Karaoke Forums

Well, I'm still a newbie here, but I've always done my best to be completely honest, yet fair, when critiquing a work, whether it's music, writing, whatever. I've commented on close to 60 songs now (it's hard to tell how many exactly, since people often remove the songs), including many of you who will read this post.

I've gotten some positive responses from my comments, as well as some very negative responses, including one just yesterday who told me that if I found her subs 'offensive', I should just not listen to them. Now to me, THAT is rude.

This is directly from the Singer's Showcase FAQ:

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We would like you to rank the performance, if the submitter has permitted this. You can select "prefer not to rank" this will not count against the singer! The comment section is to either:

-explain why you provided that score
-give the submitter critiques of their performance
-let them know that you enjoyed it

Preferably you would do a little of each, but at least one of the first two. The comment section is not to start a conversation/discussion, that is why we have the forums.
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And:

Just remember by submitting your songs in the Singer's Showcase you are welcoming others' to provide their comments. You may not agree with the comments or ranks given, nevertheless, it is inappropriate to berate someone in the comment section of the song submission. Most will be critiques to help you improve. However, if you have a valid complaint, please contact the site administrators who will then determine the appropriateness and possibly remove the offending post.
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It is not only my 'opinion' that songs submitted to the Singer's Showcase are an open invitation for anyone to listen and critique, it is part of what the Singer's Showcase was founded on. That is what I do. My comments are not simply subjective (or 'my opinion'), they are based on clearly measurable and defineable aspects of a submission. Some of these primary aspects are: pitch (whether or not the vocalist hits the right - or at least appropriate - notes in the song), timing, emotion, vocal power, tonal quality, control and mixing... to name a few. You will see me mention these things over and over again.

When I critique, I never simply say "jeez that sucked". I will explain why the sub had problems and how it could be improved. When something is simply 'fantastic', I will say so and often why.

Most of people who's songs I have commented on are genuinely appreciative of my honesty. It is unfortunate that many of the frequent commenters here will say something sounds 'terrific! a perfect 10!' even if it sounds likes cats mating in a tin box. That doesn't help anyone. Encouragement is one thing, but if honesty is not a part of that encouragement, the commenter will eventually lack any credibility while the aspiring vocalist drifts away to fantasy land thinking s/he is a wonderful singer. That is not only bad for the individual, it is bad for the industry.

Right now, turning on the radio to any 'pop' station, will result in being inundated with barely passable caterwauling. It's annoying that many of the popular singers in the alternative scene, have started singing consistently flat. What does that do the ear of the listeners? They grow up hearing 'flat' vocals and think that is the way it's supposed to sound.

It is an unfortunate possibility that people who rave about how wonderful an awful submission was, are being honest... they simply can't tell that it's awful, but in a 'singers showcase', I somehow doubt that could be true. I would at least hope that aspiring singers are not tone deaf, but instead are just trying 'to be nice'.

By the way, I don't have a double standard here. When I offer a submission, I expect to be critiqued with just as much honesty and fairness as I give others. How else can we learn and grow from each other? This is a wonderful opportunity for everyone here, if we will only use it the way it was intended. </end rant>

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Hey Syberchick!

I was just going to say what Jazzy just said!

If you have the time and inclination it would be great if you could explain more in depth about the critiques you are giving I think. Maybe start some new threads on the forum so we can get some postitive feedback going. Some on here don't know what some of the terms you are using mean so how can they know how to correct them? I think it would be wonderful if you and Jazzy and a few others who have this kind of knowledge could give some pointers to those that are interested. What say?


BTW, welcome neighbor!

syberchick70, first of all, you don't know me and I don't know you, so that's a fair playground we're on. I enjoyed reading your thread and the first thing I did, I went to your profile to see your comments to other subs. (52 of them at the time)

I read through them all, and could find no insulting comments. You do seem to be very vocal, which, if you knew me, you'd know is what I like, but not everyone thinks that way. If we were living in the earlier 1700's, you would have probably been burned like a witch!

I don't want to go into this to much, so please read
http://www.karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3379 for a totally clear, confusing understanding of what people want.

If anyone tells you they want honest critique, be very very carefull with it, and when you rank them, do not give less then a 10, God forbid

Ack!! Please don't have it moved!! For some reason, I cannot post in the 'Singers Forum' section. My membership doesn't allow it!! If it's moved, I'll be cut off from my own thread! =p

I can completely understand what you're saying. The general rule that *I* follow, is that if the person states IN THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SUB, something to the effect of "please don't be too hard on me, I'm just doing this for fun" or whatever, I'll either say nothing, or be very gentle with my comments.

So, something was posted about this in the singer's forum? Oh my... I'll have to go read it. BTW Jazzy... I think you have a fantastic voice.

Thanks for the welcome and yes, I think that would be a great idea. I guess I just 'assumed' (and we all know about that word), that everyone here would know what 'pitch' is, etc. I'll see if we can get a thread started on it and see where it goes. Wish I could post in the Singers Showcase forum!! :p I guess 'free' accounts aren't allowed.

HAHAH Well, I tend to take people at their word. I've actually had a fairly good response to my critiques (for the most part), and I would hope that when I tell someone they did a 'really good job', they would say to themselves 'gee, this person is really critical, if she says i did a good job, I did a GOOD JOB!!'

You're right... I try not to insult people in my critiques, but I DO like to voice my opinions. As for being burned at the stake... wouldn't doubt it from a 'past life' or something (j/k). A few of my more negative comments are no longer listed as the songs have been removed now, but even in those I did my best to fit as much helpful information as I could in the space allowed (not that I'm long winded or anything... !!).

Thanks

Welcome!

I appreciate your candor in your comments and you do have valid points. I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but there is a very fine line between constructive criticism given with tact and just being critical. What I foresee as the problem is that some people may see that your constructive criticisms are an attack on them. I know that you are simply trying to help people improve (which I find very admirable) but maybe you should also consider offering positive feedback with your comments (the well-better technique). What I mean by that is tell them what they are doing well in and then what they can do better to improve. This is just a suggestion. I don't want you (or anybody else) being caught up in a backstabbing firestorm.

This is just my $.02 worth from a lay-person analyst. Please don't take any offense to anything I said' I'm simply trying to avoid the simmering pot from boiling over.

Hey, no offense taken whatsoever. I understand that some folks take my comments as 'personal attacks', but that is the chance I take by voicing my opinion. I'm not interested in getting into 'flame wars' with people. I DO try to give positive feedback along with the negative, but I often run out of space, and sometimes there really isn't anything good to say aside from 'points for trying' or something. I hate that, but it isn't my fault. Sometimes, I do get annoyed if folks are really going on about how wonderful something is and it's just horrible. I try not to let that slip through, but I know it does sometimes.

I do appreciate your feedback though, and the more I have posted, the more diplomatic I have tried to become. It's a learning process for me too. I was a bit harsh when I first started posting, and I know I even put some heavy criticism on YOU as well (which you handled gracefully instead of starting a flame-war, and we can talk about that in private email if you want). But, I honestly try not to be abusive. I don't feel the need to just 'bash' people, but some folks take ANY criticism personally and respond as if it were a personal attack. Unfortunately, I really don't see a way to avoid that, and remain honest, in a public song-rating forum!

Anyhoo.. thanks

I find this thread facinating!
You all seem to have an abundance of knowledge!! I think the critiqing forum idea is fantastic! Here's why:

scenario:
I sub a song..... There's a part in the song where I just don't think sounds quite right, but I don't know why because OBVIOUSLY I'm not professionaly trained. SO... I'm trying to decide if it's an ERROR on my part, or if I'm just so used to hearing the artist sing it. So... I create a thread HERE in the Singers Forum and ask a for some of you to help me on this matter. Not only can you type a longer explanation, but if I don't understand what you mean, then i can ask more questions, which is not possible in the teensy little comment boxes on our subs! I think that's awesome!!! why didn't I think of this?? !
EXAMPLE-- my Shania Twain song... my voice is completely dif from ST's. Besides the fact that she's a far better singer, (LOL!) her voice just seems to have a lower quality than mine.... so when I sing her songs, I feel like I'm too high, (or sharp?) but I'm pretty sure I'm singing the right notes.....kinda.... maybe! (wow... am I making sense? I'm definately not very technical! !)

btw...
no, I don't intend on singing for a living. God knows I have no ambition to go out and enter contests and go through rejection 8 million times in my life....I do this just for fun like many of you out there.... HOWEVER..... I want to be able to SING like i could! !! guess i should really take some lessons, huh? But why spend money when I can bum off YOU smart people for advice?? !! (kidding!!)


anyways.... MY POINT BEING.... I think it's gonna help ME out a lot! so GOOD IDEA!!


-Crystal

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I think you meant that she has the ability to sing lower notes then you right?

lmao! Tell me about it! Randy called a well known vocal trainer about lessons for me...$25.00/half hour I think. Sheesh, but I'd love to have a few sessions with her if I could swing it.

well yes she does have that ability, but no that's not what I meant.... She could sing a note... then I could sing that exact same note, but hers just sounds richer.... deeper.... I think that would be her tone?

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[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]

wow! thanks Jazzy! That's exactly what I meant.... Can't wait till you can explain this a little more.... very cool. I find if I shape ma tongue differently, or push it back further, etc. the tone sounds different for sure.... I just can't seem to do it with all vowel sounds.... practise, I guess right?

speakin of vowel sounds...Ya know something wierd? When I sing "O" sounds... they're MUCH stronger than any other sound... I have a really cheap mic which gives a LOT of distortion when I make "O" sounds so I have to pull the mic away evertime I sing "Oh" or "told" or "hold" !

anyways... now I'm gonna start buggin you cuz I'm just FULL of questions.... look what you've gotten yourself into!!

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I agree with everyone.

wow, that saved space:)

And, crystal, dont worry, i knew what you meant, when you said lower:)
And, I agree with Jazzy, and I have heard her "tweak" hers.
I think I can generally do the same... or heck, change my accent, or sing like a completely dif. person. I honestly don't HAVE a real voice. Lol.



OK....back to your previously scheduled programming.

Jazzy is correct. Each of us have a natural tone or 'timbre' to our voice. Like Jazzy, mine is on the 'light' side, or (to be technical) I would say that I naturally have a 'lyrical timbre' to my voice.

[note: if you really want to see a bunch of technical stuff on this, go here -indiana.edu/~savail/workingpapers/joan.html - more than you ever wanted to know. ]

Some ways of helping to 'richen' your timbre, is to - open your mouth wider as you sing, while keeping your jaw nice and loose (you sound good on the jaw tension); stand up straight and breathe from deep in the pit of your stomach (in technical terms, use more diaphram - that's the muscle controlling air flow in your lungs. That gets a little tricky, because learning to RELEASE the diaphram SLOWLY AND STEADILY takes practice. It's just like training any other muscle!!). I usually call timbre 'tone'. Jazzy sounds like she can give some really good pointers on this also.

All that being said, you actually sound quite good on "You've Got A Way". Your tone is different from Shania, but still very nice. You don't sound sharp at all. You waver on pitch in a couple of spots (I think I noticed two notes), but everyone does that sometimes. Overall, I enjoyed it.

Thanks Crystal.. happy to do anything I can to help.

! this has turned into a thread all about ME! !

I just saw your comment, syberchick, and THANK U SO MUCH!

ok so this diaphram thing... when I was in school band, I played the flute and my teacher used to tell us to breathe from our diaphram... He says you know you're doing it right when you take a deep breath and your stomache rises.... not your chest...
is that the same for singing? cuz I can definately give that a shot.

oh and "stand" up straight?? well i NEVER stand! ! i'm always sittin' at ma 'puter when I sing.... K I'll try that too...

THANKS!!! your cheque's in the mail!

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Sounds wayyyyyyyy to much like Another Teen Movie to me!

Allstar..... ouch, I played the trombone......


"one timeeee, at baaannd caaampp"