Karaoke Forums

This is not a thread started to open a can of worms, but what I would like to know is:

What is the legal issue regarding the sharing of files?

Is the following statement true?

According the fair use act I can give Mr X one of my backing tracks (CDG) and any backings shared for the sole purpose of his own use is OK but may not be used for professional use (e.g. run a karaoke show)


Please don't get into a heated debate about your personal feelings and how much money you have spend on your precious collection of CDG's, but give it to me according the law.

Thank you!

I can't see why that statement would be false.

I mean, if the person who spent the money on the disk in the first place wanted to share a file with me...that is their choice.

The only reason I like to have CDG files is because I like to practice my singing at home before I go to karaoke (I know, I am strange ). I would rather blow it in private than blow in front of a whole bunch of people....

Plus, unless you use that custom CDG site...you cant' get good karaoke CD's with all the songs you want.

I do buy karaoke CD's from Walmart that do have songs that I do like to sing for competitions and stuff so they are there when I need them, and I NEVER take a burned copy to karaoke as they are supposed to be for my OWN personal use.

You can take your statement a bit farther too, Allstar....as in what if YOU gave me a file from a CDG Disk...and then I went and shared it with someone else who wants it for personal use? Would that still count under the fair use act?

Go to
www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

Ive read this a dozen times One time it makes sense next time not...

As far as copyright laws go they are under federal jurisdiction and with the world situation the way it is I dont see the FBI beating down doors to check on karaoke cds...
Im going to a show tonight and the selection sucks If I burn a cd to sing is that legal?/ Anyway have a good one Allstar!!!

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the problem with the whole piracy/anti-piracy debate is that it has crossed over into the legitimate "personal" users that shouldn't be included in the debate but are pulled in by factions such as KAPA and RIAA... It is no longer the case where you buy a product and it is yours to use (again, not in a commercial way), it is more of a case where the "intellectual property owners" such as artists, record companies and such, are basically telling you it is ok to "Rent" but never own their product... I have been a club DJ for close to 20 years and when I bought music it was MINE to use however I needed to or wanted to... I could dub it to tape, remix, loop or mix it live on turntables... I started out on vinyl records mixing in clubs and DJ's often traded cuts without thinking twice... we made mix tapes and traded or even sold our mixes at gigs... we made tapes for friends and family... when vinyl gave way to CD technology things really didn't change... people still traded music VIA dubbing to tape etc... how many people recorded a bunch their vinyl record collections onto tape so they didn't have to buy the new CD??? I would guess alot did... ever wonder why single CD's and single cassete tapes disappeare off of shelves?? because people liked being able to buy the 1 or 2 tracks they wanted for a couple of bucks instead of being forced to buy a whole CD of pre-packaged crap shoved down our throats at 15-19 bucks a pop... the internet (and sharing files) has only magnified what was already happening- people freely trading music they had BOUGHT and OWNED...
the record companies paid no attention before but because the internet took away a big piece of their leverage on artists to make the most money- promotion and distributiion, they stood up and took notice... a live show played in new york on friday night could now be distributed to millions by saturday night without their grubby little fingers taking 90% of the money... and for every research article that says the music industry has lost millions due to file trading I can list just as many who say that isn't the cause of the music industry's losses the last few years... The RIAA has lost more court cases than it has won... KAPA is a joke... they are suing the very people they are trying to win over... their biggest problem is that they missed a PERFECT opportunity to embrace and develop new technology to take their products and services to the next level and instead insisted on trying to bully the buyer into doing it their way only... they want you to "rent to never buy" their products... pay once at the counter... take it home.. pay again to listen to it... if you wanna play it on your PC- pay again... copy it to tape so ya can sing it in your car that still has a cassette player in it? yup- pay again... if while playing their product anybody else happens to hear it then you must now pay a broadcast fee... you might think I am exagerating my points, maybe, but there are bills and laws being pushed thru congress right now that touch on these very points... if I buy a cd (karaoke or music) then I will do with it as I please for personal use... if i wanna convert it to digital form and play it on my PC I will... if i wanna make custom compilations of my fave songs I will... if I wanna trade files with people I know so they can sing in their home, or record for fun on SS, or make a disk to go out singing then I will... is it legal? as long as it is for personal use yes, if they are running a show on them then no... nobody here can give a "legal" argument because, hell, the lawyers cannot even agree on what is legal or not... it will all be a moot point as the next generation of peer to peer programs are being designed to the letter of the existing law, as well as looking at possible future laws, to get around the pirate label... for every file sharing program they shut down there are 6 more to replace it the next day... for every 200-300 people the RIAA sues there are 3 or 4 million more file traders who are ignored... for personal use I would say trade away, if ya like it or want to use it in your show to make money then I say go out and buy a copy for yourself... for what we do here I see no problem with trading files with each other for fun.... sorry about the rambling from issue to issue but my house is filled with sick kids and sick wifee and I am barracading myself in the office to avoid the bugs and it is diificult to think and type with the gas mask and surgical gloves on... -tig

Funny thing is that there is a question in the FAQ of the KAPA site that asked:

Question: I purchased a CDG and wish to send a copy of it to my friend overseas. Their hardware will not play the CDG format with USA specifications (the USA specs part is a newly added line BTW). May I make a video copy of the disc for my friend?
Answer: Yes, BUT the original CDG must accompany the video copy. You can only have one video copy for each disc shipped.

Contrary to popular belief, it looks like they DO allow a 1:1 ratio (as long as the original is owned) AND a transfer to a different media (as long as the original is with the copy). THis almost contradicts everything they have stated about transferring to different media (ie hard drive) & 1:1 ratio copies. They could have as easily said no to the copies & that you could send a new CDG player to their friend. JVC/RSQ makes them that will work overseas.
The way I am now interpreting it is if I transfer everything to a hard drive format but keep the original discs stored or brought in each night then it is ok to use a different media.

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The statement you have is not legal in the United States, but according to my limited understanding of Canadian Law it is allowed there. Remember that each country has it's own copyright laws and depending on where you are located can have a HUGE difference in how the laws apply. There are also some states that have additional limitations so that would be addressed differently.

In the United States, United States Code Title 17 applies to copyright law. In the situation you described your creating a copy of a backing track and gaving it away for personal use but maintaining ownership of the original. In this situcation, if you also gave them the original it would be permitted, but only if you also sent all other copies you have or destroyed them. Sharing of files from one person to another in the US is NOT permitted. You can legally move to another format for convenience (under USC Title 17) and then send BOTH the original AND the transfered copy.

In Canada the laws are different and because of a surcharge there on media they are permitted personal use copies (based on my conversations with a few Canadians - none of which was a lawyer).

Since my experience is limited to interpreting USC Title 17 for potential issues with company networks and storage (as a security professional for a variety of companies and the US government) it's limited in scope.

There are other issues regarding transfering of the tracks to another media for professional use but that's a whole different issue with differing opinions regarding the reading of Title 17, the application of title 17, and specific interpretation on the parts of the companies producing the tracks and their policing organization.

As always, I am NOT a lawyer, I don't play one on tv and the information above it not meant to be legal advice. I highly recommend you consult an attorney proficient in the area you need information.

At present, as ruled by Canadian Courts, file sharing is legal for personal use only. It looks as though it may be appealed, but for now it is legal. Here's a link.

http://asia.cnet.com/news/industry/0,39 ... 035,00.htm

This is also the reason blank cds, dvds, and tapes are more expensive in Canada (to cover royalties).

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Now this place isn't boring anymore! This is what I was missing, a real conversation. Anyway, before I hijack my own thread, TYVM for the very interesting feedback and opinions. I have read how you feel, and there were some actual pointers to www info. My opinion after reading this is

If I have a track and a friend would like to have it for personal use, I'll happily share it without feeling guilty.

If I have a track and a KJ friend of mine wants it, no way!

Legalities and personal choices are two seperate things and they usually only conflict when two things happen -

1. The personal choice contradicts legal opinion/law.
2. This contradiction is seen or investigated by a law enforcement professional.

There is always the determination of guilt and innocence and whether the contradiction (crime) should be punished (or punishment sought).

That aside, there are lots of people that share an occaional track for submitting on Singer's Showcase or for practicing at home. Is it 'technically' illegal? Yes, in the United States. Is is prosecutable? Yes. Is it procecuted? Rarely, and then only in cases where large numbers of files are being shared over Peer 2 Peer networks or similar mechanisms that are high profile.

The laws, licensing and everything else aside, it's your choice on how you decide to act. The likelihood of prosecution is low for sharing a couple backing tracks with friends if you send them directly to them but high if you post them to a P2P network. That's the reality. It's sort of like speeding. You can speed for a while and not have any problems but if you do it habitually in heavily patrolled areas the chances of getting caught go up significantly.

My parents and I know people who have gotten letters from companies to cease and desist and threatening prosecution. They do hunt for habitual file sharing though... Which by the way, agreeing to the cease and desist and signing the 'I won't do it anymore' paper both admits guilt and means the RIAA won't press charges. What it doesn't do is apply to the record companies themselves seeking civil damages after you've already admitted guilt....

The Sound Choice Faq has some good information in layman's terms regarding licensing and copyright - note that it's geared toward their own perceptions but pretty accurate on most counts:
http://www.soundchoice.com/faq

USC Title 17
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

BTW, for those interested, I talked with the licensing department at Sound Choice regarding the use of computer based hosting and thier products. The legal answer is that transfering to another medium is not permitted under any circumstances for commercial use. The practical answer they gave me was that as long as you keep the original discs available (he recommend keeping them in the trunk of the car) and all the media was original purchased media they don't have too much of an issue with it. Basically, as long as you buy the product, have the original available to show in a matter of minutes they aren't likely to prosecute because you didn't follow the letter of the law, but only the spirit.

It was also mentioned they are working with other karaoke manufacturers to put together a DRM system to allow for the transfering of tracks to the pc that would be supported by nearly all the karaoke manufacturers. I was told they're 6-8 months out on the solution depending on how quickly the other companies come on board.

KM with all due respect, you tell your friend at the Sound Choice licensing department to go and blow bubbles. If he thinks for one minute that I will follow his recommendation "keeping them in the trunk of the car", he's got it wrong. I have the disks, at home or in a safe somewhere for obvious reasons. I use Hoster in order to protect my investment.


Do you realise that if you drive around and have for some reason forgotton your insurance papers, that the police will write you up, but will also cancel the ticket if you can bring proof of insurance within 24 hours? Who is this guy telling you to show in a matter of minutes ????? Hilarious my friend, not you, but the people at Sound Choice!

Following from IPJustice.org
This should help clarify the legal rights of owners of Karaoke CD+G discs in the USA. The report affirmed the right to make backup copies of Karaoke CD+G discs and to format shift content (import/copy) onto a hard drive, where there is an original CDG disc behind every hard drive copy of the disc in use. The Conclusion paragraph is below.

The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.

According to IP Justice´s legal research, CDG disc owners can feel comfortable making backup copies and other fair use copies of their discs. US Courts have also upheld the right to format-shift media by copying it to another device such as a computer hard drive or MP3 player for more convenient use.

Nowhere does it state




Come-on KMeister :wink: seems like between all the legal smegal, KJ's and normal folks, we can only agree to disagree! As you said, not even the legal people can agree on this!

Allstar, I'm with you m'man. (although not about hoster! !)
I have RECEIPTS and the discs to prove I own every single one in my collection. BUT I will only provide them in a court of law.

THEY want me to stop using a hard drive or backups, they better be prepared for a HUGE legal battle. Now I've been saying online for over five years that this is what I do. YES, even on SC's own forum. It ticks 'em off, but they have YET to have ordered me to stop.

hmmmmm.

ONE thing I'd like to point out: If SC and othe other companies openly joined with all their legit customers, those that purchase their discs, I KNOW we could stop the burnmeister shows...

I have NO problem with going into a court of law and providing proof of what I own. Once that's done, put me on your list. Follow up occassionally and see that I'm still legal. THEN we can go after these downloading fools! TOGETHER.

Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if we were LITERALLY their eyes and ears? They had that in the beginning of SPIN and KAPA. And then they turned rabid on their own customers saying they couldn't transfer the data! I remember thread after thread going on about the hard drive based CAVS. There were people who'd been loyal purchasers of their product for YEARS basically telling SC to F off because they in turn were telling their customers it was ILLEGAL to transfer the files to hard drive!

I would share songs with another KJ for review purposes only though... matt and I have saved thousands of dollars by being able to preview a version before we buy it to find out if it is decent version or not... I have done that with a few local KJ's who want to check a song out before buying it- I burn a disk, take it to them, let them listen and then they can decide to buy or not- I don't let them have the disk of course, it goes home with me but they now can make an informed decision on where their limited budgets are spent... just another tool in the box...-tig

exactly. I preview them the way you do online with partial segments. One of the sites I get my customs through is STTW, and you can preview with graphics 20 seconds worth. You want try the whole song, become a streaming member. Only about 5 bucks a month (I THINK).

This whole thing came about with Evanescence's "Bring Me To Life". I was able to try out Chartbusters, Top Hits Monthly, Star Discs, Music Maestro's and one other (unsure what it was), before I heard the EK version. My GAWD was that good. Knew right away I was going to get it.

Fortunately, STTW came along and they had an agreement with them to have it as a "bought in" track. EK's audio with STTW's graphics. FANTASTIC version. (Unfortunately, STTW did the song themselves, but it's no better than the THMR version... it's okay!). Sound Choice came out MONTHS later with theirs, but by that time, I'd already gotten the STTW version.

I'm convinced Tiggr27's correct. We've saved literally THOUSANDS by being able to test out some of the more popular brands out there... and make educated decisions on my purchasing processes. I've even been buying custom discs from SC, rather than their whole discs, because I already HAVE most of the songs either with them, or other reputable companies... the custom is only for those I don't have. Another example, I'm now going back and getting the DK1-99 series, piece by piece on EBAY... (great, y'all will probably out bid me now! !), because I was able to test them out and see that they're pretty good, plus it helps fills holes in my library.

Matt

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr matey.... well like most people with limited budgets to spend on karaoke discs, it just makes sense to preview, if you can, the songs before ya spend your money... most CDG companies do not let you return disks for your money back just because ya don't like the versions, probably because of how easy it is to dupe CDG's... it has also exposed us to a number of manufacturers that we otherwise would have never even looked twice at... - tig

Keep in mind that I didn't say any of that in the previous post, I asked and that's what I was told.

Would I keep them in my trunk? Hell no. I'd keep them at home, safe and sound. I'm going to move to computer based hosting because I don't want to haul 300+ discs around and it's not a small investment of money OR time (to find, purchase, catalog, etc). If they want to check out the legalities of my system they can come to my house and check every track I use against one on my shelf - period.

The funny thing is that fair use/format shifting applies to consumers and doesn't apply to commercial use according to Title 17. I've yet to see a business sued for format shifting and I tend to follow this pretty closely.