Karaoke Forums

Well, I guess this is a bit confusing for everyone, but I see your rotation at the end of the night and I guess the only difference is where you insert them. As long as those new singers are at the end of the rotation at the end of the night, in the order in which their first slip was presented, then that's all that really matters, in terms of a fair rotation.

The correct thing to do is - "If a new singer is interjected into the rotation ahead of an existing singer, then that singer must be moved to the end of the rotation, at the end of the current round and prior to the next round."

I swear by that rule. If there are any KJs out there that don't subscribe to that school of thought, you might want to think about the points that have been made.

_________________
I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I don't buy that at all. However many singers get inserted before they hear Randy and Darlene sing, that's how many they have been bumped. Doesn't matter if they are "before" or "after".

I am not saying it is wrong, but the fact is it does penalize the people that came early. I could see how someone could think it is not fair to listen to a singer who can then leave, never having heard the listener sing.

The most egregious situation is the first rotation, and it is one which will make me stop coming to a show. That's where the host keeps the first rotation open forever, meaning people can show up at 10:00pm and sing in the first rotation, making people who showed up at 8:30 or so wait until 10:30 or later to sing their second song. That is why I close the first rotation at 9:30 (for a 9:00pm start).

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I've always used the sing one-bring one method. That means there is no "Rotation" as such. It's a list and a new singer always goes at the bottom of the list. If you don't have a request in you don't have a place on the list. One singer may have as many friends as they like join in. I like to have the whole bar singing if possible.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

This is basically how I run mine. Otherwise they go in front of someone who was already in line. That's my thoughts.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I use a whiteboard as a visual aid for singing patrons that shows their position in the rotation, and for those that stay relatively sober enough to see/read, it works well, and allows everyone to see the consistency and fairness of the rotation. I have always subscribed to the new singers added to the end of the rotation method and it has usually served me well. The "pop in for a song and a beer" folks still come in, and more often than not when they arrive we are at the bottom half of a rotation so their wait is fairly small anyway. There will always be the obnoxious bribe attempt, but the trick is just to remain consistent and not compromise your integrity for a few measley bucks.

It all depends on the crowd for me whether I sing or not, as in the size of it. At first I'll generally let a round go before I jump in above the first singer's second song, then I stay there as new singers come in ahead of me.

Each person gets one song at a time. Their next song goes in line after the song they're singing is finished to allow others a chance to get in sooner. They can bring their friends up with them and the friend doesn't lose their turn, and both can bring each other up but each song belongs to one or the other.

Once I hit about a 45 minute to an hour wait I take myself out of the list and will only do one big crowd pleaser (right now it's Gangnam Style, and has been since October when I first learned it) around 11 or so.

If we fill up I'll never jump in and take a slot because it means someone won't be able to get up to sing at the end of the night because of me.

I also try not to spend much time between songs. I'll call the next singer on standby to be ready and try and buzz through. Less time spent between songs = more singers throughout the night.

As far as keeping a strictly fair, first come first serve rotation, I've learned by trial and error that it doesn't always work out to everyone's advantage. In general, YES. First come will generally be first served.

BUT:

If a celebrity rolls in and wants to sing, they get royalty treatment immediately. No club owner wants to hear his/her business name attached to a TMZ report where (insert celeb name here) was snubbed and told they couldn't be fit in. Generally speaking, a celebrity is going to blow your club up anyway and everyone's going to love whatever they do, so they always get royal treatment with me. Note: That rule doesn't apply to second cousins of celebrities or people who were almost picked for The Voice. There's WAY too many of them running around. ;p

If a large party has a special favor I will usually cave in within reason. Let's assume there's a huge party of 50 and several satellite tables of four or five. It's a no brainer that the large group will be monopolizing the list already, so I will try within reason to help out the smaller groups as best I can to get some mic time. On the other hand, the large group is the big fish in the till so if the birthday girl/boy waited forever to put a song in and the group is begging for me to get 'em up I usually will. On a rare occasion grandma needs to leave early because she doesn't stay up past 10 anymore, so I'll let grandma sing for everyone before she leaves. Things like that. You've gotta' feel out your crowd.

Big tippers - the people who roll up and throw a $20 in the jar to get up sooner - can be a moral dilemma. I choose to look at it like this; If they're throwing $20 in the jar, how much is their tab? If they're big spenders we probably want them to come back. First and foremost my job is to make the owners of the club money, therefore catering to a big spender is definitely a good idea. It helps me, of course, it helps the server who will benefit from a pleased whale (that's bar talk for big spenders), the bartenders who will be tipped out by the servers who made a nice extra wad of cash... and the club owners who likely sold more product (booze). Yes, I'll let someone jump the line a bit for cash. So does Universal Studios. But I won't let it get out of control, either. I've turned down my fair share of cash in favor of not screwing over people who have been waiting all night and someone walks in the door trying to get a song in right at the end. Also, whales are pretty rare in the first place, so it's not as if I'm consistantly leaving everyone out to dry that's been waiting patiently for their turn. You have to feel it out and do what seems right at the time.

Anyway, that's my long ramble on where I fit myself in and overall rotation fairness. No system is perfect but after 16 years I feel I've found the best way for me and it's rare that I hear any grumbling. It's a wide enough line between allowing complete anarchy and becoming an overbearing rules and policies nazi to allow a little wiggle room, keep the patrons AND the boss happy and make sure everyone has as much fun as possible.

[quote="Kevin Race"]

Big tippers - the people who roll up and throw a $20 in the jar to get up sooner - can be a moral dilemma. I choose to look at it like this; If they're throwing $20 in the jar, how much is their tab? If they're big spenders we probably want them to come back. First and foremost my job is to make the owners of the club money, therefore catering to a big spender is definitely a good idea. It helps me, of course, it helps the server who will benefit from a pleased whale (that's bar talk for big spenders), the bartenders who will be tipped out by the servers who made a nice extra wad of cash... and the club owners who likely sold more product (booze). Yes, I'll let someone jump the line a bit for cash. So does Universal Studios. But I won't let it get out of control, either. I've turned down my fair share of cash in favor of not screwing over people who have been waiting all night and someone walks in the door trying to get a song in right at the end. Also, whales are pretty rare in the first place, so it's not as if I'm consistantly leaving everyone out to dry that's been waiting patiently for their turn. You have to feel it out and do what seems right at the time.

20 bucks won't move you up at my show. Not gonna happen, don't want to pizz off the others in the rotation, and the regulars. I want them to keep coming back.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

I totally get where you're coming from. I used to have that policy myself when I worked smaller venues, but once I started working in the big venues in L.A. the game changed. We do have a few people that qualify as regulars that we see repeatedly, but it works more like a theme park here. We get large groups, usually birthdays, that come in nightly along with a few smaller satellite tables. The large groups will come back or members of a group will round up a completely different group and come back a month or two later if they're happy, so treating them well, especially when they prove that they're whales is very important.

I'm also pretty honest with everyone about how it works. Some clubs here have a tip to skip policy posted in their books. I don't go anywhere near that far with it, but the regulars know that sometimes people want to buy their way up. It's all part of the game out here and they know I'm still maintaining a level of fairness and keeping the club's interest in mind. It was totally foreign to me when I moved out here but I've seen KJs and clubs try to eliminate tip to skip here and it has always ended badly for them with more business lost than kept. Like I said, you gotta feel it out in my situation, but I totally understand your situation as well and I say, Bravo! You'll get more tips for keeping it 100% straight than you would for not doing so.

_________________
Instrumental Breaks were made for Air Guitar!!

@ Kevin...

Just a quick question...

What's a Satellite Table? I have never heard that term before.
Is that anything like a small party of people (2-5) occupying 1 table?

I am familiar with the term "Whale," but I have never heard the term used in relationship to a Bar or Restaurant. I have heard it more commonly used to refer to a big time gambler in a Casino.

You know what? The OP asked for a definition of "Fair Rotation". The answer?

The rotation that gets the very least customer complaints.

Since my system ( first come. first serve- no insertions for show hoppers) garners absolutely ZERO complaints, my guess is that my way is best. Disagree? Explain.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I disagree. My way gets zero complaints as well. So mine is the best way. We both can't be best. Therefore, I win because I said so.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

LMFAOAPMP!!!!!

It's only my opinion, and it is not entirely popular, but a host should not be singing. Here's my "Unlesses":

1) You have less than 5 singers
2) You're asked to do a duet
3) You don't have a lot of singers (10+) and the overwhelming majority are VERY bad

Otherwise, you are taking a song from your customers. Think about it - at the end of the night when you throw away a stack of slips you're not going to get to, how many could you have gotten to had you not sang your songs?

And as far as tip-to-skip goes, I would not allow it. But, I can see the point where the bar wants to appease the dumba$$es a little. That dummy that wants to tip you $50 is probably the same one that buys shots for many people at a time and tips the bartender well, too.

_________________
I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

What if the KJ is just as bad as those "overwhelming majority of VERY bad" singers are?

I would agree. All zeros have the best.

_________________
KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

To queball, you are correct in your assessment of a satellite table. As far as the term "whales" goes, the definition has carried over here in L.A. to include huge spenders at the bar.

To TroyVnd27, I agree with all your unlesses, and they sound a lot like what I tried to clarify in an earlier post. For the record, I believe a host SHOULD sing at least once or twice a show if he's capable of doing a fair job. It helps build a repoir with your customers. I'm asked to sing regularly and have had a few whales tip me huge to do so at times, but yes, once the line starts getting too long and especially when the list is close to filling up for the night I won't go near the mic unless a lot of people are clammering for it. I've had to let people down many, many times and explain exactly what you stated, that it would take a song away from someone else who's been waiting if I jumped in and did one.

I'm not too keen on the term dumba$$es with tip-to-skippers. Again, it's a much different game in Los Angeles than in most other places. One club that advertises as being America's first karaoke bar ever has a tip-to-skip list printed in the front of the book. $5 - within a half hour, $10 - within 5 songs, $20 - within 3 songs, or something close to that. That's going a little too far for my taste. But here people are accustomed to getting what they want and paying handsomely for it, and it's rare that their generosity doesn't encompass all other areas of the business such as bar, tables and even the door. There are plenty of people here who, although they may not technically be celebrities, are very influential in the entertainment business. To displease them would be a costly mistake for the establishment. Luckily for fairness' sake they are few and infrequent. I've never had more than 2 in any given shift.

_________________
Instrumental Breaks were made for Air Guitar!!

I take no bribes. Yes we are there to keep people there and hopefully coming back, but lining my pocket is typically not the way to do it and yes the regulars that do come in nightly & support the bar will notice. 1 guy who flashes their money is typically not the person that will become a regular in my experience.
I will fire anyone of my hosts if I hear of them taking a bribe to bump someone!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I believe in putting new singers at the end of the rotation. Since I used to KJ at bars more than any other venue, this will (hopefully) encourage the late comers into patronzing the bar to make the people who pay me happy.

However, when a rotation breaks down later in the evening, I'm not opposed to throwing in new blood at random.

Or, if I got bribed with drinks to bump somebody up - z!

_________________
Karaoke should be a selfish pleasure.
Check out my Facebook page "Griff's Karaoke Adventures" to see how many tunes I can do without repeating!