Karaoke Forums

I've been watching the KaraoQ thread, and observed quite a lot of strong language in regards to alteration of the singer rotation beyond a first-come, first-served mentality.

I'd like to understand is why this is so. I can see a certain amount of fairness in using it as a starting point for the night, but I'm having trouble understanding why a KJ wouldn't accept money to advance someone in the rotation. I've seen strong language like "bribe" used in this context, and need help figuring out why some KJs feel this way.

As has already been noted in the other thread, rotation bumps are "business as usual" in some venues and markets. What makes those markets materially different?

Not throwing shade at anyone who thinks otherwise - I'd just like to wrap my head around the reasons.

Thanks in advance.

For some, it is seen as part of the host's integrity that they don't "play favorites." Taking money to bump someone can be seen as not giving every person their fair turn and it is one of the favorite things for some singers to gripe about and change shows over. I actually was fired on the spot for not pulling a singer off stage (mid-song) to put up the owner's relative so that is how strong the mentality can be as far as not wanting to get a reputation for unfair rotation.

Do you feel the dynamic is the same if a) there's a transparent "leaderboard" display so everyone can see the rotation status; b) you can bump someone else as well as yourself; and c) everyone has access to the same bump opportunities?


That's... putting your job where your mouth is. Kudos to you for sticking by your principles.

Let's say you are at the grocery store, and EVERY time you go to checkout, after you have been waiting in line for 10 minutes, the cashier tells two people that just got to the store that they can jump in line in front of you for a 5% surcharge.

The equally nice grocery store down the street does not have the same policy, and it takes you 5 minutes or less to check out, without any line jumping or surcharge.

Next time, which grocery store are you going to? Isn't policy #1 bad for business? Do you think the 5% surcharge they are imposing to let people jump the line makes up for all of the loyalty they will lose due to their policy?

Now, let's say you are at the karaoke bar. You got there at 6:00 p.m. right when the show started. Your turn is up at about 6:30. At 6:30, two people come in at 6:29 and pay the KJ to let them go next. Your turn is now 6:40. But at 6:39, two more people pay the KJ to let them go next. Your turn is now 6:50. You get to sing, but now you realize that even though there might be 8 people in the rotation, you have no idea when your next turn might be, because there might be 5 people that come in and pay the KJ to go next.

Even worse, let's say you are waiting for your last song of the night. The KJ has room for 5 more singers, and you are #4. You have been at the bar since 6:00 p.m.. Some drunk chicks comes in and pay the KJ to sing. You now no longer get to sing.

It's just bad business for this to be your RULE. Now, if someone offers $20 to sing next, well I know that happens about once every 20 shows, so I'll take your $20. I'll even tell the crowd over the mike exactly what I'm doing and why. But to take $1, $3, $5 to reshuffle the rotation throughout the night, it's very unfair, and that extra $20-30 you are going to make is not worth the attrition your show is going to feel from otherwise loyal regulars.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

$20 buck for me and a round for the house, You got a deal.

To treat EVERY SINGLE person that sings at your show fairly, you CANNOT have tipping to bump.

Why? Because not EVERY SINGLE person who sings at your show can AFFORD to tip to get bumped. There is automatically an inequity you have absolutely no control over

It's as simple as that. As for why it works in some very specific markets? Culture and in the case of areas where it is primarily tourists well there are no regulars to upset. People as a general rule are FAR more free with their money when they are on Vacation than when they are at home.

In my opinion, it is wrong and unethical.

I treat ALL of my customers fairly. I don't play favorites and want everyone to feel special. Bumping only alienates people with many looking for another place to go for karaoke.

How would you feel if you went to your favorite restaurant for dinner on a Friday night and was told that there was a 45 min. wait? OK, I could deal with that, it's Friday and they're busy. Then, someone else just walks in, pays the hostess $20, and they get a table in 10 minutes, increasing your wait time to over an hour. Would you like that?

Yes, a lot of hosts do it and that's their choice but certainly not very professional by my standards. It's kind of sleezy if you ask me.

No singer should have to wait any longer to sing because someone has more money than they do and can afford to "bribe" the host.

One of reasons I'm successful is because I try to do whatever it takes to ensure a good time for everyone. No favoritism, no bribes, none of that. At my shows everyone is treated equally. And they keep coming back.

I've been offered money from guys, girls offering to show their boobs, and I will not be bribed. I don't cater to prima donnas.

I will always be fair to all my singers. Always.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Most of the places where bumping for tips (bribes) is done, is at high tourist traffic venues. You won't hurt anyone's feelings because you will probably never see them again.

Let's not sugar coat it, let's call it what it is. It's a BRIBE! Offering cash, with no regard for anyone else's feelings, for their own personal gain, is a bribe. So, whether you call it bumping, grinding, or whatever... it's a bribe. And the whole thing sucks.

We want karaoke to be fun and enjoyable for everyone, not just the people with money that don't care about anyone but themselves.

Got it now? We're talking about bribes. No strong language here, just the reality of it.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I'm in an area where I want repeat customers. My calling card is Fair rotation. Any other Rotation policy that favors the money rich is unfair and should be avoided like the plague.

I run my shows the way I would like to see it done at other shows. Playing favorites or taking bribes is a big no no.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Speaking as a regular karaoke patron...

(Yes, I do go to shows, I enjoy myself, and I do sing at them.)

I'm not a fan of bumping at all, and if I were at a pay-to-bump show I'd probably go elsewhere.

Waiting your turn is something that most people understand is inherently fair, and paying to get ahead is inherently unfair.

However, that doesn't stop me from using my airline status to use the special lines at the airport, and I can't say I've never slipped the maître d' $20 to get seated faster at a restaurant.

If I were a karaoke host who wanted to build a long-term regular patronage, I'd do my best to be fair about the rotation and avoid bumping for tips.

As a singer - I come to sing. When I see people paying to move up in the queue which just pushes me further away, I simply move on to another karaoke bar. I am spending money on food and drink which supports the bar which in turn pays the host. If I choose to tip the host because I like how they ran their show, that should be up to me. I do not feel I should have to pay extra money above food and drink to ensure that I get to sing in a timely manner. That is the way karaoke works at practically every karaoke show I have ever attended (there are a few exceptions).

As a host - My pay is already guaranteed and TIPS (not bribes) are simply extra gravy on my potatoes. Regulars - defined as people that are there a couple times a month if not every week - who spend money on food and drink typically have an expectation of being able to sing with some frequency and that the rotation will not be fudged with. Allowing people to buy (bribe) their way into the rotation can and does piss regulars off. I have seen it many times over the years and I have seen otherwise good hosts lose gigs when they lose their regulars because of accepting bribes. I am not going to risk losing paying patrons, which in turn impacts the revenue of the bar and servers, which in turn puts my regular paying gig at risk.

TopherM gave a great explanation of it as well. People that arrive early and stay late should get to sing more often. They are supporting the bar (which pays me) and they are putting in their time. They should not get bumped down by someone that shows up at 12:30am and pays $25 to sing next.

My karaoke mentor won't accept any tips at all under any circumstances because he doesn't want to ever give anyone a reason to believe that he will manipulate the rotation for money. I am not that strict by any means, but I still feel that a fair, consistent, predictable rotation is more beneficial to all parties involved.


All that said, I can see where in certain touristy areas, this kind of program would work and may even make a crapload of money for the host. They don't have "regulars" that will get pissed off.

I guess what it comes down to is this - If a host has an established karaoke show with a "fair rotation" system converts to a "pay to sing" system, they are in for a bumpy ride.

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-Chris

Jim, if you ever find yourself in Southern Alberta on a Friday night drop by the Grand Central in Okotoks. I'll buy you a drink and maybe I can slip you a couple of bucks to have my certified host audit bumped up *lol*

But seriously, drop by. We have some extremely talented singers. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

Now if I could just get Bryan to call me back so that I can pay to have my GEM dscs shipped, I will be golden. I'm currently working my butt off to find another venue so that I'll have a place to use them for my birthday party on October 21st.

Who knows, if I'm really lucky the advance tracks will be done and i'll likely be one of the few people in my area to use them..

-James

Just to throw gas on the fire . . . .

How can any hosts who "salt" in new singers ahead of the current singers in the rotation complain about bumping? Both the salters and the bumpers are cutting in front of people who are already there.



My rotation scroll is ALWAYS on and consistent ALL night long. New singers ALWAYS get placed at the end of the line. No bribes, excuses, or other underhanded garbage.
Common courtesy plain and simple.

What? you have to leave? Sorry to hear it. See you next time.
Want to sing right now? I'll make an announcement and see if any of the upcoming singers want to make a deal with you to take their spot in this rotation. Otherwise, Sorry, no can do.

Count the number of singers. multiply by 4 and you know how long the wait will be.
You can then make an informed decision of whether to wait or not.

Maybe the developer of the new karaoke program was going by how jukeboxes work these days. Those do have a feature where you can bump your song over someone else's by paying more so in that regard it is "routine." But there are still bad feelings over that in my area because there are groups who don't like each other's music so one group will run off the other group by over riding their songs with paid bumps.

I've had a bit of blow over from this at my karaoke show as people think they can get me not to let certain people sing their songs and if I let them sing, they may leave. Instead of fostering the welcoming, supportive atmosphere that I like at a karaoke show, I get people thinking that one group or another shouldn't be allowed in or allowed to sing. I go by everyone gets their few minutes of fame to sing what they like and in any language and we all should be supportive and get along. But this juke box bumping thing seems to have trained people to think they have the right to control the night rather than be fair, give everyone a turn and get along.

So the consensus is:

1. It may be acceptable in tourist establishments where there are new people every night. These places have no regular following.
2. For everyplace else, it is unwelcome and not wanted or supported by most karaoke hosts.
3. If as a singer, we visit a venue that did bumping, we would leave and find another establishment that offers a fair rotation for everybody.

So, the majority rules: We do not endorse, promote or support bumping/bribing.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Tipping is acceptable, but not "blatantly" encouraged.

Bribery is frowned upon. Bumping people in the list is unfair to everyone else. A consistent and fair rotation is the hallmark of successful karaoke entertainment. That is why I, like others here, display the entire singer queue at all times. My regulars watch that list so they know when to be ready. If I started messing with that, I'm sure I'd hear it.

My "UpNext" level of karaoke service is premium and the service starts at $100.00 cash only. I've announced this by saying something like: "This next singer is up now because of a medical emergency... they're bleeding money."

It is meant to be a reasonable deterrent. If someone wants to sing badly enough to pay an "unreasonable fee"... then let them have at it. It happens so infrequently that no regular has ever complained, though I have no way of knowing if anyone left or stopped coming because of it. I'd point out that if it does happen it's usually on a high-energy, long wait kind of night and it is usually a visitor and not a regular.

BTW - Don't dismiss the possibility of regulars in "touristy" places. Some nights I tag 25 or more.

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Never the same show twice!

Digitrax, if i am bumping you down who knows how many times because I am getting paid that doesn't seem wrong to you?
Dave has money so Jen has to wait doesn't seem wrong to you?
would you go back to a show where the ones with money keep getting up before you?

the way your OP looks, you have never hosted a karaoke show have you?

think of it like this...

Digitrax wants to put out the new Ke$ha song
you need me to approve the sync rights once i am done with approving SC's
nevermind, All Star bribrd me to ge next, you have to wait till they are approved
nevermind, Sybersound bribed me to go after all star, you have to wait again
nevermind, DMX just bribed me to go next, you have to wait again
nevermind, Karaoke Channel just bribed me to go next, you have to wait again
sorry, all out of time for approvals today, try again next week and bring more money.

the diference is.....
the singers have other options and will not come back.
if you had other options for the sync license, you would go elsewhere too.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Last in line means last in line. 15 singers when you get there, 14 singers are in front of you before you sing.
New Singer will always sing just before the current singer on stage.
The only variation I make is when the current singer is part of a regular couple or group who always follow each other and don't want to be broken up by a new singer. In that case I put the new singer just before the first person of the couple or group the next time around.

So far no has even asked before. A round for the house would be around $200 bucks most nights