EACH of the non-SC/Chartbusters discs they have acquired thru whatever means they have gotten them. If they use a 1:1 ratio as Jim has so adamantly said is required to be computer based (his words again). I think there are some pretty questionable practices that are going to be implemented by PEP. They will bend their own rules to fit their needs,,, just as they have done over and over again since this debate began years ago. I do not begrudge anyone for wanting to make money, even the lawyers or the manu's. But, if they are making money by stepping on others to do it (that is how I see it going) then they are running unethically, maybe not "illegally" but most definitely very questionable. I truly hope for the best for them (PEP), honestly, but as it looks now with the business model's they have created and/or tried to implement, they are hurting the karaoke industry as a whole. To compete against the very customers you are trying to service is not only stupid, it's immoral. The entire industry needs a make-over and update how everything is done. Bring it into the 21st century, making new and old tracks available to everyone at whatever a competitive price is necessary,,, using modern technology and not an antiquated concept that is long past it's usefulness. Karaoke used to be fun, it's not anymore, it's stressing to say the least for hosts. To sit at a floundering show, not knowing if it's your last, or worrying about if you are going to be sued because you are using a computer based operation, whether 1:1 or not. SC has created the fuel for the ugliness that is burning the industry to the ground. I don't blame them one little bit for wanting to protect their interests,, I know I would. But how they have done it is truly appalling. I quit hosting because it was no longer fun to me. And I am really a VERY upbeat person. Time for the karaoke world to wake up from this bad dream.
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c. staley
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:52 pm |
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Very well stated: mrscott wrote: I think there are some pretty questionable practices that are going to be implemented by PEP. They will bend their own rules to fit their needs,,, just as they have done over and over again since this debate began years ago. I do not begrudge anyone for wanting to make money, even the lawyers or the manu's. But, if they are making money by stepping on others to do it (that is how I see it going) then they are running unethically, maybe not "illegally" but most definitely very questionable. It's all they know.
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Toastedmuffin
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:37 pm |
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Alan B wrote: I think that Phoenix Prime is an interesting concept. While it may not be for everyone, it could be beneficial for many KJ's. So, before being so quick to put it down, give it a chance. I seriously doubt that SC wants to take away business from any certified KJ who is operating legally as some have stated. All in all, it's nice to see SC branching out into other avenues and offering us an opportunity to get on board with them. I really don't worry about what other KJs are doing... For me it's simple, keep up with my singers needs. Happy singers are a KJs most valuable asset, as they keep us employed. So while PEPs Prime is annoying, I doubt it will be an issue for me. My biggest problem about this program are those credits... They are simply selling a product that doesn't exist currently. They have been promising songs for years... Harrington says they don't want to put their own money into making music. but PEP haS no problem taking a customers cash and holding it indefinitely. Considering they have some Advanced money for how many months now (with an option to refund, yes we know), how long will it before they put out karaoke music for Prime members who pay up? I figure the credit value in the Prime Platinum membership is between $150-$250, so until they make some karaoke music Staley is right, it's a no interest loan. Maybe I will reconsider the program when I see what you are actually getting for the money. Some preview clips of training videos, where the discounts on gear are, what you get for promotional material, what the national bookings are, etc.. Until then it's all just empty promises. I'm still waiting on the CB stuff, and that's been out a few weeks now.
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:20 pm |
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Alan B wrote: I think that Phoenix Prime is an interesting concept. While it may not be for everyone, it could be beneficial for many KJ's. So, before being so quick to put it down, give it a chance. I seriously doubt that SC wants to take away business from any certified KJ who is operating legally as some have stated. All in all, it's nice to see SC branching out into other avenues and offering us an opportunity to get on board with them. Could your nose get any more brown?? They won't compete against CERTIFIED KJs, but screw everyone else?? So it is just another ploy to force SC down our throats. That IS racketeering!! "Use our product, get certified, or get out!! And if you don't get out, we will force you out by taking over your venue, or we will sue you because we can!!" "
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doowhatchulike
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:05 pm |
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There are some logics to this that don't add up: Site A offers songs/subscriptions for X dollars, but says they are only for private use; Site B offers songs/subscriptions for X times 3 dollars or more and is specifically for commercial use; Site C has songs/subscriptions for X times 3 dollars or more, but does not offer a lower price for non-commercial use. Site D offers to "license" material that they claim is "illegal", allegedly with the publishers' blessing, that was not created by either entity, a case in point that is the basis for litigation against end-users. All of this in a world where most businesses get product for commercial use at an overall LOWER price than the average consumer, in order to be profitable. It is not difficult to see how those of us looking from the outside-in cannot help but view this as one of the most convoluted industries around...
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Alan B
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:21 pm |
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Smoothedge69 wrote: Alan B wrote: I think that Phoenix Prime is an interesting concept. While it may not be for everyone, it could be beneficial for many KJ's. So, before being so quick to put it down, give it a chance. I seriously doubt that SC wants to take away business from any certified KJ who is operating legally as some have stated. All in all, it's nice to see SC branching out into other avenues and offering us an opportunity to get on board with them. Could your nose get any more brown?? They won't compete against CERTIFIED KJs, but screw everyone else?? So it is just another ploy to force SC down our throats. That IS racketeering!! "Use our product, get certified, or get out!! And if you don't get out, we will force you out by taking over your venue, or we will sue you because we can!!" " Smooth... why don't you take advantage of the *FREE* audit that's been offered to you? It seems that they are trying to work with you. Get certified and be done with it. Personally, I don't want or need to participate in any unnecessary drama. I just want to do my job and be the best that I can be. You're creating your own drama. And acting very hostile towards SC. While you may not agree with their methods, it is what it is. Like you, they are trying to run a business. But because everybody has "stolen" from them, it changed the course of their business model. I'm sure SC would love it if things were like they were like they were 10 years ago when they were successfully producing music. But your fellow pirate KJ's killed it. They've hurt you as well as them. These are your peers. You should be upset with them, not SC. The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can.
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:34 pm |
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Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true.
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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens
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jdmeister
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:06 pm |
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. Well, there you have it..
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mrmarog
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:26 pm |
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jdmeister wrote: Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. Well, there you have it.. Some people will believe almost anything....... if you like you doctor....... what difference does it make...... it was a video that caused it...... free, free free..... they are a JV team ...... and under control........ we are dead broke    PS I never said any of this, some body stole my identity and posted this. I swear it wasn't me
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:35 pm |
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mrmarog wrote: jdmeister wrote: Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. Well, there you have it.. Some people will believe almost anything....... if you like you doctor....... what difference does it make...... it was a video that caused it...... free, free free..... they are a JV team ...... and under control........ we are dead broke PS I never said any of this, some body stole my identity and posted this. I swear it wasn't me hey, you guys know how i feel, i just told what he said, not that i believed it. time and time again it has been shown to be true regardless of what the official reply is.
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JimHarrington
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:31 am |
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. That's not what I said. You said that we had not ever acted on anyone's leads, which is false. Are there areas where we haven't acted on leads? Yes, of course. Have we acted on every lead? Of course not. But it's simply wrong to say we never act on leads.
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:47 am |
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JimHarrington wrote: Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. That's not what I said. You said that we had not ever acted on anyone's leads, which is false. Are there areas where we haven't acted on leads? Yes, of course. Have we acted on every lead? Of course not. But it's simply wrong to say we never act on leads. Are you THAT daft?? Do you NOT see what you have done?? You have come up with one scheme after another, that has failed. The KJs want two things from you. Either put out music or sue the pirates, or do both, but stop coming up with one scheme after another while not doing a damn thing for the industry. Everyone who comes on here, who has been in your corner, has now complained that you have done NOTHING to fix the pirate problem in their area, even after they sent in reports. What you are doing now is just a joke. THIS is why people are so angry at you, and Kurt and The Sleppy/Peppy Company!! You are now a JOKE in this industry. Meanwhile, Party Tyme, of all brands, is DESTROYING YOU, both in quality AND quantity. (Excellent job Michael and company!!). WHY? They are making music, a lot of it, and you are sitting on your hands. They are putting out stuff that YOU used to corner the market on. They are EVEN getting some of the No Flies on board!! Meanwhile, YOU are talking about releasing Irish Pub Hits on the CB label. Oh YAY!!!! Laughable!!
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Toastedmuffin
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm |
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I've had my weekend to reflect on this. A few days at our vacation house with our hot tub does wonders  You know, all us here are complaining about SC/PEP but here's the truth: They haven't been 'around' as a vendor for 6 years. PEP/SC is just feeding off the scraps of their former empire. We have all used alternate vendors to get what we need all this time. Legal KJs have 'survived' long enough without them, and will continue to do so. These plans and schemes only hold weight if we let them. There are other companies better equipped to handle our needs now. If and when the UK market returns it is more product for us. SC needs our money, but we don't need them, and pirates aren't paying anyway. Like Harrington says, we don't have to buy whatever they are peddling, so let's not. Also, make sure we tell the new or friendly KJs we know about the other options out there and let PEP deal on it's own. It is up to PEP/SC to sell whatever they come up with not us. Let the market give them the answer. We might be a vocal bunch, but I have a feeling that other non vocal KJs will vote with their wallets too. And that's all that needs to be said in the end. Money talks BS walks.
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c. staley
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:21 pm |
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JimHarrington wrote: That's not what I said.
You said that we had not ever acted on anyone's leads, which is false.
Are there areas where we haven't acted on leads? Yes, of course. Have we acted on every lead? Of course not. But it's simply wrong to say we never act on leads. Name one.
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c. staley
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:33 pm |
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Smoothedge69 wrote: Meanwhile, YOU are talking about releasing Irish Pub Hits on the CB label. Oh YAY!!!! Laughable!! "Releasing Irish Pub Hits" is a pretty loose term here Smoothedge69 and you are being waaay to kind... "Dumpster Diving" might be more accurate since the disc was manufacturerd by Tennessee Production Center in 2006. But they submitted a picture of that disc to the Trademark Office as proof of use in commerce..... and signed a declaration that it was their product and Harrington comes here claiming it was "new material made from old masters." That one wasn't, and unfortunately, it appears as though one of the songs on that disc is NOT "public domain." So, wouldn't that make it.... ???? Has a single person here ordered their "Chartbuster Gospel disc" with the "Sound Choice warning" printed on it or the SD card? Didn't think so...
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:29 am |
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:24 pm
Posts: 5107
Location: Phoenix Az
Been Liked: 1279 times
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JimHarrington wrote: Paradigm Karaoke wrote: Alan B wrote: The only problem that I DO have with SC is that leads that we've all submitted to them about pirate KJ's in our areas have not been acted upon, and all these years went by and they are still playing at the same venues and nothing was ever done to stop it. That is something that I would love SC to address and something that would certainly help us more than any other program can. i addressed that with Jim a few pages back and he replied that it is simply not true. That's not what I said. You said that we had not ever acted on anyone's leads, which is false. Are there areas where we haven't acted on leads? Yes, of course. Have we acted on every lead? Of course not. But it's simply wrong to say we never act on leads. ok....fair enough... question to all here, has anyone who specifically reported a pirate to SC/PEP seen that pirate sued?i will leave it to them to show the results of reporting. make no mistake Jim, i want those bastards gone! but not one person has argued back saying that this accusation that many of us have made here was incorrect, in fact, it is only the supporters that say nothing was done because only the supporters made the effort to try and help. i gave you another solid bit of information and i will gladly eat crow if you actually do follow through, and tell everyone that SC/PEP did what they said and nailed this pirate to the wall, no settlement, no GEM, balls to the wall and made other pirates in the area duck and cover. we have asked for years to just do what you said you would, and not one person here has had that happen yet.
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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens
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