Karaoke Forums

The problem isn't with the equipment, it's with the venue under utilizing things.. They simply won't turn it on during the hours that they said they would (7 days a week during all operating hours) I also made them an A frame sign to put out front, which they're being unreliable about as well. At best, they're only turning it on twice a week for very limited hours.

If your cost required you to keep a system running 7 days a week to profit, but it was only running 2/7ths of the time, then your choices are either.

A. Completely pull everything out and refocus on a venue that will run it 100% of the time.
B. Reduce costs so you can turn a profit.

For me it's B. The venue is in a really good location, gets tons of sidewalk traffic during sharks games. Although if you talk to my wife, she's livid that I'm even going to give these guys a second chance.

Giving them cheaper speakers, reducing the number of kiosks from 2 to 1 (only pulled out $11 last week, so what's the point of having 2 kiosks?" and other cost cutting measures should work. If they end up using it 7 of the 7 nights, then I can think about upgrading them again.

Finally, I need to figure out cheaper ways of building this thing so it's less of a gamble putting these out there.

Unreliable and unmotivated people in the bar business? Say it ain't so. The biggest problem I could see is that the people responsible for turning it on are not the people making the money off of it, i.e., manager not owner. You expect them to have karaoke 24-7? That's a question so I'm not sure if that was the plan.

Just another reason why having a body there running things is an advantage. I am part carnie barker bringing people that come into a venue over to the karaoke area. Plus I actively try to keep them there when I see them looking as if they are losing interest.

I still think what you are doing is cool, but there is a human element that is obviously missing and would go a long way toward making it (more) successful. Pay someone minimum wage to do a sign dance in front of the club and actively try to get them into the building and you would probably do better. Maybe even give them a cut of the action as an incentive.

-Chris

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-Chris

You know, I used to subscribe to the "human element" and "Carnie Barker" philosophy for a long time...

I came to the realization one day that KJ's, in comparison to DJ's, are the village idiots of the party. We're not at all respected by the rest of the DJ/Music community as a whole. At times our customers treat us this way. I'm not saying this to knock us, it's just the way it is. The $75@night pirating KJ exemplifies this.

The only way karaoke is going to change for the better is if we cast off these old notions of what our jobs are and be open to change.

You mentioned that you believe it won't be long before your system becomes a standard for karaoke in the Bay area. Is it currently a standard in that area for customers to have to pay to sing? That could be why you only picked up $100 in 2 weeks... because people don't want to pay to sing.

Maybe the place only turned on the system 2 days a week (and only at certain hours), because there haven't been many customers around (bad economy and all that stuff). Maybe there haven't been any people around expressing an interest to sing.

Here's what I'm seing- and I'm talking strictly business:

1) When I start a new venue, it's a 6 week min to get a measure of the success. You've gone- what- 3 weeks and are ready do "downgrade".

2) I don't know what the average KJ pay is in your area, so I'll make up a number: $150 / night. not low, not high.
The average KJ should bring in WAY more than he/she charges to make the show worthwhile to the business.

You stated that the setup was on 2 days per week, and after 2 weeks only pulled $100, or an average of $25 per night. It's not the lack of "turned on" time- the setup isn't generating much when it IS on. Figure out why, and you may give them a reason to turn it on 7 nights per week- if you can fix it.

Keep in mind that in restaurant bars (my specialty) many times they wait til near the end of dinner service before karaoke because they don't wish to disturb the dinner service ( how they make the bulk of their income) with loud amateur singing. That's why most such shows start at 8:30, 9 or even 10 o'clock. As for earlier in the day- well, let's just say that the majority of karaoke singers are night time folks- especially those with jobs.

You have not stated if the venue gained any new business because of the automated setup.

You have not stated what promotion you ( the person who is making the money) have given the appearance of the setup at the venue.

Most importantly, you have not stated what it is about the setup/venue that would bring singers away from a standard show. In other words, while you have shown that you can convince a venue to try your equipment, you haven't mentioned how you will convince singersto go to that venue.

3) You are attempting a downgrade to increase profits by a lesser investment. Making a consumer product of lesser quality rarely makes that happen, it just gives more of a reason for singers to stay away.

Toqer, it doesn't matter HOW you want to deliver your karaoke, as long as ALL business aspects are covered, and I believe there are quite a few uncovered bases that you might want to study. There's more to the business of karaoke than making noise come out of the speakers.

All shows must be promoted. It's YOUR business- you can't depend on the venue. Being techno-savvy, there is no reason not to list on all the free sites- FB, Karaoke Listings.com, Linked In, Twitter, whatever, as well as e-mailings. All part of the biz.

Also, come up with a selling point to convince singers at regular shows that your way is better ( if you can ) and promote it.

Singers want to sound the best they can- I'm still not sure how sound is handled at your venues, and am also of a mind to think 10" speakers might be a tad small for full response in a decent sized venue.

Toqer, unfortunately, sticking a music box in a venue won't do the job of bringing customers in on it's own, and is incapable of building a "loyal following" so it's STILL up to you to make that happen.

7Bamboo was a walk-in gig for you. It was already a full time successful karaoke bar.

Now you are involved with starting karaoke shows from scratch, which means show-building, marketing, and show quality skills must be made the same priority as technical and computer skills.

Again, just business points, no Luddite knock on the system.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I don't really care what other DJ's think of us because I am not a DJ. I am a karaoke host and they are in my opinion, worlds apart. I am not a $75/night KJ and the work we are putting into what we do reflects this. It also allows us to displace those crapioke hosts much faster and easier than before.

I agree that we have to be willing to change, but the change I am implementing is to add MORE of a human element, not take it away. I mentioned in another thread that I am offering to pay Toastmasters dues for the hosts that work for me so they can improve soft skills, speaking ability and more. We are all learning the basic line dances so we can lead them at venues where we do dance breaks. I am going to be installing DMX light controllers that let the KJ control all of the lighting to set a mood on a song-by-song basis, We are getting ready to launch a Social Media campaign to collect emails, Twitter, and Facebook information to get more involved with our singers. We have much more planned. I am encouraging my hosts to be more than button pushers.

If what we want is respect, we have to do something respectable. If we come into a venue with a run of the mill karaoke show that is no different than any other karaoke show, then we will get lumped in with all the other cheap karaoke hosts. We have to provide value beyond just announcing names and making sure there is no dead air. I am not talking about gimmicks either. I am talking about professional entertainment that will be orders of magnitude beyond what most karaoke shows do.

-Chris

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-Chris

Bumping AND simplifying my post, I ask two questions:

1) The CAVS jukeboxes have been around for over a decade. 10,000 songs, all effects including keychange, etc...and failed miserably in all but Asian-STYLE karaoke places.

First, and easiest question: What does your system offer that the jUKEBOXES DON'T, except a possibly larger library?

2) Your prospective customer base is currently singing at their favorite venue with their favorite host ( who makes them feel wanted, comfortable, and confident- as well as knowing how to set sound to their liking, knowing their favorite songs, etc., etc...) and do so at no extra cost above what they spend to party there.

You are trying to get these same folks to spend MORE above their party expenses just to use a machine that doesn't do what the host does. In other words, to spend more for less.
I'm not saying that this is impossible ( witness the bunches of money spent in the 70's for a plain rock in a box - "pet rock"- all because of marketing). I'm asking what marketing plan have YOU come up with to negate the downside?

Second question: In what way are you marketing your product that would convince a singer to give up their favorite place and host ( and all that he/she provides as described above) to come sing on a machine without those benefits at a higher cost?

I'm not being a smart-a$$ her, I'm actually trying to help you. I lose nothing if you are successful.

If you have no answer for the 2 questions above, then you have no real business plan or formula for success.

If you CAN answer those two questions- and I, for one. would like to read them, then you have a shot.

I will state straight out that constantly moving the systems in hopes of finding an accidentally succesful venue isn't going to grow a business. It's a matter of proving that you can make ANY venue successful that will sell your product.

I would point out that the Mexican restaurant has yet to MAKE you a dime. Equipment investment, intallation time, wear and tear, etc- you are losing money there. Rqther than downgrade or pull out, this is a perfect place to build a proving ground. Make it work there, and you will have a product to offer- with references.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Sorry I took a few days on this. Work, Disneyland (daughters bday) and a few other things held me up.



It's nothing like the CAVS jukebox.

* The CAVS system was never designed to have a rotational queue.
* No "Photobooth" feature
* No bribe feature.
* Sure there's a keychange feature, but with mine it's a stored keychange that is applied when the queued song starts playing.
* Also there was never a search feature on the CAVS box, you looked up songs in a book and punched in a number.
* Also there's a ton of web features missing as well. We have a mobile formatted playlist that allows a customer to view the playlist from anywhere, so if they want to go down the street and get a burger, and have time to get back to their song, it's totally possible.



I think people are more attached to a venue than they are a host. Right now we're working on it. A few years back a promoter did a very successful singing contest at 7b, but the owners ended up ripping him off. He's looking forward to doing one at the new venue.


Don't you mean 3rd or 4th


Biggest sell to the singers is a non-biased rotation and always knowing when you're up. There's other staff that can make a patron feel welcomed, KJ's are not the end all to customer service. You have bartenders, cocktail waitresses, etc. Finally there's the personalization a singer can do to their performance.

For the venue owner, it's karaoke anytime they want (as long as they're meeting some minimum usage requirements) Not many KJ's can work a 12 hour shift 7 days a week.


If you say so



Yah I've since had a change of heart with it. Even if I make $20@week on a $5k system, that's around 20% ROI. In the very least, it's a showroom. I'm installing in venue #2 this Saturday, and I have venue #3 lined up. When venue #4 comes along, I can confidently say, "It's running in 3 venues"

Ah. I see. Well, I DO wish you the best of luck in your endeavor !

No matter how it turns out, I believe you will gain immensely from the experience.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I think this line indicates one of the biggest issues I have with this system or any system that allows for remote song submission.

Why would any venue allow people to submit a song, go somewhere else to eat or have a drink, then come back just to sing a song?
As a singer, why would I be happy with coming to a venue adding my song on-site, only to find out that people ahead of me are at home watching TV until they have to get in the car to come do their song?

Or....maybe this is the future of karaoke.

-Chris

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-Chris

Shoot!!!! I'm still stuck on why you want to pay to sing in a public venue. We're not talking about private Karaoke Booths (where you pay by the hour). And I asked Toqer (but he hasn't answered me) if this was "The Norm" he was referring to in the Bay area (people pay to sing).

Cueball,

2 reasons.

#1, ambiguity. If it's everywhere, someone is going to drop a dollar in. As singers, do we really care where we sing? Shower, car, etc. We're addicts. It's not the norm, but it works.

#2. A crowd to please. People like to sing to a crowd, and this is where I break off and answer Chris since my answer to him goes in line with this line of reasoning.

Hi Chris.
There's no remote queuing yet. Just remote playlist. We do have apps in development, but it's not all that hard to pin a user to a location. Technical explanation ok?

Each site does have it's own wifi router. It's a no brainer to get a list of SID's and corresponding mac addresses. We simply ask the phone, "Hey do you see this SID with this MAC address broadcasting?" Sure there's better ways of doing it, but it's an OK start. By broadcasting the playlist, you're letting other singers know which sites are and are not crowded.

My success at 7b wasn't pre-destined. When I joined the bar was dead dead. Like 14 people a night at the MOST dead. It didn't start hitting the fire capacity + crowds until I started working there. I used a lot of different, and at the time experiential technologies to promote the venue.

Maybe that's what I need to start focusing on again. Jeesh, it's going to look so neat having a page that displays multiple playlists. So much simpler to do that these days too. It's been a while since I was here :) Innovate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/01/techn ... all&src=pm

I don't doubt you will have success with it at other venues. I just like the human element.

I do care where I sing too. I like an audience and I like when a KJ does a good job at setting a tone and a mood. Unless I am mistaken, your system doesn't have a means of reading an audience and playing a certain kind of filler song or maintain a flow from a filler to song to a karaoke track back to a filler track.

Not that I am particularly good at it, but there is an art to audience and singer management that no automated system will be able to replicate any time soon.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

What I meant to say instead of "The Norm," was if that was the "Standard" now (people paying to sing).



This is where you have me at a loss. If it's everywhere (pay to sing), then I agree with you... people will come and drop a buck to sing. But, when it's all over the place, and those other places don't charge to sing, then people will (more than likely) choose to go where it's not costing them more money (on top of what they had already planned to spend at the venue (even 1 or 2 extra dollars)). Many people HAVE even chosen "Crapioke" over a good show because of that (having to spend extra money). I know of a few places where the KJ (or establishment) charges the customers to sing. Most of those places are very quiet. There are a few that actually do thrive, but there are other factors (such as the crowd likes the location, or they are loyal to that KJ).

Chris you got to stop making assumptions about a system you've never even tried. It does support filler music by either a directory filled with Mp3's or a shoutcast station and will nicely crossfade between karaoke and filler music. At La Pinata I have it tuned into a tribal station, playing stuff like 3ballmty.

We're up to 280 songs now. Things picked up a little last week. Mostly Spanish.

The other feature it supports is OSC connectivity. A lot of the automated things the system does, it can output as OSC. So if I have my audio routed through a DAW like reaper, I can crossfade between karaoke and sound card inputs. Last thursday La Pinata had a party come in, plug in their ipod (shoutcast radio was disabled) It magically crossfaded between the Ipod and karaoke music.

At that point there's no need to mind read what the crowd wants, because the crowd is in control.

Most of the time when I hear that term crapioke, it's in reference to "Someone that uses pirated music and a pair of radio shack speakers"

#1 My music is not pirated.

#2 These systems are FAR from radio shack. 3 QSCK10's, 2 for the audience and one as a singer monitor. The mixer and effects engine for the next site is going to be a Motu MKIII hybrid. The knobs and sliders for that thing are inside the computer. (Paraphrasing Zoolander)


Edit: Should also mention I only use Shure SM58's. I do get complaints about there not being wireless mics, but I've seen too many of those walk out the door in my lifetime, even when I was watching them. They'd be gone in this setup Oh, and back to the Motu, since there's not a lot of cabling going between various rack components, the amount of EM interference is pretty much null. The only cables going in and out of the mixer is Mics/Speakers. You're old enough to remember those Sprint "You could hear a pin drop" commercials right? The sound on these systems is sweet.

I am not making assumptions. I know you can crossfade, but the system can't read a crowd and crossfade to their tastes. The system doesn't know if you have a 20 something bachelor party vs a 50 yr Birthday party. That is different music.

I am really not trying to argue, just point out that your system has limitations that can only be overcome by a person managing it. I am not even saying that KJ hosted karaoke is better than your system, and I believe you will ultimately have success with your system. I just like and I believe most people like a KJ driven karaoke night.

Karaoke is a niche entertainment. You system is a niche within a niche.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

American Idol, The voice, etc is proof that it isn't niche (BTW I'm getting an op to demo the system to a judge from one of those shows, so stay tuned). Sliding a crossfader in karaoke is a moot point, because singers expect their song to be fairly rotated, not beat matched to filler music.

You would have had to have seen how it worked out at 7b. If a singer was on deck, there were plenty of times they would do that last minute change just so they could flow with the previous singer. I'm sure you've seen it, the singer running up at the last minute with their last minute change scribbled on that paper.

The entire package (even video stuff) is going somewhere though. I'm just not going to say where yet :)

Does your system see when a person or group is getting up to leave then run over and coax them into singing one more song? Which leads to another pitcher of beer? Or maybe even several pitchers and shots?

Does your system identify the shy person in the group and get them to sing their first song ever at karaoke?

Does your system sing a duet with that shy person because they just want to help?

Does your system identify when that one person does a group sing with 6 people in a row and pull them aside to explain about perceptions and fairness?

Does your system know when someone is off key or ahead/behind the beat and help them get back on track?

Does your system encourage everyone to clap and show their appreciation for the singers?

Does your system shake hands with or give a hug to the regulars when they come in?

Does your system add regulars to the list when it sees them walk in the door even before they come up to put a song in?

Does your system learn that someone in the house is having a birthday/anniversary/wedding/something else special and make the person(s) feel special as well? (and putting a "Happy Birthday NAME!!" on screen is *not* the same)

Karaoke is an inherently human interaction activity. There is a reason why karaoke juke boxes - which have been around for years - have not replaced the personable host.

In spite of the (fading) success of American Idol and the great success of The Voice, karaoke as a whole is niche entertainment. There are tons and tons of bars in every major city that do just fine without karaoke. If automated karaoke systems, which again, have been around for a number of years were so good and successful, they would be in every bar. They would have eliminated the physical host or at least made a noticeable impact.

Your success at 7B is a great story (that ultimately ended we should note). But it was one place in one geography. Every karaoke host that has worked multiple locations knows there is no such thing as a one size fits all karaoke show. Every venue is different and every audience on every night is different. No computerized system in the world (that exists today) can read a room, adjust to accommodate and be......human.

Again, your system has a place in the karaoke world. It will make money. You will be successful. It is a great idea for "swing by and empty the money box" income. But it simply cannot replicate the human host experience.

-Chris

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-Chris