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So the guy who handed you a slip buys drinks for 45 minutes to subsidize the other guy's ability to make a phone call and then walk in and sing.

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Most singers who've been around a while do notice this kind of stuff.
They pay attention to the rotation and know how long they have to wait compared to the other singers. It's frustrating to those singers who've been waiting to see someone walk into the bar and get up to sing within minutes when they've been waiting much longer. They don't know or even care about the "behind the scenes" mechanism that allows such occurrences, they only know they have been cheated.
This builds a "behind the scenes" animosity toward the KJ, the bar, and the other singers when it starts to look like common practice. Every good customer in the bar will be aware of the unfair practices long before word of dissatisfaction reaches the KJ or bar owner.

Every singer loves to get bumped up in the rotation,
No singer wants to be bumped down in the rotation,
Every singer knows when they've been skipped altogether in the rotation,
And by the end of their night, most singers know how many new singers it took to knock them completely out of the last rotation.

Karaoke breeds it's own brand of drama fueled by the egos of would be (or should be) stars.
The appearance of fairness is far more important than fairness itself.

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KNOW THYSELF

And that's why I've said, it doesn't matter how you do it so long as it is consistent. My partner has been doing it the same way for over 20 years so the regulars know how it goes and others will either like it or not (you can't please everybody) and either stay or go. Like the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

If I was number 16 I would rather have one singer added at the end and that was that, than to have the host sprinkle in 5 or 6 new singers before I sing again. One way you add on a 3to 5 min wait depending on the length of the song the other way it could add nearly a half and hour to your next turn. No system is perfect, some are just less imperfect than others. Sort of what Churchill said about democracy "It is the worst form of government except for all the rest".

This is silly illogical logic.
If there was only one to add to the end of your rotation there would not be five or six to sprinkle in.
If there were five or six to sprinkle in, there would be five or six to add to the end of your mystical rotation.

A rotation "marker" is a system for those who can't follow the fair concept of a dynamic rotation in which the current singer is the "marker" (beginning of the rotation).

When a new singer is added to the rotation behind the current singer, that new singer will not have to listen to the current singer again until after the new singer sings. And the new singer will not have to wait any longer than anyone else to sing.

The only fair reason to bump the new singer up in the rotation is if that new singer had already been there for awhile buying drinks and scouring a book to choose a song.

If the new singer just walked in the door, there is no good reason to give them an unfair rotation advantage over those who have been there paying and waiting.

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KNOW THYSELF

Right I think we just figured out - NO system is fair, even the amusement park line method (even though technically fair) has it's flaws. You are either going to piss off those that have been there all night with people working in (which I've never personally experienced) or you will piss off the new people that have to work late and cannot come in for the fun because they have to wait so long that they may not even get a chance to sing one. Or putting everyone at the end you piss off everyone that has been there from the start waiting for all the new singers in a row at the end.
Bottom line - consistency & make it known how you do your rotation to the crowds and you will get those singers that prefer mine, yours, their methods. No one way is right, only what is right for you and your crowds!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Chris,

Like I said, you are lucky. There are a lot of variables that factor in to whether or not a show is successful. We've debated them: traffic (which you have an abundance of), staff, venue, drink prices, drink quality, host, proximity of other shows on that night, other shows that occurred the night before, maybe pool tables? Keno? The list goes on....

All I am saying is that if you have an overabundance of some of the key factors, you can get away with slacking in other areas and it won't affect business.

I'm the "overabundance" at my show. I know how that sounds, but I do my shows at a bar that is well known for having 1) the weakest drinks in the entire county, 2) The most expensive drinks for a bar in my county, 3) having food that sucks (even for bar food), 4) A bartender that will steal from you, 5) Lousy service. 6) No table service, and 7) No credit/Debit card policy (use the bar-owned ATM!).

With a karaoke show right across the street, why then do people go there?

Because I run a fair rotation (CURRENTLY WITH NEW SINGER PRIORITY) and I have been told over and over that "(I) have the best karaoke sound (they) have ever heard".

And, believe it or not, I know how to turn on the charm.

All of this, plus I CANNOT sing. So therefore, I do not sing (unless "forced" to).

Now, I don't get a TON of people (by any stretch of the imagination), but we do very well over the long run. Why? Because we have an overabundance of sound and an overabundance of fairness.

All I am saying is that when you have an overabundance of key factors, you can get by with not having some of the less important factors. Your show doesn't work because of your rotation style, it works despite it.

...and you can get away with that with all of the traffic you have.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

It's like waiting in line at the check-out counter in front of someone with a huge basket of groceries. A new counter opens and everyone from the end of the line behind me rushes over to the new counter and I'm still stuck in the slow line behind that guy with the huge basket of groceries. All I can do is stand there and watch all the new people make it through the other line while I'm still waiting.

Life isn't fair, and I still need my groceries.

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KNOW THYSELF

I was talking about a comparison of the two systems strict rotation v.s. some sort of insertion method. I still feel strict rotation is a fairer system if for no other reason the person at the end will not get another turn before you sing your second song. I didn't say strict rotation was perfect it is just the least imperfect as far as the way I see it and I have been on both sides of the of the street. Also it is the easiest to keep track of and avoid the host skipping someone entirely, with a more complicated system of insertion.

I (and several) said early on that no system is fair all the time. I used a dual entry point system with me being the middle marker. The other marker was the bottom. This slid me down the list when new people came in after the rotation turned over. But everyone knew who they were singing after and that did not change unless someone left. I was the only one that didn't sing after they same person every time but I knew it. If I got too many and backed out of the rotation, I would let the person singing in my spot that they were the new middle Was this fair all the way around, no way.. But it worked for me.

And as for the #17 singer scenario, if that singer comes in 3 minutes later instead of two, they wait longer than anyone. EVERY system is flawed several times over.

Because that is what you prefer and works at your shows. Insert is what I prefer and works at my shows. Amusement line may be anothers preference and works at their show. Again - no right way, no wrong way, just keep it consistent and the crowd will choose according to their personal tastes as to what they like - insert method is my preferred choice as a singer which is why I made it my preferred method as a kj.

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The person coming in late should wait, the patrons who have been supporting the venue through your hosting night should have priority. The whole purpose of any system should be to reward the core singers that support the venue and your show. Not the drive by singers looking to sing one song and duck out.

It is quite plain Lonman that we are playing to two different types of patrons. Yours from what I gather are younger and stay out later. Mine are older and come early and go home early. To the effect that really it is possible to have two waves of singers. An early group and then a later group this is especially true on weekend nights where people stay out later. Not so much during the week where people have to go to work the next day. The older singers start early say 4 or 5 and are all gone by 9 during the weekdays.

This is what can happen in the new singer priority situation or adding all new singers to the end of the rotation.

There are 15 singers in the rotation and singer #14 is singing his song. You are singer #1 and you are looking up at the sign in Board and you see that you will be singing after just one more song. Before singer #15 finishes singing his song; a large group of singers show up and they are added to the current rotation because they just happened to get there at the most advantageous time. Singers #1 to 14, who have already waited up to an hour to sing again, now have to wait an additional 40 minutes to sing than they shouldn't have to. All of these new singers should sing AFTER singer #14 in the next rotation. Why should singer #16 wait 2 minutes while singer #1 has to wait100 minutes? At the end of the night, those NEW SINGERS will be in front of all of the early bird singers and will get whatever few spots are left in the rotation.

Then those are the shows that you would need to seek out. Those are the shows i'd personally avoid if it was based strictly on a rotation issue.

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Around here, the alcohol laws recently changed and hours were extended from one o'clock to two o'clock. Many places added the extra hour to their schedule, but many only added it for weekends.

Now what happens is the place that stays open later gets a flood of new singers (somewhat drunk and rowdy singers) just before one o'clock because the bar they chose to spend their money at all night closed before they were done partying.

When they get injected into the rotation out of policy, the singers who chose to spend their money at the same place all night get bumped from their last songs to make room for the new singers who spent their money somewhere else until last call.

The thought process behind bumping these people up in the rotation was that it would capture a new regular customer.
It hasn't worked out that way for most. Most of these late comers are loyal to the venue and KJ they came from and only show up because it's an extra hour of drinking. All it has done is alienate the regulars who are getting shown that they aren't as important as someone new who wouldn't have chosen to sing there to begin with.
Ironically, those new comers would show up anyway even if they knew they would be on the end of the line because they just want to drink for another hour. It's only causing the regulars who would have bought another drink to leave earlier because they know they won't get to sing to the new crowd.

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KNOW THYSELF

If a kj is watching the time and how many songs they have and close taking slips because it takes you to the end of the night with the people that are already there, then someone walking in within the last hour chances are will not be singing anyway leaving the last spots to those who were there all night.
If you get a kj who takes slips til the end of the night, fitting those new singers in, at the same letting people THINK they might get up again, then that is a bad situation as well.
As far as new regulars, I find quite the opposite and have gained alot of new singers/regulars because the fact they might get a chance to sing over some other places that make them wait however long. Again, most of our late comers aren't coming from other bars (sure it does happen), most of our late comers are getting off work and want to join in on the fun and singing with the rest of their friends. They should be aced out just because they work and cannot get there earlier? No. Once they sing their first song, they wait however long anyone else has to at that point.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have been hosting 19 years and have never had a situation like you describe happen. The singers never come in one massive wave like a tidal wave. Rather they drift in in small groups or individually. Even if a large group comes in many don't sing they listen to their friends or are more interested in food and drink. It has never happened where a 100 minutes would be added on to the end that would require 30 singers coming in at once.
The way I work the show is judging by the number of singers I have left and the time to stop I always announce the last round for karaoke. Once that starts no new people are put on and we continue until the list is exhausted, and close out the night.

By the way...... I am not asking anyone to change their rotation style. Likewise, don't expect me to change mine.

-Chris

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-Chris

Nobody has ever questioned it. And I don't use song slips. And it is fair to everyone. It's the same as you allowing new singers to sing in front of me only there is a legitimate excuse and it's not a hopper. My way eliminates hoppers from coming in, buying one beer, and off they go to someone else who allows new singers to cut in. Someone said there is going to always be hoppers. Well they do NOT get rewarded with my "end of the line" method.

It's just a matter of how they give me a request. Whether it's a song slip, or electronic from a kiosk, or a smart phone request sent electronically to me thru compuhost or if they call me. Doesn't matter. If they request their first song by any of those methods at the same point in time, it will get them up to sing at the same point in time but,,,, regardless they STILL GO TO THE END OF THE LINE at the time of their first request. To each their own, but that is the only method I consider fair. It's fair because it's available to everyone.

And if you have someone that watches the rotation like a hawk, they are going to question my method OR your method and I'm sure you would do the same thing as me,,,,,, explain your methodology to them and tell them this is how you always run your show, you don't do it differently for different people. As said a number of times, its being consistent, not changing the methods from show to show or person to person.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I like the amusement park analogy......many KJs offer a fast-pass for twenty bucks.....