Karaoke Forums

The difference comes from having a known, consistent, predictable pattern that you make singers aware of. If a host allows bumping, then non-paying singers may think they are up next when in fact someone with a fat wallet might be up next.

The key is consistency and predictability. Neither of which can be maintained with bribes.

_________________
-Chris

**To DigiTrax**

I hope the feedback from this thread was able to shed some light on the subject of Bumping/Bribing and how detrimental it is for the majority of KJs.

With that said, instead of caring about bumping, I would be more concerned with why someone who purchases downloads from your site cannot get a detailed receipt of their purchase. This to me would be a much more important issue and one that's causing you to lose dollars.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Touche' Alan B

OMG i would like this post 100 times if I could. All i can say is amen to that!!

Salters still have the problem of a bastardized rotation scroll.
No singer should EVER see their place in line going backwards ie 5th in line to sing and when they check 10 minutes later they're now 7th. Totally defeats the usefulness of having the scroll.

Amen, Alan. Now that you mention - - I’ve been saying that all along for years. Exactly the reason why I don’t do business with them anymore. A receipt that shows only the invoice # and transaction id is not considered proper documentation in my book. I think itemized receipt is a business necessity as proof of purchase.

Over 180 downloaded tracks & only 13 tracks showing in my download history. 'can't redownload the rest if needed. No track sound bite or sample bit to hear before purchase.

That said, I do like the instrumentation & arrangement from their download releases; got that old cb feel to it. I'd definitely start buying from them again the day they solve these issues!

_________________
To be fortunate enough to derive an income from a source as fulfilling as karaoke music has got to be as close to heaven as we can get here on earth!

I show 3 singers on the screen - that never changes even with new singers. A new singer will get put up sometimes at the number 4 slot or maybe wait a little longer - depends on the night. If I get a few new singers, I may do a couple new, couple old, etc. I have never been a fan of of sticking everyone at the end - either as a kj nor a singer because some of them may never get to sing. Around here there are lots of late night workers that come in after their shift.
Also once I get enough singers to end the show - I take no more from anyone new or old. I also never break up couples if they put their songs in together.
This bumping for money on this app - I would never support a product that would make this a mandatory option and pay to get rid of it. It should be the other way around IMO and be a pay to HAVE the 'optional' feature. And maybe even give the option to change it to 'tip the kj' as well.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

i'm like Lonnie, i show the next 5 singers and put the new singer at spot 6. then it's old, new, old, new
this way instead of getting three new singers all they all go at the end of the playlist there is a trade of old and new in the rotation.

also agree, @Digitrax, i don't buy anymore from you because there is no reciept, no record of what track i purchased, no soundclip to check out what you are selling before i pay for it. the quality of the tracks have been mostly good, but this is why i buy from karaokedownloads.ca and Karaoke Version. i can check out the different versions before buying, i get an itemized reciept of what i buy, and they keep the records of my purchases. offer what nearly every other business in the world offers and i would buy from you again.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Also the ability to re-download, I have heard from some that not all their songs remain available to them. I haven't purchased anything from Digitrax as of yet because of the mentioned issues as well.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Haven't the Prima Donnas been labelled (here by several others) as the ones that sip water all night long? If they're too cheap to spend money in the place, I somehow don't believe they'd be willing to TIP/BRIBE the KJ to get up quicker (or more often)... after all, (it's been posted that they believe) it's their RIGHT!

YUP!!!! And if I were one of those tourists that got bumped because of that happening, you can bet the farm that I'd be telling all my friends to avoid that place when they go on vacation.

Not the case in the venue I worked. We were packed wall-to-wall every night during the summer and the singers really wanted to sing in front of that big crowd. If you consider yourself a "performer", you would tolerate getting bumped a few times to sing to a crowd of 300-350 people once or twice versus going up the road and singing 12 times to a crowd of 40. It's all relative, karaoke singers WANT an audience, they don't sing in public just because they love to sing, if that was the case, they'd just stay at home by themselves and sing 40 songs back to back every night in their den.

That environment was what fueled the demand for spots in the rotation and led to tips of $40, $60, sometimes $100 to get up to sing. You may SAY you'd never compromise your principles to do that, but that was the acceptable practice, accepted by both customers and management, and still continues there now. It also led to that gig being worth about $90,000 to 92,000 a year in income. There are KJs that solicit that gig almost every week with the resort GM, but to his credit, he's never dumped a KJ who's getting the job done.

And if every random singer who walked in told all their friends to stay away, the place would still be packed every night during the summer months with people lined up to sing. They even switched from smoking to nonsmoking and never dipped a dollar in income.

You are in the minority and certainly the exception from the norm. I would guess that 99% of us work at your typical neighborhood bar and not for a resort bar or club.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I agree with you regarding the aspect of my telling friends not to go to that particular show, that it would not really have an affect on a place like that. In a Tourist spot like Las Vegas of Disney World, there will ALWAYS be tourists that come and pack the place, so the Venue would NEVER notice or CARE if someone like me left (or spread the word to others not to come).

But, like Alan just pointed out, those places (Resort/Tourist Bars and Casinos) are the exception to the norm. I highly doubt that you would find that to be acceptable in your average local neighborhood Bar (which is where most KJs work).

I agree, Cue And Alan, it is the exception to the average KJ situation. Some days I wish I was still working there, but most days I do not. It was a stressful and dramatic environment and I'm getting too old for that, especially with working until 2 am or later.

A singers list everyone can see, already done that.
Bumps though.. I'll tell you my experience.. 12 years of it.. And feel free to PM me if you want more.

I did it in software. A lot of folks here are arguing about KJ integrity, well, that's why you let the software do it. Then your integrity boils down to, "Did I enable a checkbox in the software to allow this?"

Allowing bumps isn't a very easy thing to do. For us, coming up with a "Perfect Algorithm" for it took at least a few years of trial by fire, watching the crowds and learning from it.

1. Enabling "bumps" attracts "whale" customers.
"Whale" is a term used by the casino industry, it means a customer with a bottomless wallet. Having a whale customer suddenly gives you whole new challenges. Let's go through them.

2. There must be "limits" to test how deep a whale customers wallet is
For us that meant ditching "Set" pricing on bumps. When we started, it was a flat, $1 per person you cut in front of. Unfortunately the whales would come in, and just bump themselves up to next each turn. We applied the following accumulative weights.

wait times $0.05
2x per out of round bump
2x per bump in front of a "New" singer

So if a person had been waiting 20 minutes, bumping in front of them would be $1. If a whale was moving a song from say, round three to round 2, it would be multiplied 2x, and 4x in front of a new singer. Remember, these prices are "Per playlist item" so if a person cut in front of 5 new singers, they'd be looking at $100 (these bumps were paid often)

I could honestly write a book on this, but I'm tired, and I'm afraid I'm about to get a lot of crap talk from my fellow KJ's about what a sleaze bag I am for enabling "Accept Bumps" in my software. Just not worth the headache. As I said before digitrax, feel free to PM me.

There are two types of KJs. Those who care about their customers and those who care about themselves.

The ones who care about their customers will:

run a fair rotation
not play favorites
make every singer feel special
not accept bribes
and not alienate your customers by catering to the rich and famous

Most of us here fall into this category and have also stated they would not support and walk out of such shows where bribing/bumping is accepted.

Unfortunately, there are a very select few who don't care about fairness, and peoples feelings. They don't care who they hurt. Their only motivation is self motivation. If they can make a buck at the expense of hurting others feelings is not important to them. And that's sad.

I have customers that come out week after week and stay all night and support me and the bar. I'll be damned if I would ever do anything so detrimental to these good people.

Most singers can't afford to go out every night. Their big night out is for karaoke. They came out to sing and have a good time. Not to feel inferior because someone else has more money then they do.

I will bend over backwards to make my customers happy. They are people with feelings. And they deserve to ALL be treated fairly. And I see to it that it happens.

So, personally speaking...

KJ's who make it about the singers, ALL singers, I applaud. To those who make it about themselves, I have no respect for.

Sorry but some of us do care about people and do have ethics.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Alan I read your reply as I was eating, and was eagerly awaiting to respond when I got home.

I'm not lacking ethics, or any of the other thinly veiled insults you've thrown my way. I'll refrain from returning fire in the same manner because I think it's just a better way of doing it.

You mention, "Care about the customer"... What if this is what the customers want?
You mention, "Fair Rotation"... Isn't "fair" rotation simply adhering to a strict, and mutually agreed upon ruleset between you and your customers?
You mention, "Not playing favorites" How can software play favorites?

I only focused on replying to those three points since their answers can cover anything else you've mentioned. If Digitrax decides to add bribes in as an "Option" they're not forcing you to use it. Is it a good option for you? No, obviously you don't want it, but if some do then having the option does deserve merit.

Now please don't insult me anymore or call me names. It takes everything I have not to fire the same venomous spite back at you.

I don't believe I've ever called you any names. I carefully re-read my post above to make sure. My response is not specifically aimed at you directly, even though it's in response to your post, rather to all KJ's who share your views on accepting bribes.

I said everything I had to say in my post above. Most of the KJs here agree with me and want to serve their loyal supporters...equally. I know I do.

OK, I'm done with this. Obviously, we don't see eye to eye on this issue and probably never will.

Peace.

_________________
Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

It is a TERRIBLE feature. Bumping for money is ridiculous. I don't do it without that program, why would I do it WITH that program?? Most of my customers are also my friends. We have all been together for a good while now, and we are always getting new people who are added to our collective. We like to keep them. Now, I keep a scroll going, as I use Karma. Depending on the night, I will, either, stick ALL new singers at the bottom, or if it is REALLY busy, I will do some salting.

Nobody gets bumped, except in the case of the next singer isn't ready, or is outside. Then I will skip them, but come back to them as soon as they are ready. If I am near the end of the rotation, everyone goes to the bottom. If I am at the top of the rotation, then I will drop people in where I think I can fit them. I explain this to my singers, and they are ok with it. I don't want newcomers to have to wait an hour or two to sing. Everyone stays happy, and I get new regulars all the time.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE