Karaoke Forums

For those of you who are interested, Chartbuster registration is now open.

Full program details and the registration function are available on the main Phoenix website (pep.rocks).

Question:

On the compilation box sets such as the Essential 450 series (1 to 10) that contains 30 discs each, do you have to list each individual CD or can you just list for example: Chartbuster Essential 450 CBE1

Also, what about individual tracks that were unlocked using the KJ Media Pro system.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Sets can be listed together by the set name as one unit. If you have individual tracks unlocked from the KJ media pro drive, you can just note it as "KJMP drive, 315 tracks unlocked" (or whatever number of tracks).

I will make sure the website gets updated with this information today.

How about a scenario with an original CB drive with NO certificate?

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DJ Don

Exactly...

And there were plenty that went out the door in the last month or so with no sales receipt either. Requests for receipts were either ignored completely or delayed, delayed, delayed and then they vanished.

If you are using the original drive directly, without any copied media, that's an "original media only" situation, and registration is free whether you have a certificate or not.

Receipts are irrelevant to this process. What matters is, are you using the original media (HD, CD+G, Super CDG, SD card, etc.) or 1:1 copies?

If you're using the original media only (even if the original medium is a hard drive), registration is free.

If you have an unexpired certificate, registration is free.

If you're using 1:1 copies of fewer than 10 CD+G discs and no other media, registration is free.

If you have an expired certificate, registration is $25.

Otherwise, it's $50.

If you're out of 1:1 correspondence, get your system into 1:1 correspondence.

Your tracks need to be ripped at 128 kbps or better, and if you encounter any video glitches or audio dropouts, you need to fix them. These are minimal standards that any professional is likely to adhere to anyway.

Most importantly, we're going to take your word for it, as long as what you claim is reasonable in view of the photos you supply us with. We think that fairly strikes a balance between our need for information and policing of the marks and your ability to operate as you think appropriate.

And you forgot one teeny element you might want to add just to be more transparent of the actual terms and conditions because not informing these KJ's that what they are about to do is sign a legally binding and on-going contract with your firm really wouldn't be very nice.

Along with payment, acceptance of the terms and conditions of a legally-binding and on-going contract is mandatory. We suggest you consult with your own attorney.

Just tryin' to help.

And one other thing:

What if a KJ wants to register their library, but isn't interested in creating a "free account" with your company? Perhaps they don't want sales spam or other notices... How would they accomplish that?

Unlike you, I don't think most people are stupid. I think most people are capable of reading the program description, which is written in plain English, and seeing that this "contract" you are referring to isn't anything more significant than any other interaction they have with companies.

When you visit a retail store and buy a product, you're entering into a contract. You don't even read most of the terms--maybe they're posted on a wall near the cash register or at the customer service desk. The terms of that contract determine whether a sale is final or not, whether the store will accept returns within a certain number of days, whether they'll give you cash back or store credit, and so forth.

There is nothing hidden about this program. The terms are plainly visible for anyone to read. They're not written in confusing language. And they don't require anything onerous of the people who sign up.

Of course, if anyone wants to have an attorney review it before they sign up, be my guest. I certainly don't begrudge my fellow attorneys the fees they'll earn on it, which will almost certainly be a lot more than it costs to sign up.



No, you're not. You're trying to cause whatever damage you can by ginning up FUD and false complaints about this program, or anything else we do, even if your acts harm innocent bystanders.



Registering for an account on our site is a required step in the process.

We do business via our website and email, so if you register for a product, you're going to get emails related to that product from time to time--not sales emails, but "maintenance" emails like notifications of upcoming deadlines, pending charges, etc.

Aside from that, every sales or informational email we send includes an "unsubscribe" link, which if clicked automatically removes the email address from our sales list. We send those sorts of emails about once a month, sometimes more frequently.

This is the way that hundreds of thousands of businesses interact with their customers. I'd be shocked if you didn't interact with the businesses you patronize in the same way, which means that this isn't so much a complaint as more FUD.

Does the 'otherwise, it's $50' cover the original media hard drive that's transferred (copied to another drive) 1:1?

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DJ Don

Yes, unless there is a certificate.

Then why don't you simply call it a contract instead of the misnomer "program?" You seem to be avoiding the word "contract" like it's the plague and if it is as innocuous as you claim it to be, this shouldn't be a problem.
The difference is, of course – you are not a store.
That is your opinion, because remember, you are the attorney for the company which is presenting a "contract" labeled as a "program."Of course it is not going to be onerous for you.
which is simply another way for you to say; "Please don't read this and just trust me that it's good for you." Your flippant tone Is not disguising your fear that they might actually read and understand what they're reading.
Please explain to me how anyone consulting with their own attorney can possibly be an act that would "harm an innocent bystander?"

I would expect by consulting with their own attorney it would actually avoid harming anyone – especially the KJ and perhaps their venues in the future.

Because we, not you, get to choose the words we use. Query: Why do you insist on referring to this as a contract? Because you're hoping that people see "contract" and say, "I don't want to be locked up in some long-term deal where I'm obligated to do a bunch of stuff or pay a lot of money over time." You're not using the term "contract" in the legal sense of "an agreement with mutual promises and covenants." You're using it in the sense of a wireless phone contract, which it doesn't resemble in the slightest.



Sorry for not dumbing it down to your level.

The point, of course, is that ANY transaction between two parties is a "contract." You go into a store and buy something, there's a contract. It is impossible to conduct any transaction without there being a contract in some sense.



It's not onerous for anybody. Have you actually read the program description? What parts do you think a KJ ought to consider onerous?



We wrote the program description in plain English precisely so that ordinary people could read it and feel like they understand what's they're reading. Everything is clearly labeled. We tried very hard to avoid jargon and legal terms of art. If we didn't want people to read it, or understand it, we could have easily written a very confusing fine-print document. We didn't do that--and that's still not good enough for you.

If anyone thinks they need independent counsel before registering, go ahead. Ask your attorney. Ask your spouse. Ask your best friend. I literally could not care less whom you might speak to about it. I just want you to be comfortable with it.



Your stated goal is to discourage KJs by whatever means necessary from registering for this program, even though not registering is very likely to cause some of them unnecessary problems. You'll lie, you'll obfuscate; you'll use scare tactics; you'll put words in my mouth; you'll use faulty quasi-legal reasoning--anything in service of your goal, which is NOT to help anyone, but to hurt us.

It's not that you encouraged anyone to have a lawyer read it. That's fine, and anybody who wants to should do that. It's all the other stuff--in particular, the lies you posted yesterday about quality control and having to re-rip all your discs, which got deleted, and your insinuations that we're trying to put something over on somebody that continue even to today. That's what I have a problem with, but ultimately, it's not my problem--it's the problem of anybody who's foolish enough to believe anything you say, much less follow your ill-considered advice.

Really?
(1) Does it require a KJ to be "locked up?" Absolutely. If they sign-on-the-line it is a legally-binding contract right? (Note the industry term-of-art; "binding.")

(2) Is it some long-term deal? Well let's see: is there a published duration? Nope. So long-term it is.

You can use whatever word you want to describe it, including a "duck," but it's still a contract. A "program" can include a contract, but it doesn't have to. The exercise program a your local church can include a contract, but not the one at the ballpark or the theatre or even concert.

You don't have to "dumb anything down" for me. And my point is: I don't have to sign any long-term, legally-binding contract with every store to shop there, the contract ends when I walk out and I certainly don't have to do anything they demand for their benefit or "control" -- like walk down ALL the aisles every time I visit -- just because I've walked in the store. And they are subject to truth-in-advertising laws as well.

Post the contract, the "program details" are not the part "that binds." The "program" can promise fluffy bunnies every Tuesday but that doesn't matter if the "contract" says; the "purchaser indemnifies "the company" against any sick bunnies or in the event no bunnies are delivered." .

The "program" isn't binding, the contract is. Even your own advertising "program description" for the gem series seems to ignore the indemnifications, the KJ must promise not to sue you in return (even for infringement), and ignores the requirement for KJ's to get their own licenses, yadda, yadda, yadda...

So don't make it look like your "program description" are the terms in their entirety. I'm not that dumb.

Right. Because that's not the "binding elements" of your contract. Post the contract out in the light of day and let KJ's take a look at it before they are forced to "create a free account." If the program is as good and beneficial as you'd like to make it out to be, they'll be flocking to you saying; "Shut up and take my money!" Last time I checked, the store down the street doesn't ask who I am before I'm allowed in to buy anything there.

Why does this upset you so? They wouldn't be spending your money to ask their attorney. So, I would recommend that you post the contract out in the open, because it would alleviate any concerns they might have. Otherwise, your transparency might be at stake with prospective customers.


Uh, I haven't done any of those things....and I haven't called your mother and told on you either, but just because you stomp your feet, won't make it true. The only "unnecessary problem" would be if you sue them or their venues for simply using a hard drive that they purchased directly from Tennessee Production Center, Pro-Sing, or any of the other distributors that were dumping discs and hardware. Any KJ using original discs, SD cards, or hard drives should have absolutely no concerns about being sued right? You don't want to sue them, right?

"lies you posted about quality control..." That's not my invention or lie, that's YOUR requirement -- to maintain a covenant not to sue.

Yes. You REQUIRE "control. " But I don't believe you can "control audio quality" when you only own the trademark and not the audio....It does seem a bit overreaching, unless of course a KJ (or spouse, or best friend, or dog) misses that, and the KJ waives that by "signing your contract."

So, no, I don't see a lie at all. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop calling me names.

Nice try counsel.

The program description is all there is, and it's already out in the open.

There is no separate "contract." There are just the terms described in the program description, period.

No indemnity. No forum selection clause. Basically, none of the things you are claiming are a part of this.

What you see in the program description is all there is.

Which makes what you've been complaining about...a bunch of lies.

#1. "The program" is a contract, you've acknowledged that fact already. I'm not about to ever agree with you that because it's not separate that somehow it's not just as important or enforceable.

#2. And You're putting words in my mouth (again): I never said that this contract would contain an indemnity or forum selection - ever. I pointed out that your gem contract does - in fact - contain both. So don't re-invent history and try to blame me for it because it's not a very honest thing to do.


The "program description" is not the "application" is it?

But this is a doozy:

So, you ARE "selling fear" with your ominous warning that you will sue EVEN those with 1:1 correspondence. if they don't register.

Nice. I knew there was a "stick" somewhere and it couldn't be all "carrot."
It's just seems a little on the hypocritical side to accuse me of fear-mongering or FUD.

.

The only one selling 'fear' is you, Chip, and you're disguising it as nothing but contradictive bs. JH: Yes. Chip: No. JH: True. Chip: False. JH: White. Chip: Not white.

And I thought scorned women were annoying...

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DJ Don

The only entity here that seems to be TRYING TO sell ANYTHING is PEP. THEY USE THE FEAR OF HAVING A LAW SUIT FILED AGAINST PEOPLE AS THE INCENTIVE TO buy thier "PROGRAM". I FOR ONE WILL NOT NE PAYING ANY PROTECTION MONEY TO THE KARAOKE MAFIA WANNABEES.

If you want to call 'the consequences of breaking the law' fear, go right ahead.

The people that went to court or otherwise settled for buying the GEM did just that: settled. They could have hired a lawyer and fought it, but they could not defend themselves, hiring a lawyer would like have just cost them more money.

I'm not defending PEP or SC... I don't like in the least what they're doing or how they're doing it, but what people fail to acknowledge is that they are well within their right; well within the law with what they're doing.

If people don't have a dog in the race; if people don't use SC or CB.... they need to shut the he<< up. They've no business whining about PEP is doing. If you DO have a dog in the race, you have choices. And you know what the choices are. Whining is not one of the choices.

And unless someone (or a bunch of people) wants to spend a crapload of money to fight what PEP is doing (which may or may not be prudent), they're going to continue to do iwhat they're doing.

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DJ Don

The whole point of the law is to cause people to second guess doing something they should not be doing. The very essence of law is fear of consequences. Ignorance of the law is not a free pass. Sometimes laws go to far. Sometimes it does not go far enough.

It is out job as citizens to put elected officials in office to balance those laws. Unfortunately, since corporations at people these days, us small time folks don't have the money and other resources to make this happen. At least not in an effective manner that serves us *and not the corporations).

Right now, copyright law and trademark law lean heavily toward the corporations. If you don't like it, vote for people that will change it. Until you change it, it's just a lot of belly-aching.

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-Chris