Karaoke Forums

That would still fall under
[]Allow Ranking/Critique
[]Do NOT Allow Ranking/Critique
[]Allow comments only
[]No Ranking/No Comments

The point being that if folks want to be ranked, they should also have to allow critiques (that doesn't necessary mean the person doing the ranking MUST leave a critique!!)

Great Topic!

As you probably saw in another topic (or two) the items that I am attempting to add. These modifications are a bit more complex than I had originally imagined. I am working on implementing these but the testing keeps giving me errors. I hope to have this completed soon (Of course, I've been saying that for awhile) So forgive me for being so slow...

Hmmm...
Made me smile in a few places while reading this... I really got a chuckle out of the "Comment Convertor"

I guess, that would be another Checkbox (after they checked "Critique me")




PHILL

hahah yeah I like the 'comment converter' thing too

What do you think of the idea of not allowing ranking if the person won't accept critiques?

I'm sure I'll probably get attacked for even commenting on this thread but oh well.

When I originally came to this site I thought it'd be "fun" community place to get some constructive feedback on what people were thinking when they hear me sing. I upgraded to a pay membership not long after joining here.

Reading this thread, I have found myself comparing the comments being made here those that are frequently made by Simon "Scowel" of American Idol. While a lot of the times I agree with Simon's opinions, I do think that there could be a better presentation of his opinions and at times I've seen where there could be a better way of presenting some of the criticisms (excuse me "critiques") that have been posted here.

Now I see this: "What do you think of the idea of not allowing ranking if the person won't accept critiques? "

Where does it end? Maybe we should then provide critiques and ratings of the critiques themselves. Geez.

I'm a little concerned that this "fun" place I thought I'd found is going to be more wrapped up politics and what can or can't be done or can or can't be said, etc. than is worth the $$ I'm paying to be a member here.

If I'm paying to be a member then why couldn't I have a ranking (even if it's a bad rating) without having to read harsh comments? No one is forcing anyone to listen to their songs or much less actually comment on them. After my first two songs I've hardly had anyone comment on my songs - and listening of them has gone down too. So I guess that sends a message in itself too - an unwritten one.

I feel like people are losing sight of what karaoke really is (plz do not quote the site's FAQ's to me - I've seen them). This isn't a "talent" competition and it's also not Star Search or American Idol. And yes I've made a comment about the "fluff" I've seen, but again -- when a bad singer sings on karaoke night doesn't the audience clap for them when they step down? When someone types something it's hard to read into it the emotion of the person that typed it (ex. were they disgusted, did it still sound ok, etc.) but like I said - the overall presentation of the critique says volumes too. Adding something like "not quite there yet but keep trying" or "seeing improvement" or "this song didn't quite fit your voice but maybe try song ____________" can at least make a person feel like they weren't being boo'd off the stage.

Quote:

The point being that if folks want to be ranked, they should also have to allow critiques (that doesn't necessary mean the person doing the ranking MUST leave a critique!!)

Ah.....but if we don't do THAT....we then are told we want only fluff!! I don't want to be ranked....i don't want to be critiqed....i am not trying to better my singing....i was putting them UP only for fun. Which meant....if you thought i was terrible and you chuckled....YOu had FUN with my song. I know i am not a great singer.....and hey....thats okay by me.....I like the comments when people joke with me and i joke back......that's what i love the most about the comments.

Again, i have NO problem whatsoever with someone wanting all those things.....i Have a problem.....Me, myself & I giving those things. I still don't get that if i say....nice sing....or something NICE....it's fluff! It's being nice. I just don't have it in me to critique...period. So, i guess for me the NO COMMENT box will work.....since unless you DON"T want me to say anything but how you could do better or such.....and i have just admitted....i don't feel comfortable.....then i can just listen. I sure wish i could leave a smiley though.....just to let someone know...i appreciated their effort.

Thats just my opinion. So long..... [/quote]

_________________

Unfortunately, ANY 'negative' comment, even if it is constructive, is being compared to 'Simon'. I haven't run across any comments in perusing the submissions, that are even close to the pompous, snide remarks Simon is known for. Simon is honest, but very very rude. I am simply honest... but some people tend to take it as being rude because they aren't used to hearing honesty. Not pointing fingers at YOU here Foxe, because you have not done this (that I know of), but others have.



Obviously, critiquing the critiques is going overboard. If people want to do that, they come here (the forums). The scenario I am trying to avoid, is the one where folks say "rank me, but no critiques!!" That essentially means they want all 10s or they will be unhappy. It also means that their buddies will run in and GIVE them all 10s, even if the song is awful, thus allowing really bad songs to be in the 'highest ranked submissions' list.

There is just something inherently wrong with that. Of course, even allowing critiques will not completely prevent that from happening, but it will slow it down a bit.



I don't see anything wrong with having a '[]Ranking Only' option... but Phill is probably pulling his hair out trying to make the most people happy. As we all know, it's really up to him, bottom line.

Opinion. After all we have the whole spectrum here of people who have been singing and performing since they were 15 (40 years) and people who sing because they like to and well, I think believe if you open your mouth and sounds comes out, you are singing.

We, have what has been called fluff, and that is where these groups of mutual admiration and friendship form and 10s abound based on friendship rather than musical ability. Then if someone comes along and honestly, not cruelly, critiques a performance, and pulls somes 10 down to a 5 based on one sincere and meant to be helpful critique, they are told to go away.

Singing is an art. Karaoke is an art. No doubt you can go to a bar, or post music and a group of friends will cheer and hoot 'cos they love you and want to make you feel good and so forth. It's like performing for your family, or friends, or some guy or girl who is in love with you, and just about everything you do is wonderful. They see you as a kind, wonderful, beautiful person, and don't want to make you sad and share your joy singing something, without a critique.

Problem is Karaoke or not, rating should not be based on love or how much fun the person had when performing as far as their performance.
I agree with Syber, who is also my wife and a performing musician. If you step up on the stage and you put yourself out there, and want honest sincere opinions on your voice and performance, then you need to be ready for a few twinges when someone comments constructively.

A lot can be ascribed to personal taste and genre. Personally, I hate rap.
Obviously, there are millions who do share my taste in music. Yet there are standard good things which made a good singer, and great things that make a great singer, and finally fantastic things that make an awesome singer like Jewel, or Linda Ronstadt, or some of the true masters of voice who are akin to the opera singers of pop.

Few of us can hope to be another Elvis, Roy Orbison (my big favorite), or John Lennon. Professional singers and those of us who record have their moments - and they have there songs they just cannot do but love to do anyway. I love to do Doors.

My mom used to sing in church. She could not sing on pitch, and did not sing well. I am sure God and those religious types around still were inspired and felt the beauty of her singing, but she couldn't sing. So we have a few, what I consider absolute qualities which you can still sing all the karaoke you want, but are baseline not goods for a singer. 1) you can't stay on pitch. - This is painful. For most it is a percentage of on versus off. For some - I have heard Twisted sing on here and a few others, and they are 99% on key. Sometimes when they go for that high stretch or when they sing louder and the diaphragm (this how you spell the word) muscle kicks in, they start losing control of timber and pitch.
If a singer sings flat or sharp(except for Stevie Nix - on early tracks they had to manually raise her pitch in the recording studio on certain notes)
you suck. It is the most painful experience for anyone with a musical ear to hear someone shred a song by singing off key. I know women and men who are in bands, and perform, and can't stay on key.

Second, if you sing without emotion. Kinda like a robot on pitch. When you get to a word that says excited and you sound flatline, you are a American Idol clone, warbling all over the sonic spectrum, vibrating, undulating, tons of expression on your face as you sing the word "it" but singing the words with no concept or expression of their meaning. Honestly, and sincerely, it never ceases to touch me to the heart when someone gets so emotional on a song that their voice cuts out, and they almost or do cry. Even better when a person listening cries they are so moved. People who prance through the words be it Dantean Inferno or Elysian splendor, flatline, are not good singers.

Third, if you the tonality of a duck. Timber, breathiness, rasp, whatever cool sound a professonal voice has that makes it rock, makes a singer. The low sensuality of an Elvis or Bing Crosby or Chris Isaac - the strange almost nasal but beauty of Roy Orbison or Buddy Holly, the insane rasp of Janis (who I saw once) or Olivia Neutron Bomb little girl vibrato and reach for the sky not endings, can transport the listener. Even the semi-flat, off pubescent of alt, or the jump and vibrate of Joni Mitchel, Susanne Vega, Alanis, Jewels little girl la la la la la. Then you are in the realm of the star singers. Yet take a voice with the tonality of Elmer Fudd with a nose cold or a female who sounds like you are pinching her nose or some other part of her anatomy, and it is gruesome.

Fourth, Fifth - whatever - breath control, tricks and jumps and sound dynamics, and sometimes just all out butt kicking soul rocking energy that knocks you cold - that's singing. Or a soft melodic strain of Time in a Bottle or If or Vincent - that leaves your throat tight and you fighting back tears - you have a singer.

So let's wrap this up. Do we see movies where some no one out of the crowd urged by friends staggers up, totally drunk, and SURPRISE - belts out or softly mesmerizes the crowd with a song and the dazed talent agent staggers forward pen in hand and says - you want to be a star?

Well do you? All those in favor, then put yourself out there, take the critique (no cruel mean people - just friendly helps) and learn to fashion your talent and become a real professional, ready to stand in front of 20,000 people and feel the blast as they cheer and the pure energy as you experience a high like you have never known. Been there, done that.

Babies, relatives, friends, will probably always push someone up to the mike and they will give it their best shot, and no matter what it sounds like, it will be a 10 to them.

I have heard what I think are some real stars waiting to make it on here. I swear that David Bowie singer guy had me totally fooled. Dude you could do a concert for him and they wouldn't know the difference. And there are some female singers here who rock my world.

And I am not an easy audience.

jvj

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

after just looking at johnny's song karma kameleon ...and seeing what someone has done to his rating then i am so glad that i am here to just sing my little heart out for fun.....i think certain people believe they are some music genius who knows everything....and in my opinion....johnny has a fantastic voice...his tone is pure he is not afraid to try anything different....and he entertains me ...is that not what its all about....so for the person that gave him the terrible ranking....perhaps 1 or 2 might agree with you....but i am sure the vast majority won't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree MissyGG. I don't know it was wrong to have just FUN....just to put a song up for fun....period. BTW....when i was listening....i listened to EVERYONES.....not just those who are i know.....EVERYONE.....why?....for the FUN of it. sheesh.

_________________

This is exactly what I meant, particularly the "music genius" parts - I've had some interesting comments on my singing over the years by some self proclaimed "musical experts" and then when they have gotten up to sing it's just terrible & I'm not the only one who thinks so.

For instance, some of the critiques I've seen on some people's songs that haven't been very positive much less helpful & have come across more as criticisms, not critiques - I've then listened to those people's songs & thought to myself, "wow - that person has a little bit of nerve because their stuff wasn't so great either".

I'm sorry to disagree with you Jean & Syber, but I've seen you both post several times how you are recording artists and use studios and how many years of singing you have had, etc.. I've heard flaws in your subs - just like none of us have a truly perfect sub. And really -- almost anyone can get into some type of studio and record now-a-days. I know of many people in my area that have gone to a studio that isn't far from here & recorded. But it comes down as condescending when it's constantly brought up. Another example of what I mean by sounding condescending is the comment regarding diaphragm & then adding "this is how you spell it".

Yes - I feel you have some valuable advice and knowledge to share, but again there's a way to share it without coming across as though the rest of us are morons. There's always room for improvement, so by rights no one should probably ever receive a perfect 10. And yes, I did appreciate honesty by Syber on my songs - I asked for it & received it - can't say I wasn't taken a little bit aback by the tone I read into it but it's hard to not read a tone into typed words, the tone it was typed with might not have been the tone I put it into but that's what happens.

I guess I see how in quite a few of your posts it seems like like you look down on others & now you want to set the rules of the site. It's one thing to make suggestions but I guess I feel like your posts come across as though you're trying to make the rules because you know better than us "dummies".

It'd be interesting to see how much $$ the site will lose from memberships if all of your rules are implemented. I hope that doesn't happen, but in a job like I have, I've seen businesses taking steps back in the name of "improvements" and it has resulted in their demise. To this, I wish Phill the best of luck.

Just because someone wants to be ranked but maybe not critiqued doesn't necessarily mean they want all 10's. But some people can deal with receiving a 5 ranking better than they can reading someone's opinion, which like I said, sometimes comes across more as a criticism than a critique.

But again - as for my earlier reference to Simon -- there are ways to say the same things as he says without the harshness. As for the ranking bit, I'm concerned that the ranking thing will now begin to turn into "one bad rank deserves another" and that would be really sad but that's what will probably happen if someone can't give tips on how to improve but can only bash what the person has done wrong.

I was also trying to make a point by adding that maybe critiques should then be ranked and critiqued also - I was not serious - it just seemed like you were trying to suck the life out of the site. If you really want to help someone out, the lack of characters in the comments section really is just an excuse - there is "pm" as an option.

I guess I'll say all I'm going to say because I'm sure there will be backlash.

I agree, AND disagree, with everyone.

Firstly, everyone has their own tastes in music. I for one, am a hORRIBLEY picky listener. I have been trained in music, from the age of 3, and grew up, ALWAYS play, one instrument, or another. This is not bragging. However, I have no training in voice, nor, will i ever pretend to. I am NOT a great singer, nor would I ever claim to be. However, I think i know enough about music to know what I like or dislike. I know EXACTLY where people go off pitch, or off beat, etc etc. However, this generally doesn't comletely affect how much I enjoy the song.

I know there are some popular singers on this, and other sites, (and heck, professionals as well) and people who know me quite well, know that I completely disagree about their talent. Even though OTHERS highly praise them, I simply cannot. BUT, there are some singers that people DON"T praise so highly, and I absolutely LOOOVE them (you all know who you are:)

A person CAN be technically perfect, and absolutely impossible to critique. But that doesn't make it for me. It is all about the voice. And no matter HOW perfect you are, if you don' have a voice that grabs me, personally, that I am not affected whatsoever by the submission.

To rank, based on how on pitch, they are, or how perfect the mix is, etc etc, is impossible for me, because I either LIKE YOUR VOICE, or DISLIKE IT. I would either buy your cd, or never give it a second glance.

Therefore, i avoid the critiques, AND the ranks. Besides, no one ever takes me seriously, ever:)

I dont WANT to be critiqued- ever.

I post for fun. I don' have any grandiose visions of my talent. I know exactly how I sound, and know that many people don't like my voice, and some people do. No big deal to me. BUT, i don't want my just for fun submissions picked apart, or ever ranked.

Ok, that was a LOT of babbling.

I hope ANY of it made sense.. you all know I never have a clue what the hell I am rambling about anyways.

First, you might notice that I went and listened to Chameleon and gave it a 10. Of course, you don't have to be good to be a critique. Has anyone ever heard Simon sing? I have made an effort to only post critiques on people I think who want to be professional singers. My voice is most like my song Flow Down the River Recording with funky headsets and mixing with Cool Edit for here has actually made us better singers when we crank up the PA and go live to perform. I for one never look down on anyone singing or have an attitude (most of the time)

I think we have a wide spectrum of people here. Honestly, like a talent scout I came in here looking for a female vocalist to work with us on a new album. I look at my music, like I look at my looks. Some are born with it and some of us have to work with what we got. I have learned to work with what I have and hopefully over time, have gotten better, and will be even better in the future.

If you do it just for fun, then great. Life is short, everyone should sing and dance I think, and seize the moment 'cos well, I think you know the rest - and to the guru webmaster - this is a fun place. Personally, I think a do not rate or critique, but still comment would be a fairer set of parameters, than rate, but do not critque.

But hey, what can I say, I have a neopet, and I have been told they can't die. And sometimes I can't feed her and I come back and she is dying and would I want to come back and have it say "lilkittyisis" is dead with her little feet in the air and that would definitely ruin my day.

so rock on .. and on

jvj

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

_________________

this is a big reason why the NO COMMENT OPTION would solve those problems... for those who don't want the honest comments that may come from publicly submitting your recordings... it is no different than people who do not wish to be ranked or have to give rankings when they listen... but again that concept seems to be lost on a few people here... they complain about making comments be available on each song yet go off the deep end when someone makes comments or rankings they do not agree with... weird... here is my first response to that - it isn't about THEM... obviously they think it is and demand everyone give the same rankings and comments they feel should be given out... god forbid others not see eye to eye with them... once phill gets the new options figured out then several squeaky wheels will be greased... seinfeld said it best- yada yada yada... - tig