Karaoke Forums

You mean like the accredited large accounting firm Price Waterhouse that cooked the books for ENRON? In this day and age someone unfortunately has to check the checkers since ethical standards aren't what they once were.

No, like a SOFTWARE auditing firm, like those used by any other computer based I.P. generating company. OR better yet, a self diagnosing package where the results can be used by the KJ to help track inventory and or the results and proof of purchase sent in for review.
Let's keep something very important in mind here. Those WANTING an audit or even those accepting one are not people looking to steal so the audit is more for their benefit to make sure they are in compliance.
Microsoft has their own tool you can use to inventory your Microsoft products across your organization. It helps make sure users do not add things that the IT department doesn't know about and helps the IT department make sure they have the right amount of seats for machines.
Does anyone actually think a drive buying pirate would voluntarily submit to an audit?

Really it is not necessary for them to have to submit to an audit, now that they have an easy path to legality. All they have to do it turn themselves in before they are sued and either subscribe or lease or both. They will get their amnesty and get their new product for a fraction of what the old legal host paid for it.

Mr Boo has a few very good points...thank you (the only issue I see is that an outside agency would have to have BITE...and right now the only ones that have that option is the manus) .

You are also correct Lone Ranger, a pirate can decide to get legal by either buying discs, leasing a track package or subscribing to a service before they are caught and spend much less than we have, and you know what I am fine with that.....I do not begrudge anyone the cheaper prices in today's market. I do have a problem with those who have paid nothing (or $200 to $500 for a illegal HD).

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

If you are really fine with it Athena why did you tell me on another forum that amnesty is the wrong way to go, and that licensing an operator is not fair to legal hosts? It is only ok if the manus say it is ok? Sandman said amnesty and a license was ok if it cost $10,000.00 a year. A 99.00 a month subscription is hardly hitting the $10,000.00 price range. Either the concept of amnesty is right or wrong, it is not made right by the manus saying it is right.

Very simply because you were speaking of a small fee to pay for amnesty...what I stand behind is not amnesty.....the pirates have to purchase/lease/rent the product they wish to use and agree to be monitored...I do not suggest offering a pirate a licence to steal. There is a HUGE difference.

Your suggestion was pay a small fee and be able to continue to use all the product they had stolen(and hence encourage further theft).

If a KJ Buys discs..they can use what is on those discs....
If a KJ leases a product...they can use what is included in that lease....
If a KJ subscribes to a service...they can use the product included in the subscription.
Buying/Leasing/subscribing does not allow a KJ to use material NOT included in that Purchase/Lease/Rental.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Complete amnesty and escape from prosecution at any price should be wrong. What difference what price is paid to avoid prosecution? It doesn't change the fact an illegal act has been committed and the guilty is able to buy their way out. You compare pirates to shop lifters, how many of these criminals are released if they pay for what they are caught with? I really don't see the HUGE difference except in the amount the injured party is willing to accept to make things go away. If the concept of amnesty is really that bad then it should be equally bad in all circumstances. In old English Law if you killed a person you had to pay his or her family a death geld or payment to avoid being declared outlaw and subject to being put to death by the victim's family. It is still murder. By the way Athena just who is going after the hosts for material not covered in the lease or subscription after the two legal process manus have extracted their payments?

HUMM lets see
how many shoplifters pay only the amount they stole...well in my area very few....but you know I would be ok with that guideline...lets see pirate 1 has 100,000,00 tracks at and average of 1.99 that works for me (and like the shoplifter they don't get to keep the spoils of the theft either)

Who should go after hosts for other brands....humm the rights holders/owners....if the Manu still can they should if they can't because they no longer exist or have abandoned the product then those who hold upline rights...in this case the publishers

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

The publishers if they ever do something are going to work from the top down, they won't start bottom feeding, not enough money to interest them for what it would cost to recover. They will sue manus like they have already sued SC and work their way down the food chain. Size does matter.

They HAVE been working top down for over a decade....from what I surmise from my communications with publishers they are about ready to "set a few examples"

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I'm shaking in my cowboy boots. Of course they are going to tell you they are going to do something, what are they supposed to communicate they are going to sit on their backsides, that wouldn't scare anyone. You should be concerned they will go after the big venues and the multi-riggers first, mom and pop single rigs will be flying too low to the ground.

Y U Shakin' ?

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Just from laughing.

Please ignore this post. I deleted and moved it to a new Topic Thread due to major Hijack of the OP.

...Just a "IMHO" post. Between this thread and the other one titled "Why Copyright Law Is Crippling American Karaoke Companies..." I've seen several opinions/ideas thrown out by others. We've had the auditing process in place for awhile and other Karaoke Association groups come and go in the past and fail. Isn't about time for a change?

...Don't you ever get sick and tired of hearing the following lines/subjects posted over and over again, such as... "Another KJ is being sued." "Another Karaoke Company is being sued." The old line from the Karaoke Manufacturers "Just trust us, we have licensed agreements to remake those tracks, just buy and use them." "Downloads are legal...No they're not." "You need to do your homework and find out." (Yes, I have but I no longer have the time to be on the phone and internet 24/7 trying to get in touch with all of the original copyright holders to find out if "X" Karaoke Manufacturer/s have an agreement to remake "X" Karaoke Tracks). Then of course the postings about KJ Pirates, "We have so many pirates in my area and they have 100,000 plus songs and it's not fair! Somebody needs to stop them!" Also, the subject concerning the "No-Fly-List" and who's on it.

...By no means can I deny that those subjects aren't interesting, informing and entertaining at times but the responses are almost as repetitive as the subject matter that gets posted over and over. It's not that I don't enjoy reading and sometimes responding but will we ever get past these subjects concerning the use of illegal or legal karaoke tracks without the "Fish Net Lawsuit" feeling, even when you're operating legally or just merely wanting to shift Karaoke Tracks with or without an audit?

...Like others, I just want a "One Stop Shop" and what I mean by this, is one Association to do audits, to keep a check on all KJs (their library and where they're performing), the Venues (when they're hosting Karaoke and what KJ they're using) and a "This or That Karaoke Manufacturer" has licensed the following tracks for sale and use at Commercial Venues (so we know the Karaoke Tracks that we've purchased or will be purchasing are legal to use).

...A couple of months back a poster started a topic titled: "Karaoke Association?" Some of us commented on it, including myself (page 2, 8th post down).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27725&start=20

...Again, the technology is there. If not, I'm sure someone could write up the programs to be used for the Association, if someone or a group would just pull all the pieces together. By the way, I really don't want to see another Association formed and dominated by the Karaoke Manufacturers, it needs to be made up of a non-bias group but one that can represent Commercial Venues, Original Copyrights Holders, Karaoke Manufacturers and KJs. Sure, it would take a great deal of going through the legalities, money and national awareness, to start one but just do the math, the fees that could be collected from the Commercial Venues and KJs, it starts adding up into the millions. Personally, I just want to see all of us make money and do it legally.... Rant over. Not trying to offend anyone.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure an association can't enforce laws. DJs have to deal with the same thing, there are certainly those who pirate music as well as karaoke. IMO, there will never be an end to karaoke piracy. I could take you to 25 karaoke shows within 50 miles of my house, several of them who have been named in legal action by SC and still going strong. If they do finally get taken out, there will be 10 more to take their places in a month or two. It's too easy to get the content and the ones who do it are willing to gamble that they won't get caught.

The barrier to enter the industry is low and two manufactures can't be everywhere. As soon as they sweep an area and move on, the pirates will come right back in and the venues don't care, they want cheap entertainment. There will also always be a Karaoke Kurrents or a Fast Trax to put out content and then vanish, who enforces that? Correct, nobody.

I've watched a lawsuit in this state where ASCAP HAS in fact shut down a bar - or at least had their liquor license revoked. No I cannot find the citation, but it was approx 12 years ago (was talked about heavily on the JOLT forum). The bar refused to pay their PRO fees, ASCAP nailed them AND the kj that was running illegal copied music to start with.

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Isn't that the whole point, you gotta pay your dues if you want to sing the blues? You will be able to run your little show as long as you pay off the right people whether is the manus or the publishers or who ever has their hand out. In a way this reminds me of Vietnam, we used to joke how corrupt their government was. A farmer trying to sell his rice in a local town or city had to bring it to market. As he traveled each corrupt official along the road to market got his cut, when the farmer got to town he had little or no rice to sell. I just wonder if this karaoke industry is any less corrupt, if hosts have to start paying off everyone just to be able to do a show just how many hosts can afford to pay off these various demands?

The issue that would not allow a third party association to have bite is with the karaoke manufactures. They will not be willing to sign over the enforcement rights as song writers do. Then again, if this agency was along the exact same lines as a ASCAP, or WAS ASCAP, then the rights issue would jump right over the karaoke manufactures. I am not advocating this (yet) but just thinking out loud.

Maybe another function of this Association would be to take up the fight to simplify the copyright laws with concern for karaoke. Lets face it, UK manufactures have a total up hill fight in getting things done and the Producers are able to rail road the laws any way they want with little or no opposition. Things need to change there and fast if the karaoke industry plans to be competitive in the US, top to bottom.

For one thing, the "no fly list" needs to go away and fast. There should not be an option where a writer can block karaoke in the US just as they can't block public performance. The issue should only be were the fees paid to be able to produce and sell it.