Karaoke Forums

from what I understand PR was formed by a group of original investors of CB...and those investors can show irrepairable grievous harm with little difficulty.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

and if he is actually 1:1 as he claims, how much has that cost them?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Or to word a little differently... What exactly is the "irreparable grievous harm" that they can show "with little difficulty" if this KJ is 1:1?

Athena, you rock- because you don't think before you post....

1) It's not a matter of whether SC has to allow the media shift of a track- BECAUSE THEY CAN'T- they don't OWN THE MUSIC- ASK THEM. They can only be paid off to turn a blind eye( Bribed off not to tell the publisher/owners, though they claim wrondoing- in other words paid not to report what they consider a crime- classy).

2) Once a suit is filed it is public information, and automatically damages the KJ's rep, and earning ability. The publication of the suit on publicly accessible sites is enough for a solid suit.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Another problem I see is if you know an illegal act has been performed and you don't report it doesn't that under the law make you an accessory after the fact? That taking a bribe to remain silent would only compound the offense? Good Morning Joe.

To answer your question cue if you are not 1:1 compliant the damage according to the court is the fair retail value of the stolen merchandize. That is if the host goes into court and fights the complaint, if they lose by default it could be and has been more expensive. From a cost perspective it would be better to pay the $5,000 and avoid the legal cost if you are illegal like the defendants did in California. If you are legal and you are named in a suit, hopefully you can get the matter resolved before it ever goes to court. The problem is you have already sustained damage to your reputation and possible loss of income. This whole legal process is designed to tie a karaoke service business in court and cost them money. It is used as leverage to get a settlement out of the defendant, or compel them to lease or subscribe to products they would rather not. It is the expense and doubtful out come of these trials that keep the manus using them to set examples, since "suits drive sales", at least according to Kurt. It would be impractical to press these suits in a large enough number to make a real impact, that would increase the chances that the manus would lose in court.

Joe, I have to jump in at this point. The past suit by the manus in my market against the kjs (both dropped from suit and ones that settled) and venues (both dropped and those that eventually settled) have not affected any of the venues still in business (still offering karaoke). I know several of the kjs personally (one that settled and still going strong) so to say it harms their reputations is unfounded at least here. The one thing it did do, caused several bottom feeder kjs to cease their operations hoping to steal away into the night without being sued. But don't take my word for it. Feel free to contact any of the former named and see what they are up to now. Seems all the reputations are still intact to what ever degree they were before (some still bad as before the suit and some as good as before the suit).

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Just what is the amount of damages owed to the original investors of CB? Is it the amount of money they invested in CB, is it that plus the legal costs involved in recovering it? If the lawyers are working on contingency is there really that much legal cost? If we take the total number of hosts, let's say 48,000 and 90% are illegal 43,200, and times that by the retail value of the product, let's say $5,000 for the sake of getting some kind of number. The total amount of money possibly owed is somewhere around 216 million. Now one KJ does not owe the whole bill but only his share of it the retail value of what was taken, $5,000.00. To try and make a handful pay for the sins of the majority is just a little unfair don't you think Athena?

So what is the point to all of these suits Rumbolt? If what you say is true then they have little or no effect upon the industry, and things continue as normal, or what passes for normal in Tennessee. Using the numbers of the summit there has been a 10% increase in the number of hosts in a down economy. That even though over 100 suits have been filed and more than 1,000 hosts and venues have settled or gone out of business, there has been more than four times that number that have come on line, 90 to 95% of which are illegal. The legal process is a failure because now there are more illegal hosts than when this process started 4 years ago. While the number of legal hosts has stayed constant or declined due to hosts leaving the industry. You are losing ground not gaining it, the only reason to file suits is in the hope they will drive sales.

"Athena, you rock- because you don't think before you post....

1) It's not a matter of whether SC has to allow the media shift of a track- BECAUSE THEY CAN'T- they don't OWN THE MUSIC- ASK THEM. "

Yes Joe I do rock thank you.

The karaoke manufactures will allow the media shift of the product they own (the lyric tracks) IF you pass an audit or purchase a product that does not require shifting.

I have attempted to get people to look at the difference before but so many prefer to remain stuck in their thinking because somebodies idea sounds viable . Maybe now that it appears the sleeping giants are getting involved they will weigh in and people will have to get their heads out of the sand. Speak to some publishers/publishing houses and many logical sounding arguments are shown to be dust.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Getting the sleeping giants involved might just be the death blow for commercial karaoke and do more damage to everyone than the certified hosts can even imagine. If it does bring everything down it was the hosts asking nagging questions as to current licensing and the manus hoping to get the orphan brands out of the market place, to increase their own market share that will be to blame.

Is it fair for just 1 kj to use someone elses property without ever properly paying for it? There is never an excuse for that.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

According to the judge in the Panama City suits the retail value of the stolen product is what is fair to restore to the injured plaintiff period. That award was upheld on appeal. It is fair to pay for what was taken nothing more nothing less rumbolt. In California the defendants that settled paid the $5,000.00 a piece. Forty one defendants were just dismissed and paid nothing. To my knowledge those defendants were not charged again. So they did not even pay the retail value of the stolen product. Is that right probably not but the retail value of the merchandize seems to be the way these suits are falling.

Asking questions of the publishers would never have been needed if so many didn't have an entitlement mentality that caused them to STEAL instead of buy karaoke tracks.

The publishers may well bring karaoke as an industry to a stand still while they make the changes needed to prevent the same problem from reoccurring....and if they do the cause was the THIEVES not those who asked the questions.

No one wanted to listen when they were told lawsuits were coming and the manufactures would win.

No one wanted to listen when it was shown that PRS licencing excluded USA/Canada.

No one wanted to listen when told the overseas manufactures would be forced to block US sales.

Put the blame where it belongs with those who stole the music(downloaded), traded tracks, bought or sold preloaded drives. Hopefully after the publishers and Manufactures have found a way to lock down the thieves karaoke will survive.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I challenge the "automatic" part of damaging a KJ's rep and earning capability. There is a lot of public information that people don't know about. Being named in a lawsuit doesn't mean that billboards get posted on the roads near a KJ's show. Someone has to go looking for it and then announce it broadly.

It is entirely possible for a KJ to be named in a lawsuit and resolve the issue without anyone but the KJ and the plaintiff knowing. In fact, this is the way things will typically go.

Except.......

There are people on the forums that spend a lot of time tracking down lawsuits, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with karaoke at all, then post it and make interpretations of it without having any credible background in the law.

THAT is what damages the reputation of KJ's (and themselves).

Regardless, there is plenty of proof right on the Sound Choice web site that you can get sued and not only keep your job, but get the tools to improve the quality of your karaoke library and even bolster your reputation and potentially increase your income.

http://www.soundchoicestore.com/certifi ... pg-69.html


-Chris

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-Chris

That is just too convenient to blame one group for what is taking place in the commercial karaoke industry today Athena. We are all responsible to varying degrees to the current state of things. Our outdated copyright laws are out of sink with the rest of the world that accepts PRS licensing. This blocking of overseas manufactures would seem to be a violation of free trade treaties signed by the U.S. with other countries. It will be interesting to see if our copyright laws are put on trial by some international trade court, and termed unfair trade practices. If they do mange to lock down the thieves, it just might be at the expense of the survival of the commercial karaoke industry. Then everyone will be out of business Athena and no karaoke. So what is the good if you end up destroying that which you are trying to maintain? These lawsuits by the manus are mostly for show to drive sales, and have little or no effect on the industry at large. Maybe just in a few enclaves like you have established in Florida has it been somewhat effective. As I recall there is only one certified host in all of Texas, as I remember there are a few more KJ's there than that.

Correction - ONE karaoke manufacturer will allow the media shift of the product they own (the lyric tracks) IF you pass an audit or purchase a product that does not require shifting.

-Chris

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-Chris

Did I just get called a thief?

-Chris

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-Chris

"It will be interesting to see if our copyright laws are put on trial by some international trade court, and termed unfair trade practices."

HUMMM that may be interesting...then none of the rest of the world would be able to get US music....Even an international trade court couldn't force US publishers to agree to terms they didn't want.

And No Chris.....two manufactures SC and CB did you miss Gretchen's post that audits will be resuming and to PM to be placed on the list. Who knows maybe any other US manufactures that make a product that needs to be shifted will follow suit as well.

DTE's product does not need to be shifted, Stellar's newer products do not need to be shifted, SC's Gem does not need to be shifted....seems as if the US manufactures have moved away from products that are as easy to pirate already.

Chris, the only ones who were called thieves are those who STOLE the product....only you know for sure if you are included...personally I do not think you are a thief.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I did not miss it. I PM'd her. But, until they actually start auditing, it is currently only one manufacturer.



I guess I need you to define your statement then. I read your "downloaded" comment to mean those that bought and paid for then downloaded tracks from online retailers.

-Chris

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-Chris