Karaoke Forums

Hey Chris, as usual you provide a well written and well thought out objective reply. Thank you.

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread so far is that karaoke sales event on a down spin since 2002. Unless we have KJs can better support the manufacturing side, it should be no surprise to any of us that they are beginning to take the route of custom software with walled gardens. I'm suspecting that the software in question has a walled garden when it comes to the karaoke content. I'm sure it can only be used with chartbusters karaoke, and the content within the software cannot be moved to other softwares.

None of us should immediately dismiss the software for one feature that we may or may not agree with. The overall effect that the software will have on the karaoke industry is to bring the total sales back to those 2002 numbers. Remember, we're an industry that went from 120 million dollars a year in sales down to 12 million a year. The manufacturers are dead or on my support it was just Support any effort they do to bring the industry back to its former glory days. The walled garden approach is one we should support because it also means anybody using this software will not be pirating karaoke.

Edit , this entire post was written using voice recognition, so some parts may not be recognizable.

If I had the resources to open my own restaurant, I would love to put these models/theories to the test, but I don't, so it will all just have to remain speculation in my case.

Sufficive to say, that I believe that while there was no denying the results at the 7 bamboo, I don't think that they would be duplicatable in most other areas. Mind you that is just my OPINON based on my personal experience, which I will be the first to admit is severely limited compared to Toqer's .

As to the rest of it, I really don't think there is any value in arguing about it, it's pretty obvious that both opinions will not see eye to eye on this one.

The only thing that is a guarantee at this point, is that for me the software Toqer allows me to use is the best out there, and until something better comes along I plan to keep using it for the foreseeable future. it really is a shame it didn't get more attention, I would have completely chipped in towards a funding project to keep it going and obtain support that doesn't depend on the original software coder *whom has made it extremely clear that he has zero interest in the project now*,
or Toqer

-James

We wanted to briefly touch on the topics of conversation as it relates to karaoQ within these forums as we've noticed a few different threads relating to the karaoQ platform. We love that our KJ community is not only passionate, but vocal and engaged in dialogue about furthering the karaoke experience for everyone.

First, let me level-set. We are having a Karaoke Summit on October 22, 2015 - so any questions that you have as to the full set of integration, features, value proposition, and package around the karaoQ product, please be sure to check this out as it will be an interactive webcast that will give far greater detail.

So, on to some brief points about karaoQ.

1a.) There has been much discussion about the +Bump feature. For the record, we've implemented an Uber-style surge pricing system that allows the host to control it's implementation of bumps. That is to say, let's say a rotation of 1-10 people is valued at $1/move, so if I wanted to go from 10 to 2, that's $8 I'm paying as a patron through the app. But let's say the KJ knows that supply and demand being what it is, a queue of 25 or more people should be valued higher. When this is the case, the KJ could set the cost per move to be $3. So moving up from 25 to 2 in the queue would be $69. Now, there was talk about whales (having all the money in the world to spend). A KJ can limit how many times a bump can be performed (i.e. only 1 per patron, per night of karaoke) which eliminates that possibility. We've also seen that about 30% of our +Bump activity is someone else in the venue bumping someone else up the queue. As we've surveyed, this is especially the case with bachelor/bachelorette parties, vacationers, etc.

1b.) We are discussing the ability to have a karaoQ Premium version that would be subscription based allowing the KJ to disable +Bumps, but come at a flat monthly subscription, while also including karaoQ Analytics (detailed reporting and marketing for KJs and venues to optimize their experience), and Hits of the Month from our partners with Karaoke Cloud Pro - some being exclusive content from our music label partners.

2.) The ability for a KJ to have revenue coming from the app in the form of the +bumps and tips is done by also allowing payment integration for a patron - using credit/debit card (scan card feature is coming in October), as well as PayPal, Venmo, and Apple Pay. These are revenue sources that are mostly going unrealized today (for the majority).

3.) Likewise, the Tip feature was designed using psychographics in order to prompt a patron to tip using a value from the middle of the screen - which is a higher sum of money (not unlike what Starbucks and others do with mobile pay screens). We also give the ability for the KJ to track tips and bumps hourly so as his night progresses, he can understand how the karaoQ app is performing.

4.) There is added value of the platform for patrons. In it's current version, patrons can rate performances, friend/follow, +Bump up their friends, and receive PUSH notifications from the venue or the KJ (if they are checked into the venue or if they have followed the KJ/Venue via the app). Future builds are including "group sign-ups", built-in repeat patron features for those that come back 3 times or more in a month, and gamification (leaderboards, challenges in dare and versus mode), and also in-app chat and safety add-ins like having Uber pick you up from the venue or drop you off - especially good for patrons who had too much liquid courage.

5.) karaoQ also has tremendous value for the venue owner/operator. As patrons check in, karaoQ creates "patron" records that become a marketing tool for the venue with email, name, and birthday for promotional pushes. Likewise, it can track high-traffic patrons (returning multiple times to the venue), and the ability to target these patrons directly for drink specials and promotions. Future builds are going to include the ability to purchase a number of items in-app from the venue (drinks, apps, event tickets, merchandise). We plan to offer a "karaoQ for Venues" snapshot report to KJs that empower them to take the data back to the venue to show in REAL data how their night of karaoke benefits the venue - including demographics, age range, frequency of return patrons, and average patron dwell time.

6.) Speaking of those statistics, karaoQ, on-average, does about $20/tips per night for KJs and about $70/night in +Bumps, with little to no marketing materials or messaging deployed to the venues to inform patrons about karaoQ (yet). karaoQ patrons return on an average of 2.6 times per month. The average tracked patron dwell time (from check-in to check-out) is about 4.25 hours in duration - a long time that keeps the patron engaged at the venue, in the queue, drinking or otherwise patroning the venue itself. We believe giving this information to the KJ to onboard the venue about hosting more nights of karaoke helps to create continued cycle value.

7.) With the above statement, we've seen several of our KJ companies already expand their operation based on added nights of karaoke. We've seen some venues shift their actual format to be catered to the karaoQ model because of the patron engagement and experience it creates -- this is especially the case when they utilize a tv screen for venueQ (an in-venue display that shows the queue and messaging in real-time) - which also increases patron downloads of the app 5x-7x more. In fact, about 25% of our accounts are venues that never had karaoke nights prior to onboarding with karaoQ, and now have added to our KJ venue pool by creating new business for KJs using the karaoQ platform.

8.) There are questions of how to best acquire users in the venues. Beyond typical print media marketing (coasters, table-tents, banners, signage) there are more direct, targeted, and effective ways of getting users to not only download karaoQ, but to use it and refer others. Part of this starts with in-venue announcements. We understand the KJ host has a lot of responsibility and a lot of 'vibe' to keep up during his/her show. This is why we've recorded video and audio spots (in both a quick 'stinger' format and in 15, 30, and 45 second spots) that can be placed into rotation in order to inform your consumer (patrons/performers) about the benefits of the free karaoQ mobile app. Furthermore, we will be implementing an Uber-style friend referral system where the user can get Qoins (equatable to actual value back to the KJ when used) for referring a friend to download the app. Likewise, for the venue, when the patron returns 3 times in a month (or achieves other unlockable badges) they can receive more Qoins which perpetuate their usage and retention of the app. Going beyond that, we are going to allow the venue and KJ to implement their own incentive programs at some point to expand upon this credits-based system for their loyal patrons and regulars. Even performers who are consistently rated high from other patrons in the app can "win" credits based on performances that not only incentive them to continue to use the app, but give them the ability to utilize the credits-based Qoins system for real-world value back to the KJ by way of +Bumps and tips.

The Karaoke Summit will go into greater detail about some higher value gains by joining karaoQ including music artist video shout-outs, music label partnering, exclusive karaoke content, and other features such as a kiosQ (tablet-based karaoQ app for venues and KJs), as well as karaoQ Analytics -- all of which are to come over the next 6 months.

We are very humbled and appreciated by the discussions that are going on about the karaoQ platform and respectfully value the feedback we've gotten. Know that your feedback does not go unheard - we went through an internal process from January to April of surveying 155 KJs from across the U.S., over 300 related venues, and about 700 patrons (some we consider one-timers and others that we call uber-patrons). On a scale of 1 (highly desired) to 5 (not at all desired), our aggregated scores across questions such as the ability to tip, bump, rate performances, have a digitial songbook, etc.) had a total overall average score of 1.3. All that to say -- the feedback was overwhelmingly positive, and targeted.

We are listening and continue to value feedback and discussions!

Apologies for duplicate post.

If you read these threads like you say you have, you will see that most of us do not like or will support bumping for money. Even Mr. Harrington from Sound Choice said if he was at a show where there was bumping, he would leave. All it will do is bump good customers out the door.

At my shows, everyone is treated fairly. I don't play favorites and I don't give preference to the people with money. I will never advertise for tips and bumping isn't even in my vocabulary.

I do not need your program to run a successful show. It takes a good host to run a successful show, not software. Even though my customers can use their Smart Phone, Kiosk, and Song Books to submit their song requests, I can run a successful show without any of that.

My interaction with my singers, treating them like family, and making sure that everyone has a great time is my success. I don't need yours or any other crazy software to be successful. Like I said, it's a good way to lose customers.

In my opinion, your software is a detriment, not a benefit to the industry. And I have a hard time believing your survey results are true.

If you asked any of my customers who've been waiting 45 minutes to sing and then someone just walks in, pays or bribes as we like to call it, to be bumped up, is NOT going to make that customer happy. Now they have to wait even longer. Which as you can see, results in pissed off customers. Your software will not make our loyal customers who support us week after week happy. It would only drive them away.

Maybe this might work best in a resort town where there's different people every night but not at the typical venues we work at.

So may I say, and this is my opinion: There is not one KJ who needs your software to be successful, except the ones who don't care about their customers or their feelings, you know, the ones who make it all about themselves. And those are the ones who shouldn't be hosting karaoke.

So for me... Never, Never, Never.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Alan, just because you're not his customer doesn't mean there are not hundreds of kjs who will be. Any innovation into an industry that is dying should be welcome. The app sounds like there are other features besides the bump that would be beneficial.

For the record, I will not use any bumping/bribing scheme. I am also not interested in paying a convenience fee to a 3rd party just to allow a bunch of self-entitled hipsters to tip me with Apple Pay because they don't know how paper money works.

But if I were to use those features......

Why do the KJ's foot the bill (by giving up a percentage of tips/bumps or through a subscription) for features that only the venue will use? For data only seen by record and karaoke labels?

Most modern day karaoke software already tracks singers, their history, their contact info, etc. And it is all in the hosting software. No additional app to manage or sync with.

As a life long technologist, I can appreciate pushing the envelope and attempts at disrupting industries. As far as karaoke goes, this app and service seems to benefit the KJ's the least of all while leaving them with the burden of gaining adoption and increased workload. The record labels, the karaoke labels and the venues get a bunch of great data all at the expense of the KJ.

I don't doubt that you are having success with this models in some geographies and demographics. There is also no doubt in my mind that as a more technically savvy generation of karaoke singers comes into the venues, that we will see more technology thrown at us with promises of buckets of gold at the end of the rainbow. But this model seems to promise more than it can deliver compared to the work the KJ has to do to make it "successful".

Can the KaraoQ folks give us a few examples of KJ's using the data collected from this app to "double, triple or even quadruple nightly revenue" as is being touted by the Karaoke Summit press releases? (http://ow.ly/SbBI1)

Industry standard rate seems to generally be accepted to be $150

x 2 = $300
x 3 = $450
x 4 = $600

Can you provide us with a case study or just a few examples of KJ's even doubling the industry normal rate? If you give us a couple of examples of KJ's making $600/night along with some info on how they did, you will convert more than a few people.

Ultimately, I just have a hard time believing that the folks that put this app/service together really have their finger on the pulse of the karaoke industry from the view of the singer and the KJ.

Rotation management is one of the most contentious things we do as KJ's. After 30ish years of rotation management drama, I don't understand why anyone would want to make it even more volatile.

_________________
-Chris

I ran my shows with the same "ethics" as most here. I felt that was the best method for the type people I wanted to attract to my show. I wanted it to be about having fun singing, not out performing or judging. For the area and demographics, I think that was a wise choice.

But I would never say there is only one way to do things. If I were in a higher traffic, higher spending market I would certainly entertain alternate methods and style.

I remember a LONG time ago going into a karaoke bar on Bourbon street. I didn't do karaoke at the time, but I was told that you had to audition before you were allowed to go on and I saw several people sing multiple songs. And they were extremely talented! Most were there just to listen. That area attracts a much different type singer and that location could pretty much make whatever rules they wanted.

Most are writing off this bump thing with closed minds. I agree that in MOST markets it would not be a standard feature in the US. This bump thing could be a tool that could be used for other things. I did a few charity shows and the best I could come up with was to have people auction for songs or people to sing. This could be a tool to use for raising money.

If you have a slow night, you could use the tool to maybe change things up a bit. Getting bumped one spot on an eight singer night isn't that big a deal.

I guess the main point is; the only ethical thing about a rotation is saying what you do and doing what you say. If you say you bump on Wednesdays, you may end up drawing some people that like it.

I think this needs to be a feature that can be turned on and off, so a KJ has the choice, regardless of the version but that's me.

I also didn't set out a tip jar and generally discouraged it, but if it's in an app where it is blind and it isn't a "payment" then what's the harm?

No thanks, I think I'll pass.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Wow, a single, optional feature that you can turn off, and suddenly everyone is shooting this software down. For some reason I'm not surprised by the lack of objectivity here.

The Bump feature cannot be turned off....yet. When/if they do allow for that, it needs to completely disappear from the interface that the singer sees.

_________________
-Chris

I know that you run an automated system and that customer interaction may not be important to you. In fact, your system can probably run itself without you even being present. But the rest of us care about our customers. We want to interact with them and run a fair rotation. In your case, this would be perfect for you. For the rest of us, it is not.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Regarding KaraoQ's questionable survey results...

I invite you to come to my area to conduct your survey. Start with my venues. And let's see if you still get a favorable 1.3 result.

Surveys are best done when they're done by an independent company with no interest in any of the parties.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I do want to be clear that my comments were my own personal opinions as a karaoke fan/patron and not those of Sound Choice.

I *ran* a completely automated show. I was getting screwed on pay, and I needed the money for my kids Catholic school tuition. 3 years ago I quit, took my toys with me, the bar withered and the old owners got out, sold it to a new owner. I went back into Silicon Valley IT at 2 different companies. Save enough between stock and cash to keep my kids tuition paid until high school. Recently took a less grueling, easier job so I can focus back on my hobbies, one of which is karaoke.

But I don't care about customer interaction? My my my Alan, that's silly.

* Do I need to educate you on UI design?
* How about workflow automation?
* How about real time feedback of when they're up, not just, "Uhh, you're up soon dude!"

And that's just the customer interaction side of things. Karaoq has it easy, everyone has a touch screen in their pocket now. We knew touchscreen would be easiest (I won't argue just telling a KJ "Queue this up for me" isn't easier, but then there's google voice) We had to source our own hardware. We had no cellular network, we had to wire up our song entry machines via cat5 by hand. We had to run it through rat/roach/mold infested crawlspaces. (When I say we... there really is several members to my team)

Recently I made a post on my facebook wall about this stuff. Chip Staley (still love and respect you to death man) came out guns a blazing... Just like you are.. Attacking anyone who *might* argue that even this one feature has merit.

So please, put on your big boy pants with the rest of us. Try opening your mind up a bit. Seriously... What business is it of yours how someone else runs a show? What business is it of yours if they run a (in your opinion) something that would "Turn off" customers. Wouldn't that send those customers running into your loving arms? If you're right, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Wouldn't that be amazing if karaoq made karaoke singers feel so burned, that they would run up to you and say, "Oh Alan, we can't stand this technological gibbly goop! We need your presence to caress our ego's!"

Sad reality is, you, me, every other "Non-pirating" person that hangs out on these forums is not successful. Quite the contrary, we only own about 10% of the market. The other 90% as we all know are pirates, and the one irrefutable fact is that at this moment, they are 9x times more successful than we.

End of the day all singers really care about is, "When am I up?" Because honestly, 100% of what magic you work with sound can be automated. 100% of queue management can be automated. 100% of licensed music could be purchased. 100% of us could be making our late 90's rate ($250 a night)

Nope.. pounding your chest about what karaoke should be, while doing nothing for this industry, no new ideas, still paper slip using, probably shuffling disks KJ that is only being hired because what they do is the lowest common denominator. Nothing unique, nothing new, just the same old stuff that's driving this industry into a hole. Just a "safe" bet for any venue. Nothing risky here. Just like MTV or the radio.

You know.. there's a lot of reasons we decided to "hold our software close to our chest" Pirates were one reason, but these lame ancient attitudes towards exploring new ways of doing karaoke (with or without the bumps) was definitely a majorly deciding factor. Why bother if there's a loud minority that's there to discourage you every step of the way? (BTW, bribes were optional in our software, a lot of people didn't use it because they didn't like me. Such business saavy!)



And that's just it. Some of the folks decisions here to pounce on karaoq have no business saavy to speak of. We are the minority 10% here. We are not earning the industry anything...

Let me teach you a lesson in monetization Alan. Can I teach an old dog new tricks?

About a decade ago, my group came up with some video clip automation. We would record video, and whenever the title changed in winamp, we would stop recording the stream and start recording a new file named with whatever was playing. We uploaded over 1500 individual video clips. We got banned for copyright violation.

At the time, the labels had not quite tuned into the monetization google was offering on youtube videos. 10 years later, every major label, every major producer receives a really nice chunk of change from any video containing their music. These labels didn't have to spend a dime creating the content, the users did.

Just out of randomness I tried logging into the account yesterday.. Low and behold, unbanned. Now instead of "Copyright claim" next to each of my videos, there's a "We're paying the fee's" next to every video. Every single one of them is marked "Private" and I'll have to go through and release them all, but they are there.

10 years ago, everyone here told me "YOU'RE A CRIMINAL FOR VIDEO TOQER!" and 10 years today, publishers are lining up to get in on the monetization google provides for using their works. (Karaoke companies have been slow, but I'm sure by the time Digitrax is done reading this, a call to google will go out, I won't hold my breath on harrington and the slep brothers)

And that's just it Alan, and hell, the rest of you damning something new here... You have no idea how things will change in the market. You have no idea if it will fail/succeed but given that they have a solid team, solid marketing, and solid partnering, I'd say that they're in good shape to be a rocketship. 10 years from now, this could be helping the industry.

I've had enough ranting. Please, let's all start quoting me, telling me how i'm wrong in the face of my own solid data, and over a decade of declining sales figures in the NAMM global music report. I can't expect even a micron of your grey matter to figure this out. Just too short sighted to ever be able to.. You will never change, and that's too bad for this industry.

1a) bumps work for the parties you mentioned, but for the most part of the business, we try to cultivate regulars that show up a lot and bumps do the opposite. many of us here have gotten a lot of singers because they LEAVE the places that bump, and not the divas either (they love the bump and do not cultivate more singers).

1b) in order to NOT have something that will hurt the size of the karaoke show, we must pay?
karaoke cloud is accessible to any host, nothing new.

2) paypal is still the most used payment method and SongbookDB has the tip feature already, nothing new.

3)every tip is recorded and reported as well in SBDB. nothing new.

4) most singers are not out to be rated, unless they are playing a video game at home....we are not a video game. Push notifications are in SBDB already. nothing new here either.

5) we are karaoke hosts here, these are features designed to run us out of business and let a venue do it all themselves.

6) average of how many in the middle of a Vegas sports bar? i challenge you to go to a real weekly karaoke show and try it. even better, i challenge you to host a karaoke show yourself, it sounds like you have never really done that. 2.6 times in a month??? we would go out of business with crappy return rates like that. since that is average, that includes 2, 3, 4,or more night venues as well. that averages horrible.

7) name them, i call BS that by telling singers "you no longer matter as much as the one paying me to sing sooner" that business is increasing for KARAOKE HOSTING COMPANIES. venues not using a karaoke hosting company (like everyone on this forum) i can see, but not karaoke hosting companies themselves. go ahead and implement it in an already solid show and watch it die. think i'm wrong, prove me wrong.

pay them to install and use the app? pay them for singing better? really??

1.3???? show me.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I disagree. The pirates aren't more successful, just more pervasive. I am more successful than any pirate I am aware of in my area in number of shows, brand awareness, rates I charge, relationship with venues and more.



The more I do this, the more I feel that singers actually do care about more than just "when am I up".

I started a brand new venue last night. I replaced a host that had been there for 10 years. He was disc based, used paper slips, only had 2 wired mics, and didn't use any effects or compression. I received dozens of compliments on the sound, the efficiency of getting signed up, the broad selection of music, buying on the fly, being able to move around the bar with wireless mics; and they loved the Shure Super 55 mic.

Not one person asked me, "When will I be up?".



With all due respect, all that experience and data didn't keep you in the karaoke business.

When you had your falling out with 7 Bamboo, you didn't forklift your model to another venue and garner the same success. The traditional model that we have all operated under for the past 30 years can work anywhere without the complex implementation requirements and learning curve of your system.

I have managed to grow my karaoke business faster than expected and with better results than I ever dreamed of. I did the opposite of you - I left a career in IT to do karaoke full-time. Even though I picked up a day job in IT again, I don't need it. Karaoke provides all my necessary income and then some. I still have headroom to grow and I am not using any of the remote song submission apps, kiosks, automation, bribing/bumps, etc. I am driving up my rates and beating out pirates all without the fancy tools being positioned as industry saving.

_________________
-Chris

As I've said before...

"we are a product of our own success"

There is nothing that KaraoQ can offer to make us any more successful than we already are. Their business plan will only hurt us, not help us.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER!


This forum is as predictable as anything.

OK you and I live in GROSSLY different housing markets. My $980,000 house would be worth about a 1/4 of that where you live. It's not a fancy house by any stretch of the imagination, just your average, built in the 60's stucco, shingle roof 3br 2 bath 1500sqft house.

A KJ in your market can actually rent an apartment on what you pay them. Here? HAHAHAHAHAHA! NOT IN YOUR DREAMS BUDDY. The market rate for KJ's is basically the same wherever you go. If you're lucky, $150 a night, but around here we have so many "I'll bring my laptop, crappy speakers and mics for $75+tips/beer" I live somewhere you can find a decent enough laptop or computer out on the curb.

I live in Silicon Valley. Soon we'll be moving up there though Chris. I've seen the Washingtonian posts complaining about Californian refuge's. My family is coming too... It's getting crazy dry/droughtish, our lawmakers are going so far left they're coming back around to the right, and our cost of living prices are astronomical.

Ya, it was complicated. Not saying it wasn't. Still though, the pervasiveness of smartphones today simply didn't exist when we started. There wasn't any learning curve as it ran itself once installed. You're wrong though, I had it at 3 venues post-bamboo.

Venue 1. Mexican Resturaunt. They used to "Rent" my speakers to customers without my permission, or giving me a cut. Done.
Venue 2. Sushi place. Would never even turn the damn thing on or offer it to customers, had no idea why.
Venue 3. Old folks bar/bbq/live music on friday's joint. Only ran 1 night a week, on Mondays, but the staff there was estatic about having it. Place already had it's own sound system. It had a good run for about a year before the staff had a falling out with the owner, and made him and the karaoke leave. I should talk to them again now that the dust has cleared and there's been no karaoke for a year.

I just have a very deep rooted conviction that it is wrong on any level one can think of to enable assholes.

Paraphrasing Jeff Foxworthy -

If you think you deserve preferential treatment simply because you think you're the best singer in the world . . . You're most probably an (@$%&#!).

If you think you are entitled to cut in line in front of everyone else just because -
You're pretty,
You're rich,
You know the owner,
You have to leave early . . .

Yeah . . . You're definitely an (@$%&#!).

Fact of life, this is how life works, etc does not change the fact that people who believe and act this way are . . . assholes.

When groups like yours go out of your way to Enable these Assholes you are stooping to a sub basement level that even the assholes can't reach.

When someone asks me for a bump I offer to shine the spotlight on them, give them a cheap mic and ask them to justify to all the other singers why they believe they are above everyone else.
This usually shuts them down.
Anyone delusional enough to still think they're getting up next is beyond all hope.