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Cueball
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:32 pm |
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Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2001 6:55 pm Posts: 4433 Location: New York City Been Liked: 757 times
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Chris, I am going with the general consensus here as well. Not only did you purchase all your SC CDGs, but you also paid for certification by SC. You have admittedly stated that you have informed SC of when you have gone over their 2% allowance of additions to your library, and they have not requested you get re-audited (yet).
Why cut off your nose to spite your face? Continue using the product you already paid for. If SC ever approaches you again for further dealings, then make your decision. Until then, enjoy what you have to the max.
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:59 pm |
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:55 am Posts: 3885 Images: 0 Been Liked: 397 times
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Chris, you DO have a lot invested in SC. It would be more logical for me, since I only have 38 discs from them, to drop them totally. BUT, if I were a patron of your show, I would continue to support you.
_________________ I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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JoeChartreuse
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:42 pm |
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:12 pm Posts: 5046 Been Liked: 334 times
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Wow, Chris, you caught me off guard with your OP, as I never knew you felt that way. OK, I might surprise you a little bit. Though SC did a terrific job marketing their brand, it never really caught in my area- was never the "goto" brand- and we have a HUGE brand-aware customer base here in the NY-NJ-CT tri-state area, as well as being densely populated.. Also, though always a good brand ( in most, but not all) cases), it was never the most popular in my area. Not having SC would only knock around 5-6 songs out of my repertoire (sp?), so supporting your show would be no problem for me ( as long as the mfrs. were listed in your books ). Now comes the surprise: All that being said, it would seem that you may be considering dropping SC as a form of protest instead of the protection of your business. A) I agree with those that state that since you have a sizeable investment in your SC, you would only be shooting yourself in the foot. Keep in mind that as vocal as I am in regard to SC's icky methodology, what few SC discs I own are still being used in my show ( except in the venues that no longer allow it)- I paid for them. B) SC doesn't give a fat rat's fart what you do- they already have your money. Since they've been out of new production for some years, they are also ( and they show it quite often) completely uninterested in maintaining or expanding what was their customer base. They have no reason to care if KJs decide to blow them off for their actions. If they did, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing- whatever that's supposed to be these days. Of course, if you were wanting to drop them for protection against problems and SC noise ( which you aren't), I'd say drop them like a hot potato. It also goes without saying that I would advise new hosts not to bother with them at all. Bottom line: Use what you have, but don't buy any MORE from them. It's NEW income that they will miss, not that which they have already received.
_________________ "No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"
" Disc based and loving it..."
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Bazza
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:07 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:00 am Posts: 3312 Images: 0 Been Liked: 610 times
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JoeChartreuse wrote: Though SC did a terrific job marketing their brand, it never really caught in my area- was never the "goto" brand- and we have a HUGE brand-aware customer base here in the NY-NJ-CT tri-state area, as well as being densely populated.. I disagree. I heavily work the tri-state area as well and can count on one hand the time someone has requested ANY manufacture, SC or otherwise. I don't choose SC as my primary selection because people ask for it...I play SC because IN MY OPINION they have the highest quality reproductions of my base library. And I want that quality. Are there others? Sure. Some prefer Coke, I prefer Pepsi.
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rickgood
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:27 am |
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:09 pm Posts: 839 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Been Liked: 224 times
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Maybe the same reason you'd leave a cheat in' spouse, sometimes it's the principle of the thing, not financial.
Chris, you can always just stop using the SC version and see what happens.
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The Lone Ranger
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:52 am |
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:22 am Posts: 6103 Been Liked: 634 times
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rickgood wrote: Maybe the same reason you'd leave a cheat in' spouse, sometimes it's the principle of the thing, not financial.
Chris, you can always just stop using the SC version and see what happens. I have not used the SC product since 2009, and have been boycotting them up to the present. With less than 90 days left professionally hosting I see little reason to change things now. It has not effected by business and until recently I was working 6 days a week. So yes you can leave SC behind and all the bad vibes that go with their legal process. The core of my library has always been DK and is the only brand I have ever had requested by name.
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chrisavis
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:59 am |
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:38 pm Posts: 6086 Images: 1 Location: Redmond, WA Been Liked: 1665 times
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This is all great feedback. Also, surprisingly civil. Kudos to all.
I only have a handful of public comments on my Facebook post, but a very large number of PM's asking me for a deeper explanation. Mostly from singers asking a variety of questions about what is going on. Most have no clue of Sound Choice activities in the area (and no reason they should know). The few that are aware of it don't care because they know that virtually every KJ Sound Choice has sued in the Seattle are is still working although maybe for a different club. Even those that Sound Choice never caught up with.
I have had a few KJ's offer to buy my Sound Choice libraries. Some of them I know to be pirates (or I have strong suspicions of or people have told me "I know for sure XXXXX is a pirate)
One KJ outfit that I am very friendly with asked me specifically if I was having issues with GEM licensing (which I am not).
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Joe - Yes.....mostly in protest, which in reality is pretty silly because, as some have pointed out, it won't make a bit of difference to Sound Choice.
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To date, it seems that Sound Choice has ignored the legitimate host. On the surface, their messaging is "we are helping legitimate hosts by suing pirates and venues". Taken at face value, many will see that as a positive thing. When one digs deeper we find what is actually happening is they are getting pirates to legalize only the Sound Choice part of their libraries and perhaps making them pay a "fine" and then receive a GEM set. The remainder of their library is still pirated and they have no real enforcement mechanism (yet) to ensure they aren't still pirating other brands. Sound Choice says that as part of the settlement, the KJ's have to delete all pirated material, yet in practice, they still pirate other brands. Also, as we all know, they also get a GEM set containing great music, ripped at great quality, and most importantly, they get to keep their gigs.
Sound Choice claims they are creating customers out of pirates.
In fact what they are doing is financing the sale of a GEM series to a pirate. That isn't a customer, that is someone that was compelled to take out a loan to save their business.
Additionally, I would be very interested in seeing numbers on how many of these new "customers" buy any additional content from Sound Choice or an authorized distributor. I have no proof, but I am guessing few to none of those that have settled are jumping to buy even more product from Sound Choice. They have a GEM. What other Sound Choice content do they need? All the while, legitimate hosts struggle against these very pirates to maintain their existing gigs and now have one more roadblock blocking them from taking gigs from the pirates.
Sound Choice has also stated publicly that piracy contributes to the saturation of karaoke shows, which we all know impacts the ability of hosts to find gigs, and promotes undercutting. Yet Sound Choice actions actually contribute to this problem.
It is in Sound Choice best interest to ensure the former Sound Choice pirates stay employed to make sure they can make their loan payments.
The loans these pirates have to take out put financial pressure on them that results in them being even more aggressive in finding gigs to ensure they don't default as they will suffer more than just a ding on a credit report - they risk losing their entire business. They probably won't be able to raise rates at existing venues with any ease, so if they are feeling financial pressure to pay off that loan, they will go in search of new gigs.
This puts pressure on and contributes to squeezing out the loyal, legitimate operators.
I personally know two KJ's here in Seattle that were sued, settled, received their GEM's, then aggressively pursued other gigs because they now had an additional financial obligation to maintain. One inadvertently competed against me for a gig until they found out it was me. The other went from 2 to 5 nights a week and is now down to 4 nights. These are perfect examples of the unintended consequences of Sound Choice activities.
On the plus side, I happen to be good friends with both of these former pirates. Both have completely cleaned up their libraries. Great hosts, great people, great karaoke shows, they are tough competition. But we talk to each other when we are looking for gigs to ensure we don't step on toes. I don't think many others have that luxury.
Keep in mind that while pirates are thieves, that doesn't mean they aren't great entertainers and great karaoke hosts.
Taking a gig from a pirate basically means proving you are going to bring in in more net revenue for the venue than that pirate. If the pirate is a great host with a great following, and may be working for less money per show because they had no overhead, that is hard sell. Even if their rate is the same as yours, convincing the venue that they will make more money is a hard sell. In the situations where a pirate gets sued and ends up with a great, (at least partially) legal library......well......Sound Choice just made it harder for truly loyal, legitimate hosts to take those gigs. More unintended consequences.
Now.....before Athena or other long term KJ jumps in and says "it's a journey, not a day trip" - I get that. I know it takes time and persistence. I also recognize that for every Athena that has 20 years of reputation they can leverage, there are many more people like me that have been at it for a fraction of that time. You have some tools at your disposal that I won't have for another 17 years. It isn't a fair comparison. Sound Choice also seems to be paying more attention to your part of the U.S. than any other. You are getting regular air cover where the rest of us are getting drive-bys. If Sound Choice wants to have any lasting impact they have to show themselves more than once every 2-3 years. Sound Choice doesn't scare anyone here.
To wrap this all up......
Sound Choice has some vocal, passionate people on their side. These "evangelists" are a buffer between Sound Choice and the angry masses. They are also a valuable asset in spreading the positive aspects of Sound Choice actions. They need these influencers help to spread the word so Sound Choice can continue to make head way in the areas they are paying attention to. Losing even one of those sets Sound Choice back. Particularly in geographies where they have thus far only performed drive-by's.
I happen to be the only vocal proponent of Sound Choice in the Seattle area. Thus far I have defended and supported Sound Choice mostly because I support their right to pursue the bad guys. I have been hopeful that they would take some action based on the feedback they have received to do more to directly help legitimate KJ's and their true, willing customers instead of focusing only on generating false customers and debtors.
The long and short of this is that Sound Choice is at risk of alienating people that would otherwise be advocates and evangelists on their behalf. Having people like me evangelizing FOR Sound Choice is infinitely better than having me AGAINST Sound Choice.
Plenty of great companies, with great products and services have disappeared when said companies don't treat their loyal customers with dignity and respect. Netflix almost became one of those companies. But they listened to their customers.
Sound Choice is seemingly hanging on by a thread compared to their glory days. Listen to what your REAL CUSTOMERS are saying.
-Chris
_________________ -Chris
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Cueball
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:26 am |
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Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2001 6:55 pm Posts: 4433 Location: New York City Been Liked: 757 times
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chrisavis wrote: When one digs deeper we find what is actually happening is they are getting pirates to legalize only the Sound Choice part of their libraries and perhaps making them pay a "fine" and then receive a GEM set. The remainder of their library is still pirated and they have no real enforcement mechanism (yet) to ensure they aren't still pirating other brands. Sound Choice says that as part of the settlement, the KJ's have to delete all pirated material, yet in practice, they still pirate other brands. I would like to rant/add (and I have said this several times before) the following: SC (or at least James Harrington) has stated that they have changed their plan of attack to include a Judge's order to have the KJ (once found guilty of piracy... not to be confused with just a Trademark Infringer) turn over his/her HD so that ALL (not just SC) content that was not legally purchased can be destroyed. Now, I don't give a Rat's A$$ what any one of you here has to say regarding that if it is ordered by a Judge, then the KJ must comply or suffer more severe consequences. I WANT TO SEE THE PROOF that this has been done!!! Don't tell me... SHOW ME!!!! If it's being done, then it sure as heck must be top secret. I'm sure if your local pirate KJ competitor suddenly had to destroy his entire HD of all pirated material, and just use legally obtained song tracks, you sure as heck would have heard about it. And the word would spread quickly too. OK... Rant over.
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:44 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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See i've always gathered and seem to remember them flat out saying at times when this all started, they were going to recoup monies lost to piracy. Which pretty much implied suits and sales of legit product after infringers are nailed. The only piracy help it may do is put some out of business who couldn't afford the settlements. But if the pirates do in fact have to destroy their hard drives through court order and not use them anymore, then the upside is being on a more level playing field with other kj's and in some cases being put in a worse level than other kj's. But like Cue, i'd like to see proof of that as well.
_________________ LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:46 am |
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:55 am Posts: 3885 Images: 0 Been Liked: 397 times
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cueball wrote: chrisavis wrote: When one digs deeper we find what is actually happening is they are getting pirates to legalize only the Sound Choice part of their libraries and perhaps making them pay a "fine" and then receive a GEM set. The remainder of their library is still pirated and they have no real enforcement mechanism (yet) to ensure they aren't still pirating other brands. Sound Choice says that as part of the settlement, the KJ's have to delete all pirated material, yet in practice, they still pirate other brands. I would like to rant/add (and I have said this several times before) the following: SC (or at least James Harrington) has stated that they have changed their plan of attack to include a Judge's order to have the KJ (once found guilty of piracy... not to be confused with just a Trademark Infringer) turn over his/her HD so that ALL (not just SC) content that was not legally purchased can be destroyed. Now, I don't give a Rat's A$$ what any one of you here has to say regarding that if it is ordered by a Judge, then the KJ must comply or suffer more severe consequences. I WANT TO SEE THE PROOF that this has been done!!! Don't tell me... SHOW ME!!!! If it's being done, then it sure as heck must be top secret. I'm sure if your local pirate KJ competitor suddenly had to destroy his entire HD of all pirated material, and just use legally obtained song tracks, you sure as heck would have heard about it. And the word would spread quickly too. OK... Rant over. Not to mention, how many copies of that same hard drive would that pirate have hidden at home. Sound Choice has no legal right to search homes for other hard drives. Then after the initial lawsuit, as long as that pirate is using legal Sound Choice music, Sound Choice has no recourse to re-sue that KJ, no matter what else he is using. Isn't that true??
_________________ I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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kjathena
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:53 am |
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:51 pm Posts: 1636 Been Liked: 73 times
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"Sound Choice has no legal right to search homes for other hard drives" no but Federal Marshall's do......just sayin' Will search the cases to find PROOF in the form of legal documentation from a local that was forced to turn over all drives and then tried to file to have the case overturned because she "didnt understand she couldnt use any brands without written authorization" and post links here it HAS happened at least here
_________________ "Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain." Unknown "if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters." Lee McGuffey
Last edited by kjathena on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chrisavis
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:22 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:38 pm Posts: 6086 Images: 1 Location: Redmond, WA Been Liked: 1665 times
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cueball wrote: chrisavis wrote: When one digs deeper we find what is actually happening is they are getting pirates to legalize only the Sound Choice part of their libraries and perhaps making them pay a "fine" and then receive a GEM set. The remainder of their library is still pirated and they have no real enforcement mechanism (yet) to ensure they aren't still pirating other brands. Sound Choice says that as part of the settlement, the KJ's have to delete all pirated material, yet in practice, they still pirate other brands. I would like to rant/add (and I have said this several times before) the following: SC (or at least James Harrington) has stated that they have changed their plan of attack to include a Judge's order to have the KJ (once found guilty of piracy... not to be confused with just a Trademark Infringer) turn over his/her HD so that ALL (not just SC) content that was not legally purchased can be destroyed. Now, I don't give a Rat's A$$ what any one of you here has to say regarding that if it is ordered by a Judge, then the KJ must comply or suffer more severe consequences. I WANT TO SEE THE PROOF that this has been done!!! Don't tell me... SHOW ME!!!! If it's being done, then it sure as heck must be top secret. I'm sure if your local pirate KJ competitor suddenly had to destroy his entire HD of all pirated material, and just use legally obtained song tracks, you sure as heck would have heard about it. And the word would spread quickly too. OK... Rant over. It is simple enough to turn over all hard drives, then buy another $200 Drive and download from Torrent/iRC or buy a loaded drive for a little more. Turning over drives is symbolic only. -Chris
_________________ -Chris
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:34 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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Unless the courts get them to agree not to and heftier penalties or even jail time for defying that order. Doubt that is being done, but it should!
_________________ LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:37 pm |
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:55 am Posts: 3885 Images: 0 Been Liked: 397 times
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kjathena wrote: "Sound Choice has no legal right to search homes for other hard drives" no but Federal Marshall's do......just sayin'
LMFAO!!!!! You're out of your mind!! You HONESTLY think the Federal Marshall service would consider KARAOKE important enough to get involved?? REALLY?? PLEASE!!
_________________ I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:40 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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I a case like that a few years back. However I think it was for selling loaded hard drives.
_________________ LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
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TroyVnd27
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:55 pm |
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:10 pm Posts: 933 Location: Twin Lake, MI Been Liked: 59 times
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Smoothedge69 wrote: kjathena wrote: "Sound Choice has no legal right to search homes for other hard drives" no but Federal Marshall's do......just sayin'
LMFAO!!!!! You're out of your mind!! You HONESTLY think the Federal Marshall service would consider KARAOKE important enough to get involved?? REALLY?? PLEASE!! I fully agree that Federal Marshalls would get involved unless it was something much more than a local pirate with some illegally obtained music. The fight against piracy is a joke. Unless they actually wise up and start watermarking CDGs, then this will continue forever. This is something that might not be done easily for the CDs, but it could EASILY be done for downloads. In fact, I contend that while the music publishers seem to resist the idea of karaoke downloads, I believe it is in their best interest because of the watermarking that could be done on a CDG file. And not even just watermarking - they could put the license holder's name right on the title screen and closing credits. As long as it was random, no software could defeat it, rendering the karaoke file almost useless to any other commerical KJ (unless they were REAL stupid).
_________________ I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!
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Cueball
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:25 pm |
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Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2001 6:55 pm Posts: 4433 Location: New York City Been Liked: 757 times
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kjathena wrote: "Sound Choice has no legal right to search homes for other hard drives," but Federal Marshall's do......just sayin' Yeah??? And where are they??? Just sayin'... kjathena wrote: Will search the cases to find PROOF in the form of legal documentation from a local that was forced to turn over all drives and then tried to file to have the case overturned because she "didn't understand she couldn't use any brands without written authorization" and post links here it HAS happened at least here The legal documentation that says a Judge ordered it to be so is NOT the PROOF I am asking for. That kind of proof is meaningless. I want to hear from the KJ himself/herself! Let the KJ who actually suffered the consequences of his/her actions state it to the general public (right here). From what I am interpreting from your post, I believe that you (KJAthena) are referring to someone who didn't have a clue, and was not a blatant pirate, albeit, she was a pirate. There's still a lot of truth left to what Smoothedge69 and Chris Avis just said... Smoothedge69 wrote: Not to mention, how many copies of that same hard drive would that pirate have hidden at home. chrisavis wrote: It is simple enough to turn over all hard drives, then buy another $200 Drive and download from Torrent/iRC or buy a loaded drive for a little more.
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:19 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:24 pm Posts: 5107 Location: Phoenix Az Been Liked: 1279 times
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cueball wrote: kjathena wrote: Will search the cases to find PROOF in the form of legal documentation from a local that was forced to turn over all drives and then tried to file to have the case overturned because she "didn't understand she couldn't use any brands without written authorization" and post links here it HAS happened at least here The legal documentation that says a Judge ordered it to be so is NOT the PROOF I am asking for. That kind of proof is meaningless. I want to hear from the KJ himself/herself! Let the KJ who actually suffered the consequences of his/her actions state it to the general public (right here). i agree, but every time that is asked it is kept secret. can't talk about it. From what I am interpreting from your post, I believe that you (KJAthena) are referring to someone who didn't have a clue, and was not a blatant pirate, albeit, she was a pirate. There's still a lot of truth left to what Smoothedge69 and Chris Avis just said... Smoothedge69 wrote: Not to mention, how many copies of that same hard drive would that pirate have hidden at home. chrisavis wrote: It is simple enough to turn over all hard drives, then buy another $200 Drive and download from Torrent/iRC or buy a loaded drive for a little more. [/quote] there was a case but as was said before that was for a drive seller, not just a host.
_________________ Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens
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rickgood
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:28 pm |
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 7:09 pm Posts: 839 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Been Liked: 224 times
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Mercy, are the tables finally turning here for some folks? watch out, you may be called ignorant if you keep pointing out that the emperor has no clothes on....
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