Karaoke Forums

If the venue pays the appropriate ASCAP, BMI, SESAC fees - and you bought your tracks, what's left to license Joe? You gotta be a freakin' lawyer to run a karaoke show?

Nothing else, Joe just doesn't want to believe that it's possible to use a download legally in a show. It's absolutely no different than using a disc!

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Completely wrong, and continuously so, Lon.

It's not about downloads, OC, or disc. ALL karaoke shows exist at the sufferance/apathy of the publisher/owners. NO usage of any sort of media is actually licensed by them for use as a basis of a KJ's karaoke show. That's NO media. BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC license the VENUE to do what they will in regard to audio, but in regard to lyric sweeps there is no license yet available.

What I am pointing out is that while disc based hosts can pass liability back to the producer with ease, and maybe even PC hosts can do the same if they produce the manufacturers' discs that they ripped, download hosts are unable to do the same.

Without detailed receipts from the sites ( such as DT WILL NOT OFFER because they limit their own liability that way) it is extremely difficult to prove tracks have been bought in good faith rather than pirated.

Lon, I truly do not give a fat rat's a$$ what anyone does, but am only offering solid business advice.

As far as downloads go, it probably wouldn't have mattered a short time ago. However, since a certain failed karaoke producer has been making enough legal noise to wake the dead, the publishers/owners may now be awake enough to get involved and cause problems.

Do as you will, but evaluate carefully.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

That's why I prefer their KJ Media Pro service, buy as you go...

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Karaoke that just sounds better!

CompuHost | KJ Media Pro | Karaoke Kiosk | Bose L1 Model II system | B2 bass | ToneMatch audio engine | Shure VHF SM58 wireless mics | Countryman E6 Earset with Shure UHF wireless beltpack

And I will repeat this again... Even tho there are cheaper tracks out there...

And don't forget, there's the Karaokle Cloud for digital Downloads that you own (not lease for a monthly fee) at the cost of $1.99 per track, or their monthly release specials at $14.99 for 10 tracks .

KaraokeCloud does have tracks (at the $1.99 per track) that are not available on All Star (at 45 cents (or less) per track).

Joe - Digitrax is one of MANY download providers. Many of the others DO provide detailed receipts. KJ's have to evaluate their risk for loss and accessibility to detailed purchase information when choosing a download provider.

Karaoke Version provides me with receipt via email, and a PDF invoice available through their site. They also provide me with links to re-download the tracks I bought. And since it is an online purchase I also get a paper trail through PayPal or my bank statements depending on how I finalize the purchase.

Not only does this give me records for tax purposes, and proving purchase to anyone that may inquire, it gives me the option to download the track again in the event I have a catastrophic failure such as theft of a laptop and having no backup. ODB hosts have no such luxury. If your discs get stolen or become otherwise unusable (including your backups), your paper receipt won't play in your disc player.





-Chris

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-Chris

No argument Chris. Karaoke version is willing to do the right thing and limit the KJs' liability- so use 'em. Digitrax is hiding, and I would recommend a pass.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

i don't know how it works in the states, but here in Canada the SOCAN license a venue pays for performance does cover KARAOKE in fact i think you have to pay a little more to cover karaoke, but it is covered.

So any downloads you buy are absolutely no different that purchasing a physical disc

-James

edit:i think several people have called the BMI etc in the US and found out that it covers karaoke, so IF that is true then your theory doesn't hold any water Joe..
Can't be right about EVERYTHING even if it is most things

For $924.95 you can buy CompuHost with 500 Credits. You'll get full access to all those Karaokle Cloud songs at $1.49 each. Over ten shows, if you never repeat a song, but we all know better than that. Add the Gem Series and it's gonna take a long time to go through all those credits.

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Karaoke that just sounds better!

CompuHost | KJ Media Pro | Karaoke Kiosk | Bose L1 Model II system | B2 bass | ToneMatch audio engine | Shure VHF SM58 wireless mics | Countryman E6 Earset with Shure UHF wireless beltpack

Still kinda right, James. BMI, SESAC, ASCAP, etc.. DO have fees for karaoke, and one could hope that this is enough- but the ubiquitous "Gray Area" rears it's head. Those so-called artists' orgs ( ask the artists how THEY feel about that) actually cover the music. The commercial licensing for display of the lyric swipes is what has no licensing.

So far, I figure the publisher/owners haven't cared because of the fees from the music, but thanks to certain folks, they HAVE started to care- witness the "Karaoke No Fly List". Pleas note: There is no such list for DJs ( no lyric sweeps) - it's the karaoke that won't fly. Yes, most DJs play original music /artist, but there is NOTHING that regulates that. They can play any cover they wish- again, no swipes displayed.

Since the publishers/owners are now starting to care ( again, thanks to a company that consistantly shows it's complete lack of interest in the health of karaoke industry), it would seem to be a good business move to limit liability as best as one can.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

"Starting to care" - I don't really understand this. The only "Starting to care" example I know of so far is a "no fly list" that was mentioned at a closed door karaoke summit. A summit that doesn't allow or even encourage the participation of karaoke hosts except to sit home and watch them tell us what they think is going on in the industry and how we are supposed to comply with their directives. Until the Karaoke Summit opens it's doors becoming more transparent and more accessible to karaoke hosts, they will just be a bunch of talking heads telling us what they want us to hear and expecting us to just believe them.

The "no fly list" is a crock. Practically all of the artists on that list have some karaoke music available with more being produced via non-US based karaoke companies. ALL of that karaoke music is completely valid for use in the US. If the artist or the copyright holders really didn't want to have their content made into karaoke, then they would forbid ANYONE from producing it and follow up with action. That isn't happening so "Starting to care" is thus far a rumor.

Karaoke has ~30 years of history behind it with the music publishers letting us do our thing. There are a ton of karaoke places in LA, New York, Nashville - all hot spots for the music industry and exactly where a lot of the copyright holders reside. *IF* the copyright holders were going to raise a stink about what we do, they would have done it a long time ago. That's not to say that they won't ever, but I don't believe "Starting to care" is even real at this point.

I personally believe the "no fly list" is more about money than it is about artists and copyright holders not wanting there to be karaoke tracks made. My guess is that the copyright holders want more money than the karaoke companies are willing to pay (or that would be profitable for them) and so a "no fly list" was conjured up to convince KJ's that the "sleeping giants" are waking up. Proof of that comes from seeing all of the no fly list artists coming from overseas karaoke producers.

-Chris

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-Chris

[quote="chrisavis/]

Still kinda right, James. BMI, SESAC, ASCAP, etc.. DO have fees for karaoke, and one could hope that this is enough- but the ubiquitous "Gray Area" rears it's head. Those so-called artists' orgs ( ask the artists how THEY feel about that) actually cover the music. The commercial licensing for display of the lyric swipes is what has no licensing.

So far, I figure the publisher/owners haven't cared because of the fees from the music, but thanks to certain folks, they HAVE started to care- witness the "Karaoke No Fly List". Pleas note: There is no such list for DJs ( no lyric sweeps) - it's the karaoke that won't fly. Yes, most DJs play original music /artist, but there is NOTHING that regulates that. They can play any cover they wish- again, no swipes displayed.

Since the publishers/owners are now starting to care ( again, thanks to a company that consistantly shows it's complete lack of interest in the health of karaoke industry), it would seem to be a good business move to limit liability as best as one can.[/quote]


"Starting to care" - I don't really understand this. The only "Starting to care" example I know of so far is a "no fly list" that was mentioned at a closed door karaoke summit. AThe "no fly list" is a crock.

Karaoke has ~30 years of history behind it with the music publishers letting us do our thing. -Chris[/quote]

Chris, you may be absolutely correct for all I know. My point is that some publishers/owners ARE becoming aware of the previously ignored- due to such a tiny percentage- karaoke sector.
All I'm saying is that if one can limit their liability NOW, it would be a good time to do so. Full disc collections in use, or full collections in ownership of PC hosts, or itemized receipts from download sites. Doesn't this make sense?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Again....what suggests that they are becoming aware of karaoke any more than the awareness they have had for 30 years? Point us to something that suggests they are waking up?

As for discs and receipts, I know I have both. I have 7000+ discs and I have receipts for every online purchase. I believe most of the "cheerleaders" probably do too. For the shrinking number of ODB hosts that are out there, they have their discs. For the growing number of legal download hosts, they have their receipts.

Given that it is still only 3 karaoke companies that have pursued pirates at any level, the pirates are pretty safe too. I don't like knowing that, but the reality of it is pirates can get away with it because the publishers aren't awake at all and the karaoke companies don't have enough resources.

-Chris

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-Chris

It's the artists\writers that are becoming aware of karaoke, not the labels. Some, like Taylor Swift, see it as an opportunity and some, like those on the no fly list, see it as something bad. Probably some see it as uncontrolled. Some probably see it as their songs getting covered very poorly.

I am aware of Taylor Swift's Red. That was a brilliant move, IMO.

But the No Fly List still seems flaky to me. The source of this list is from the karaoke companies at the Karaoke Summit, that none of us can attend or even ask questions of. Until I see something from the record labels, copyright holders or artists themselves saying they don't allow their content to be made into karaoke (and they obviously don't mind since it is in fact being made into karaoke overseas!) then I feel the No Fly List is again more about money and licensing agreements than it is about just not wanting karaoke to made.

-Chris

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-Chris

Red wasn't the only one, ALL her albums were released as karaoke form direct from record company with her original music.

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I only knew of Red since everyone made such a big deal about it. It's great that she has released all of her content directly to karaoke though. Good for her and the people that manage her!

-Chris

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-Chris

I understand your point, Chris, but how could NOT making karaoke from some artists be to an advantage for the producers? Are you saying the artists are requiring too much for it to be feasible? If so then that would seem more like pay and play at your own risk. We know how Don Henley feels about it and I would imagine there are others that feel the same.

What I am saying is that I believe the "No Fly List" people want more money for karaoke licensing than the karaoke companies are willing to pay. So the karaoke companies are positioning the "No Fly List" as artists who don't want karaoke made at all instead of artists that want more money for licensing than they are willing to pay. Given that overseas companies are making karaoke by the very same artists, that is proof enough that artists aren't flat out blocking it.

I could also be wrong and it is just a matter of different licensing and copyright laws overseas that allow Zoom, Karaoke Version and the others to make the karaoke without the blessing of the "No Fly List" artists.

In the end it makes no difference to me as I am going to buy karaoke music from any legal source that offers it and make it available to my singers if they want it. I would much rather get it from a US based company, but if the US companies aren't making it, then I am going elsewhere.

-Chris

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-Chris

Gotcha. Thanks