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Slips/no slips - that is moot point (doesn't matter). No they get rewarded with a phone call asking you to put them in the rotation, be there right before the time they would be up and walk in the door and sing. That in itself is the reward, they didn't have to come in and wait - even with the 'insert' method, someone walks through the door they wait 20 minutes or 4 songs. I wouldn't expect anyone would worry about their 2nd song as they would then wait like anyone else - just like an insert method. It would make it look like to the avg karaoke gawker that you just played favorites to that person, because the person wasn't in the bar, they walk in & now are singing because they called you an hour earlier. What would stop them from leaving after they sing with a legitimate sounding story - and just hopping to the next bar?

That's fine for everyone IN the bar - they have been there and waiting. I don't see how it's fair someone can call an hour before they are even there - who says they aren't at the bar down the street singing a couple songs, calls you, has you put them in the end of the line, then leaves that bar just in time to get to yours, walks through the doors and bam it's their turn?
Now I can see them calling you, maybe asking to save a spot and once they get there begins their waiting time. I don't know how that is more fair than an insert method.


I agree with consistancy, and your way is fine, just pointing out the major flaw in that one point.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Well sure, why should karaoke be any different in that respect? Why not offer a to sell a fast pass system for your karaoke. $20 for 20 sing next passes or sing within 5 passes. Not even all the rides with fast pass gets you on the very next ride, some make you wait 1 or two.
Some have called it the bank line method, but even that can backfire, how often you standing in line and the manager asks if there are specific transactions, if you have that transaction, you go ahead of everyone else that have been waiting - happens at the post office too. Or someone mentioned the line at the supermarket analogy.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I could see a singer call hosts A,B,C,D, etc and tell them I'll be in at 10, 10:30, 11: 11:30, etc. Almost constant singing with out buying anything to support the venue.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Some KJs just don't like any system that doesn't allow them to tweak the rotation for whatever reason they choose. It takes away some of their "power" if they can't let their friends jump the line with some silly contrived excuse to let some people get special treatment. If I worked on a Friday night and couldn't get to karaoke until it was too late to sing; I would go to karaoke on my nights off. I wouldn't expect any special treatment from the KJ. I wouldn't want any of my KJ friends to catch any (@$%&#!) from the other singers for treating me differently than everybody else.

Well let's just lay the cards out...... I host so I can get free drinks and have hot girlies rub up against me in hopes of singing sooner and more often. Oh, I almost forgot about the awesome 4 figure salary.

But I still run a fair rotation....

-Chris

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-Chris

Well, at least to your definition of Fairness....pretty much like evryone else. There seem to be different degrees of fairness. 90% Fairness just ain't fair at all. If it isn't 100% fair for EVERYBODY; it isn't fair at all and there's only ONE WAY to run a 100% truly fair rotation and most KJ's don't want to do it that way because it removes a little bit of control power away from them. They really don't want to have to follow anyone else's rules. They all want to do it their way. A rotation system that is set in stone makes it impossible for them to cheat a little bit in the best interest of their friends and their tip jar.

I will sing FOR you for $20, but you won't get a better spot in line. I have one guy, at my friend's show that will give me $20 to sing Sweet Child Of Mine for him, whether I am running the show or just hanging out. Hey twenty bucks to sing a five minute song?? HELL YEAH!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Another one who thinks he's a rotation guru. I don't keep a tip jar. I don't treat my friends different than I treat anyone else. Who made you the rotation authority? Or are you just trolling and trying to cause trouble??

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Hmmmm.....if a singer tells me how I should run my rotation, can I tell them how to sing their songs? I mean.....that's fair....right? Or would that be taking too much control from them?

You imply that friends and/or people that put something in the tip jar get some sort of special treatment. Speaking only for myself, my friends go into the rotation exactly the same way everyone else at my show. In fact my friends are the ones are the ones that usually show up early and spend the whole night.

My tip jar has been very happy lately. Thinking about getting a bigger one even. But not once in 3 years of hosting has the tip jar or anything that goes into it influenced a singer's spot in the rotation.

I know you want to believe that I am the worst host ever but.......



-Chris

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-Chris

I had been so busy running my own shows every week that I hadn't been keeping up on what some other kjs in my area were doing. About a month ago, I went to a show with some friends. These 2 girls were running the show. I went up to put in my first song. I asked the ladies, "How many on the list ahead of me?"

The one girl said, "We are pretty busy tonight. About 25 people ahead of you.... but if you give us a substantial tip, like say $20, we can move you up to 3rd in line."

Wow! Are you kidding me? I thought she was playing. I pulled out a $20 and gave it to her and sure enough, she put me 3rd in line. I only had to wait for 2 singers, then I sung.

So yes, I know from first-hand experience that what you are saying is true. Had I not experienced it for myself, I would have never known this was happening.

Btw, I really like this thread.

I love seeing how everyone is defending their way of running a rotation. Just the fact that we have professional KJs in here not being able to agree on what is fair and what is not fair speaks VOLUMES. If we can't agree, how can we reasonably expect regular people, or karaoke singers to agree? We can't. So we shouldn't be surprised if/when we get complaints.

Like I said before. There is no way that will be perceived as being 100% fair to everyone all the time.

Find the way that works best for you, communicate it to everyone, AND STICK WITH IT because in the end, it is YOU that has to intelligently justify it to the complainers.

I really don't care how any of you run your rotations because I will probably never be subjected to it. All I'm saying is that it isn't fair to EVERYONE unless EVERYONE waits the same time as EVERYONE Else. It's quite simple if you open your minds just a teeny weeny bit.

How can something be considered fair when one person waits over an hour to sing and someone else waits 5 or 10 minutes?

How can something be considered fair when at one moment you will be up in 2 songs and because a bunch of new singers show up; you are now 10th in line to sing, as long as no one else shows up before you get to sing?

If there are 15 people in the rotation when any given singer finishes singing a song; that person should know that they will be singing again in 15 songs. It's not about being a guru. It's about being able to count. This lesson has been brought to you by the number 5. Sorry if it's over anyone's head.

See that would never happen at my show, I show the next three singers on the screen. That will NEVER change. If you are on the screen you sing. After that, new singers get intermixed, there will never be a deluge of new singers in a row. and depending on what time they come in (1 at 10:15, 1 at 10:30, 1 at 10:40, etc) they won't all get grouped together, they will be sparsed out according to when they came in - usually about 20 minutes minimum.

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Bruce you want a perfect rotation system in an imperfect world. That is like trying to get perfect justice which you and I know doesn't exist. Everything is for sale in this country even justice since like it has been pointed out "we have the best legal system money can buy". If you can hire the best attorney you will come a lot closer to getting justice, sort of but is it real justice? What is just to someone might not be just to another. All the hosts are just people like you they put their pants on one leg at a time. In order to do anything meaningful in this world you have to adapt and be pragmatic. You have to do what works in your particular situation. I think it has been demonstrated on this thread that the host has to come up with the best rotation system to meet their particular show's needs. There would be no show if the host isn't able to come to grips with the problem of what type of rotation will best work for him and his patrons. Taking into consideration whatever special aspects are involved with the venue and the gig. Yes there are hosts that take bribes, hope they can use the gig as a dating service, are drunks that will sell the integrity of the show for a drink, both legal and illegal. There are also hosts with integrity that can't be bought at any price. That is not to say host's aren't put under pressure from venue owners to push the manger's friends, girlfriend's. boyfriends, and relatives, ahead in the line. If you want to keep the gig and stay in business you have to play ball, or they will find a host that will. Until you work both sides of the machine Bruce you can't appreciate how difficult it is to host and still do what is right 100% of the time. I use the strict rotation system because it is what it is, all names are placed on the board and no one gets boosted ahead. It is not a perfect rotation system but it's simple and direct, and no one can buy or pressure their self ahead. With just a couple of months left it is the system I'm going out on. It's too late to change now.

That's another way to piss off customers... KJ's accepting bribes or favors in lieu of consistency...

Any of these methods, as long as they are consistent, will work obviously. Some patrons will approve and some might disapprove in each scenario. When other variables come in to play like preferential treatment of "friends", bribes, favors, drunk hosts, etc... that affects the consistency and will definitely alienate more people. You may not hear it directly, but your patrons will be talking about it amongst themselves.

We are all free to choose how we run our shows, and choose the best format for our crowds. One size does not fit all

Whenever a host starts talking about "variety"... consider that the patron who only sings the same song week after week might actually be having fun singing that same song, and since that is what it is supposed to be about, FUN, then why discourage that? Perhaps they don't want to expand their horizons, but they are still entitled to have fun. If people leave because someone sings the same song they sang last week... then you're probably better off without someone so uptight.

Like Lonnie said, neither of these things happen. You are making assumptions and you are assuming incorrectly.

Like Lonnie, I display the next 4 singers on screen. I start placing new singers at position 7 after the person on stage. Thus new singer will never get up on stage 5 mins after the walk in the door unless. Likewise, it would never bump someone who is 2 away to 10 away.

If this system sucked so bad, I am sure Lonnie's show would have died well before the 2 decade mark.
If this system sucked so bad I wouldn't be successful at my shows.

If you want the system you are suggesting, the Hula Hula Club in Seattle runs exactly that. You get placed on the list at the last position. If the current list is 30 people, you are person number 31. You can sign up, come back 1.5 - 2 hours and sing. A lot of people do exactly that too. They sign up to sing, ask how many away they are, multiple that by 3 minutes and then go get a pizza and cheap beer across the street.

The overall system works for them though. They run 7 nights a week and have for years. But their reputation means that people know that if they show up at 10:30 it will be midnight at the earliest before they sing.

-Chris

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-Chris

There is also the thing that is never considered here. Let's say you have a 20 person rotation. Now you get one of those people who is drinking pretty well, and hasn't put up a song after their last one. So what do you do? I go out there and ask if they want to do another song. If they do, they bring another slip, if not they don't they get skipped. If they come at you bitching because of it, it's not your fault.

One of my other favorites is the odd person who puts up a song, then leaves for the night without saying anything., Now you have this dead spot while you are waiting for them to come up and sing.

Then there is, "Oh can I go soon, I have to leave". Sorry, but NO you can't. Then they get all pissy. Oh well. In THAT person's mind, you just treated them unfairly.

I will admit to one way that I WILL tweak the rotation. If I end up with three or four bad singers in a row, I WILL break them up a bit. I do that for the patrons, so they aren't bombarded for 15-20 with nothing but noise. It doesn't mean anyone sings more or less, it just changes the line-up a bit.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

So Bruce, oh great Gazoo tell all of us poor hosts how you would run your rotation when you have say 20-50 singers coming and going throughout the night and make it fair in your opinion and keep everyone happy. We will all be waiting with bated breath.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

When I see someone on the list that has not provided a song, I try to call them up to give me a song a few songs before their turn. If they give me one, they sing, if they don't, they get skipped.

-Chris

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-Chris

Ok here are the rules....... there are no rules, and you run your karaoke and rotation any way you want. If you keep filling the joint, you're doing something right, and if the crowd is getting kinda small, it's time to re-think your rules.
If you're a singer, and you don't like the way the KJ runs things, and you can get enough people in the joint to rebel, then go ahead, try and change things. I'd suggest you go elsewhere, and find a set of rules to your liking. The only rules are in all of our heads, and that's the only place, where they can be enforced.