Karaoke Forums

Stingray has been fully compensated for everything we've sold or licensed after the sale. It has no say over the products for which it has already been compensated.



There is a difference between "sunk cost" and "free." The music has been fully paid for.

There is plenty of business for every legitimate KJ out there, no matter how many rigs we run.

Thanks for your patronage. If you're a licensed operator, we look forward to doing business with you in the future, both as a Phoenix customer and as a potential vendor for Sound Choice Entertainment.



The only situation in which that has occurred is when we've sued someone who had some discs but who had gone pirate (either by exceeding the scope of what they had on disc, or by multi-rigging), and they elected to get out of the business and turn over their discs and equipment in lieu of cash.

That is a relatively unusual situation. Most of the time, the operators we sue don't have ANY discs, and if they're 1:1 or reasonably close to it, they get out of the suit easily without having to turn over their discs.



It's not "free" product. In fact, it was very costly because we had to pay for all of it upfront.



I think that some people are going to be "pissed beyond belief" no matter what we do. Others are going to be goaded into misunderstanding people certain people with an agenda. Others are afraid of change, and still others are jealous of the opportunities we've created. But the response we've had to these developments has been much more positive than negative.

If that is a reference to me, I take great exception. I form my own opinions and I feel I have been more than fair to you and SC\PEP. I am not some sheep that follows any certain opinion or agenda. You are going to try to take this and bend it how you see fit. It's what you are paid to do. People need to understand that every court case has two sides, two opinions, and two versions of the truth. Rarely is either version the real truth and that applies to just about every post you make here.

This is no different and I stand by my opinions.

And, BTW, I am a past customer. I don't see "current customer" happening.

Since the only positive views reflected here (so far) are yours (James Harrington), how about inviting some of those people to this Forum to tell their side of things. I'm sure there are some here that will also be willing to listen to these positive views. Of course, you can also forewarn them to be prepared to debate.

I don't know if it applies to you or not. Already part of your approach to these developments is based on misinformation—the idea that we're doing this with "free" product—so I'd say there is a good chance it does apply to you, but I'm open to correction.



It's easy to say that. It's much harder to point out something I've said that isn't true.

I'm not attempting to bend anything. I'm correcting misinformation. I think I've been very straightforward about what our plans are, not because I'm necessarily trying to sell a product or a story, but because I think it's of interest to people on this board. I really do think that within a couple of years the people who have been quick to criticize us will see that they were wrong.



That's entirely up to you. We encounter lots of people who stand on what they think is principle. It really doesn't change our opinion.

The general tone and tenor of this board has largely run off people who want to discuss things, and no, I don't agree that there are very many people here who are willing to listen to these views. Not everybody wants to debate, particularly in view of the many personal attacks to which they've been subjected. For some people, it's not enough to discuss things; they're interested in destroying people who have different opinions. It's tiresome.

And that's quite the bend right there. I already laid out how calling this "free" product is actually being nice. Sure, SC made an initial investment, but that investment was funded by profits from us. Then you made more money on it. Then you made more money on it. And that's fine and well. But when you take product that we helped finance; product that you've profited on over and over, then turn and use that product to compete against the very customers who helped fund all this, calling it "free" is a bend. Just not in the direction you wish to bend it. The misinformation, Jim, is coming from you not me.

I don't believe that people here would "run off" people who are in your program. They have opinions, and some of them run strong (Specially where money is concerned). I'd love to hear who is using your program successfully and see what they are getting out of it, feeling like the $350 PRIME membership is a terrific value and has made it back plus. so long as they are not directly connected to PEP.

So I'll flip this around... show us where the POSITIVE responses are, give us a link where PEP is getting the praise! I would think that is fair, no?

If I had the only disc in town I know damn well I wouldn't be sharing it or selling it to anyone. Why would I. This is the same arguement I used when kj's wanted to swap libraries with me in the 90's - WHY would I want my competition to have the same material I have spent my time and money building up. There would be no uniqueness to my selection anymore.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I think this was asked before but what happens when a GEM set is stolen from a kj - I believe it has already happened (seem to remember someone here say it happened to them) or at least the computer that the set was moved to. These would be very easy for someone to torrent I would think. Does that still fall back on the original purchaser? Discs and systems get stolen all the time. I've had it happen to me a couple time out of my van.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I wouldn't either, I take great pride in that I have never shared my purchases. And having something no one else does it a great way to keep my singers around. However the proof is in the pudding, even the GEM series is out there in torrent land, so people will share this even if they shouldn't.

Which is why I asked because I believe someone here had said they had a theft of their GEM discs or the computer with the music on it stolen from them while they were breaking down from a show - in which that could be the source of any GEM tracks on a torrent site if they are there.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Did I say MANY PEOPLE?????????????????????? As for your comment about being subjected to personal attacks, why don't you let those people decide for themselves instead of choosing to be their protector. We're all Adults here (regardless of how some may behave). Let us hear from some of these Customers who have all these positives raves about the new Service (?) PEP is now offering. If these people don't like something that's posted here, then they can just close the door behind them and never return. It's that simple.

Well to be fair, i think what Jim was referring to is that they had to pay for all the music upfront, before a single dime was earned on sales. When you consider a lot of the later music didn't make a profit due to lack of sales and piracy/file sharing, that means they actually took a subtantial loss.

There current plan would be more like trying to recoup their losses by using inventory they never got to sell.

As for competition. It will either be PEP or some other KJ you're competing against. I don't see the difference. Competition is competion. If your a competent KJ i don't think it will make one lick of difference to someone like you.

And if it is the fact that they MIGHT be competing against someone who they sold music to previously well that's just the way business works sometimes.

How many people who are KJs who used to work for a different host, or happens to be a singer who decides that they can do better and try to make a of it. I know of at least twenty. Happens a lot more than you think

Do i agree with everything they've done? Absolutely not but let's keep things in perspective.

-James

I think in the back of people minds are the fact that this competition can sue other kj's or bars and maybe gain the club in return.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Yup, your average KJ competitor certainly can't do that!!

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

James,
Making product that doesn't produce is a part of business. As KJs, we deal with this every time we decide to make a purchase or not. Will this get sung? Will it be desirable and improve my business? The production of their later stuff that didn't sell was fueled by profits from previous sales. Just like KJs make purchases based on revenue generated from shows. It's business. And another bend Jim has brainwashed people here on is that piracy affected their sales. Think really hard about it for a moment. Did the number of people buying music drop? No. I would argue that the number of people buying music was on the rise at the time of SC's drop in sales. Sure piracy was there. Always has been, but I'll get to that in a moment. The reason SC's sales dropped had nothing to do with piracy as you and I and Lonnie and everyone else that bought music still bought music. That was enough to fly SC high prior, why was it not enough now? It had everything to do with an antiquated business model. People like you and I and Lonnie and almost everyone else here still buys music. But we are not going to spend $23 US on a disc that only has one song we need on it. We don't have to any longer. SC didn't lose sales to piracy. People that download for free would never buy to begin with so you can't lose something you never had to begin with. SC\Pep and Jim has blamed their woes on pirates, and sadly I truly think they believe it, but we need to know better.

Piracy is a huge problem for music and movie IP. But, as I said, you can't lose something you never had to begin with. Chasing the eternal piracy tail has proven to be a fruitless endeavor. SC\PEP is living proof of that. The models that work go after those that will buy and they make a purchase the path of least resistance. Itunes. Streaming subscriptions. Indirect profits (advertising) like spotify. PEP has again missed the mark by attempting to compete with those who have been loyal customers and KJs need to understand what's going on and hold them accountable.


If I paid $23 for each disc I own (the number is high, I know, but hang in there for the point) then turned around and made 100 copies of each disc and sold them for $1, everyone here including (and especially) Jim would say I was using free music at best. It would be worse than a Pirate and it certainly would be. I've actually made money off that purchase then I created an unfair advantage by competing against other KJs for gigs. Of course I can't do that. PEP can and did and is. Couple that with the fact that they can sue people, force bars to use their service, then compete with KJs who have to factor in the cost of purchasing music and you have a classic unfair advantage. This is as black and white of an unfair competitive advantage as you will find.

This almost sounds like the beginnings of a R.I.C.O. case. It's got all the angles. Protection money, in the form of H.E.L.P., and now extortion and racketeering with this PEP PRIME crap.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I think this is the general concern most of us have. Mr. Harrington has already stated that they are putting more resources into lawsuits. Is it a stretch for us to think spotters won't land in the same areas as where they set KJs down?

Every "technical infringer" that you currently sue ALSO "owns their system and discs" and while I realize that you're playing stupid (hopefully), your dodge is obvious. Let me dumb this waaaay down for you: Are your systems going to be disc-based or computer based?
(1) Other than your gem oldies, you don't have any inventory left... (or were you lying?) Because you've always reminded us that simply using a computer as a copy machine is illegal - It's "stealing" and that is from the "rights holders of the underlying work(s)."
(2) If you give them a "help license" it's nothing more than licensing pirates that would be stealing from publishers and writers again.... and screwing every single KJ that has ever purchased discs. How ethical of you once again!
Well there's that sticky little 2-letter word again: "IF" And we all know how "words mean things." So your new "enterprise" will provide enough money to provide "new sound choice music for everyone?".... Well, not exactly "everyone" is it because you only want to lease it:
So why speak out of one side of your face that you "know we can sell hundreds of copies of any song we put out, thereby removing the loss risk from the new production equation." and then immediately state that you're "not going to be "selling" tracks to anyone."
And you wonder why your very own market is no longer trusting anything you say? You're a marketing genius alright....
It is certainly a deterrent to any kind of commerce as well.

You're doing a terrific job... of continuing to poison the well and marketing yourself out of a job....

"Keep Calm... and Carry On!"

It amazes me that when others press you to produce a single "happy prospect" you want to "protect them" from this obviously abusive and horrid forum..... which means there really aren't any and you're fibbing to try to look credible. Nothing unusual here....

While you'd like to convince others that I'm somehow misleading them about your intentions (which I'm not in any way, shape or form) I'm enjoying this immensely because you're blatantly and defiantly poisoning the very well you want to market to... and they're letting you know that.... and you don't care. It's more than laughable.