Karaoke Forums

Well one could argue that they are squeezing loyal customers. I don't see it that way. Yes I bought my discs (since 1994). I have used those discs for 12 years before I transferred them to computer - essentially creating a new product as those tracks were not available in mp3g. I could have been forced to purchase all the music again, but didn't have to purchase everything again, only paid a small fee for the permission from that manu to use those tracks on my computer. I would do it with other manus if they require it as well, but at this time they do not, I honestly wish they would though, it would definitely put a dent in the piracy world. Along with separating those that are serious vs those who do this for beer.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

A few years ago I could have easily told who the pirates were. Not only did they have 100,000 songs, they had 100,000 songs the first day they went into business. They also bragged about how they got the songs and tried to get us to join their file sharing groups, etc.

Now it is a bit more complicated. I may SUSPECT some but I don't know. There is a local who has been in business for years that still has on their website that they have the largest selection of songs in the area. Yet their books now list just a few thousand songs, mainly Party Tymes. They have roped off their booth so no one can approach it. They have a high facade covering the front so you can't see if they are using disc players or a computer. But they do keep a small box of discs just above it for all to see. There are no other monitors--only the singer can see what brand song it is. They are very cagey in answering questions.

So did they lie about having the most songs or did they have to cut down their books and now only use what they have discs for or do they still have the most songs but only certain people know to ask for them? It just isn't as cut and dried any more.

this is what you said...someone who started distributing it...that costs SC money. media shifting does not and audits are an idea one Manu made up. going after those distributing these drives would be the smart way.
1) buy a drive from my Bill
2) note the SC only content (ie. Dragula)
3) sure them with the evidence dropped in your lap.
4) repeat with all the others.
5) leave your customers alone

Bill Bene, nothing happened. he was found with kids of copied discs and drives...
ok bill, still in business and updating...
Craig's list...enough said there
eBay...ditto...

all of the people you are discussing in your post are being left alone to continue providing content to kj's...

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

We've never squeezed a loyal customer. Customers are always given the opportunity, even after the suit starts, to demonstrate that they are in fact loyal customers. And every loyal customer who would like permission to media-shift can get that permission easily.

I'm guessing that you've never had to conduct an investigation in preparation for a lawsuit. The fact that you think it's easy shows that you haven't ever done it.

Bill Bene went to federal prison for six months as a result of the criminal charges laid against him for sales of counterfeit karaoke products.

In Harrington's role, he has to provide evidence to prove to a court, possibly a jury, that someone has infringed on their rights. They have to be able do more than just say"Well, he has 500,000 songs, no books, and an always on connection to multiple karaoke iRC channels". They have to prove that and more to satisfy the courts

Very much like when someone gets caught on tape robbing a 7-11. Even though it is very clear that the one armed dwarf with the butterfly tattoo on his face and fuscia mohawk, wearing a jean jacket with "Billy Barty For President!" embroidered it in the security footage is the exact same guy in custody, they are still an "alleged perpetrator" until a verdict is called. Harrington has to dot i's and cross t's. Even then people can still walk.

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-Chris

I pretty much say the same thing - "If it has been made for karaoke, I can probably get it."

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-Chris

I actually have. it's a gut wrenching process for someone who isn't trained or prepared for that sort of thing. It feels like you are swimming in shark infested waters. I was told I performed in an expert manner by my council and the outcome was completely in my favor. It doesn't mean the process was not gut wrenching. If you have put ONE of your loyal customers through this you have put one too many. This is my opinion. I am way OK when my peers have their own opinion. To be honest, your opinion isn't much of a factor for me. You are welcome to view mine in the same light. Just know that on 95% of the topic, we agree. But that 5% is a doozie..

I understand that Chris. But isn't that were the investigation should dig deeper prior to litigation? Come on! You yourself are not thrilled with how they handle these things. Look, I think they have actually tried to make strides and I will be happy to acknowledge and pat them on the back for that. But the net is still too wide and we all know it.

Didn't he go to jail for tax evasion, kind of like Capone?

For those hosts that complain that I no longer go out in the field. I'm doing a gig tonight sort of last minute for a friend who got sick. I'm covering for him so he doesn't loose his job. See you all later have a wonderful evening.

he went to prison for 6 months for not paying taxes on the money he made.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

It had nothing to do with copyright or trademark infringement. Beware "the taxman cometh".

The Feds seem to like "Low Hanging Fruit" and chose the easy win.. Tax evasion..

He also pled guilty to criminal copyright infringement and was ordered to pay restitution to his victims.

Danny, you just described the reason so many have a problem with SC' methodology.

SC is suing without cause, then maybe sorting out later. Definitely unethical, and - while legal in civil cases, still against the U.S. judiciary philosophy of innocent until proven guilty.

ACTUALLY INVESTIGATE ( Please Jim, don't bother. It's already been proven a given. Unless of course, you wish to claim on this forum that every single person SC has sued has been PROVEN guilty, as opposed to those intimidated into capitulating ) then FIND CAUSE, then sue. SC feels this is cost prohibitive, and has also learned to follow earlier IP trolling models. Cheaper to intimidate a settlement than go to court with a weak case.

Ethics: You don't sue people unless you have some evidence of wrongdoing. No indicationof that? Sit down and shut up.

As for piracy: The pirates won. They aren't going anywhere. That ship has sailed. SC found another business model. They aren't fighting any grand battle.

Btw: The bit about SC going out of production due to piracy has worn thin.

MM didn't go out due to KJ piracy.
CB didn't go out due to KJ piraçy.
Top Tunes didn't go out due to KJ piracy.
SGB didn't go out due to KJ piracy.
SC didn't go out due to KJ piracy.

They all went out due to bad business practices and mismanagement ( be it paying legal fees for distributing without proper permissions, bad choices regarding product - think Media Cloq -, lack of oversight- think of SC's 3 letter subcontactor, for instance, though after the fact, etc, etc, etc....).

They put themselves out of business. Did pirates play a part? UBETCHA. However, these companies were all going out for similar reasons BEFORE the predicted explosion of piracy due to MP3 usage and internet availability. Yes, SC went later than some, but still only because they followed suit.

Piracy sucks for our industry, but WE are all still working businesses. Why? Because we do not mismanage our businesses. We compete, but do so not only with our hosting skills, but common sense and BUSINESS ACUMEN.

SC and those other companies were found lacking and failed because of THAT.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

And there it is. Why would one have to prove themselves a loyal customer AFTER a suit is initiated? If they can do so, doesn't that mean that they were sued without cause or evidence of wrongdoing ( after all, as loyal customers, what evidence would you have found?).

Of course, if SC is suing any PC host without any indication of wrongdoing one could see how this could happen.

Then again, if this basis is used, a complete disregard for the loyal customer base that built on their original business model is to be inferred. They simply couldn't care less....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I take it, when you refer to "his victims," you are actually referring to SC (since your whole case has been based on Copyright Infringement). So, how's that working out? How much was Bill Bene ordered to pay to SC, and has he paid any monies to SC?

I ask that because I have been a victim myself (in 2 different cases), and all I've received over the years was $25. The first case was against a thief on E-Bay. This occurred around 1996. I bid on a Karaoke Machine for $300 (which I knew retailed for about $450). I won the auction and paid by US Money Order. I never received the merchandise, and by the time I realized what happened, it was too late. The thief got my money , and there wasn't a single thing I could do about it. I called the Police, and they said they couldn't help me. They said that since this was an crime involving the Internet, I had to contact the FBI. I called the FBI, and they refused to do anything either. They told me, that unless my losses were over $10,000, they would not investigate. They wouldn't even take down my name and personal information. E-Bay had an Insurance Policy with Lloyds (sp?) of London, but they only covered losses up to a maximum of $200 minus a $25 Deductible). So, I did manage to get $175 back from them, but I was out the other $125. I wouldn't let this go. I contacted the State Attorney's Office (in the state where the Seller lived (where I mailed my money to)), and also the USPS (because it's a Federal Crime as well). It took several years, and a lot of roadblocks, but I did find out that the guy was arrested on other charges as well, and was sentenced to Jail Time. He also was ordered to make restitution to his victims upon release. Like I said, all I ever got was $25, and that had to be about 10 years ago.

The 2nd case that I also fought hard for was against one of those companies who offer Extended Warranties for cars. At first, they were OK, and I actually did get my full money's worth out of them. This company did not make a dime off of me, because, for the 3 years that I used them, they actually paid out more for repairs on my car than I paid them for the policy. But, in the end, they pulled a fast one on me, which cost me $600 in repair bills to my car. Even those they did not make money off of my policy, they still owed me for that last repair. I kept calling them, and they kept saying that they mailed me the check already. I told them to issue a STOP PAYMENT on their check, and issue me a new one. They said that they did that. After 1 month, all of a sudden, they weren't answering their phones anymore. I found out that they had gone out of business. Well, again, I contacted the State Attorney's Office (this one was in Ohio), and it took me over a year to get someone to listen to me. Eventually they did locate the CEO, and brought him to trial. He was found Guilty, and ordered to make restitution to all of the victims. I did get a letter from the State Attorney's Office, stating these facts, but also stating that there was no way they could guarantee this person would make any payments. Well, that was 5 years ago, and I haven't seen a dime.

So... back to my question to James Harrington... How's that working out? How much was Bill Bene ordered to pay to SC, and has he paid any monies to SC?

According to SC It does!!!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Lather, rinse, repeat.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it. It will still never be true.